When Bible Software Marketing Crosses a Theological Line
I want to lodge a complaint (and suggestion) with Logos/Faithlife as a company:
The post 6 Reasons That Shouldn’t Stop You from Getting Logos 6 (however unintentionally) undermines important values of sufficiency and wise financial stewardship and promotes instead harmful values of materialism and overspending--especially in its reasons #2 and #4.
I really think Logos needs to reconsider these sorts of approaches in marketing--i.e., stop advertising how it enables overspending and quit encouraging the continuous accumulation of more and more and more and more books. I see this kind of angle from Logos over and over--this particular post came to me in an email yesterday, but it's just one of many.
Whatever happened to sufficiency mentality and only spending what you have?
Of course users are free to act on those instincts--but Logos should not be encouraging its users to do otherwise.
I hope Logos weighs its messaging more carefully in the future. Or if they already are weighing it carefully, I hope they just flat out stop this kind of messaging.
So as to not make this forum post any longer, I elaborate here.
Abram K-J: Pastor, Writer, Freelance Editor
Blog: Words on the Word
Comments
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Faithlife is a business. They are using their resources to promote their product. I didn't see anything in the post that is promoting financial irresponsibility.
I'm pretty sure you can opt out of mailing if they are offensive to you.
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This thread seems a bit 'below the belt'. Using a Logos site to criticize a blog while pointing to your own blog.
Chutzpah?
(And what did you expect the less than wealthy to do in the absence of a payment plan? I thought Logos might be theologically helping them study early.)
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise--not my intention to be below the belt, nor to promote my blog. The full text of what I wrote is below the line on this post, so people can skip the hyperlink and read the content--I just didn't want to start a conversation with tons of text.
Is Logos/Faithlife above reproach or something? This is a perfectly good use of the forums.
Steve, yes, I know, I know. I can unsubscribe, quit reading, etc. Saying, "That means you only pay a fraction up front, pay for the rest over time, and start using your new software right away" promotes fiscal irresponsibility, especially when it costs you more to do so, yet what is highlighted is "interest-free" (ha!).
I consider myself an invested user--and I really object (on theological grounds, which is of concern to a business run by Christians) to both of the approaches (#2 and #4) in their original post, which pop up frequently.
What do I hope to accomplish? Honestly, I'm curious to hear if others feel the same, but regardless, I hope Faithlife lays back on the "you must have more at all costs, even if you have to buy now and pay later" mentality. They're a business, but with core values that should be better informing how they market.
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The Logos promo/blog post has gone too far in trying to convince people to override their objections to spend more:
2. I already have enough books.
Even if you think you’ll never read through everything in your library, adding more books will make it more powerful and increase the value of the books you already own.
In other words, “If you buy more books to search, you’ll have more books to search.”
Logos: do we not already succumb enough to an insufficiency mentality in the world? I don’t have enough. I need to have more. My Bible study and teaching prep is good, but if I just had that one more commentary series, life would be awesome!
I’m as guilty of this mentality as anyone (probably more so)–and I want to fight it. Bible software marketing copy that taps into the culturally-rooted materialism that Christians are supposed to stand against? Not okay.
One other “reason” gave me pause:
4. I can’t afford a new base package.
If a base package isn’t in your budget right now, you have a couple of options.
You can take advantage of interest-free payment plans and spread out the cost over up to 24 months. That means you only pay a fraction up front, pay for the rest over time, and start using your new software right away.
Let me help with the rewrite:
If a base package isn’t in your budget right now, you have one option: don’t buy one right now.
“Our mission is to serve the church,” you say. How does enabling and even encouraging churchgoers and pastors to take on new debt serve the church?
I think it’s time for some serious evaluation of the sort of marketing mantras that (however unintentionally) undermine Kingdom values of sufficiency and wise financial stewardship and promote instead the harmful values of incessant accumulation and overspending.
Saying, “What I have is enough,” and curbing credit-card-style overspending are actually two excellent reasons not to upgrade to Logos 6.
Abram K-J: Pastor, Writer, Freelance Editor
Blog: Words on the Word0 -
Denise said:
(And what did you expect the less than wealthy to do in the absence of a payment plan? I thought Logos might be theologically helping them study early.)
Um... how about not buy? The "wealthy" who can buy all at once spend less than the "less than wealthy"--whose payment plan costs them more in total.
Abram K-J: Pastor, Writer, Freelance Editor
Blog: Words on the Word0 -
'How about not buy?' Now that's even more below the belt. I'll tell you why.
In my younger years, I was dirt poor. Put myself through college working at Red Lobster. Hard to believe. But Sears sold me a BW TV on credit. When I had no credit. I was thankful for that. Now, that was a TV.
Logos is not a TV. If you think it's not worth it to the less well-off, but it's worth to you, then something's wrong. Theologically wrong. Payment plans are often the only solution.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I don't think this post is below the belt at all. I think it makes a valid point. I love Logos, but based on my experience their marketing puts a bad taste in the mouths of many people.
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I do agree with Abram K-J. First I just thought it is "American". And by the way, it does come across as intrusive to non-Americans to the point that they stay away. To be honest, if somebody for the first time gets introduced to Logos and for example watches the "what's new" videos and constantly gets hit by Faithlife's selling approach, it causes you (at least non-Americans) to stay away.
But as Abram points out, I don't think it is just an American selling strategy. It does undermine important Christian values. Depending on one's personality it might even further greed, wanting to have more and more books. And that is not what a Bible study software should deliver. It is not just about gaining knowledge etc. it is about an encounter with God. Now I know that we are personally responsible for how we respond to whatever comes across our ways. And I also want to point out that despite Faithlife's selling strategy their prices are more than fair, they give us great deals. But as a Christian company, being a business or not, I too would appreciate Faithlife to reconsider the way they market their products.
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To me, the marketing hype had crossed a line of tastefulness a while back. I don't see that it has crossed a theological line.
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Sorry, kiddos. I've been a noisy critic of Logos marketing for a long time.
But I'd put this thread far worse. Using someone else's platform to market your own blog. And implying it's theologically inappropriate to use a pay plan.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
Using someone else's platform to market your own blog.
I can't tell if you're baiting me or if you just didn't read my reply to you when you said this once before.
Denise said:And implying it's theologically inappropriate to use a pay plan.
I can't tell if you're baiting me or if you just didn't read anything I wrote about this. But to be clear--I'm not talking about a payment plan as such. I'm talking about (a) the aggressive marketing of a payment plan (b) which really targets the people who can least afford it (c) when this is done by a company that espouses (and sells resources that espouse) virtues like good stewardship, spend only what you have, etc.
Logos just said, "I can’t afford a new base package" is specifically not a reason to upgrade--something that "shouldn't stop you." (And they say that often.) I'm saying--payment plan or not, if you can't afford it, you can't afford it. And Logos shouldn't try to convince you otherwise. It's not appropriate.
Sears? Sure--but that's a company with (presumably) a different set of core values when it comes to worldview, perspective on money, etc.
Abram K-J: Pastor, Writer, Freelance Editor
Blog: Words on the Word0 -
Schumitinu said:
I do agree with Abram K-J. First I just thought it is "American". And by the way, it does come across as intrusive to non-Americans to the point that they stay away. To be honest, if somebody for the first time gets introduced to Logos and for example watches the "what's new" videos and constantly gets hit by Faithlife's selling approach, it causes you (at least non-Americans) to stay away.
But as Abram points out, I don't think it is just an American selling strategy. It does undermine important Christian values. Depending on one's personality it might even further greed, wanting to have more and more books. And that is not what a Bible study software should deliver. It is not just about gaining knowledge etc. it is about an encounter with God. Now I know that we are personally responsible for how we respond to whatever comes across our ways. And I also want to point out that despite Faithlife's selling strategy their prices are more than fair, they give us great deals. But as a Christian company, being a business or not, I too would appreciate Faithlife to reconsider the way they market their products.
A helpful perspective--and put well.
Abram K-J: Pastor, Writer, Freelance Editor
Blog: Words on the Word0 -
Denise said:
Sorry, kiddos. I've been a noisy critic of Logos marketing for a long time.
But I'd put this thread far worse. Using someone else's platform to market your own blog. And implying it's theologically inappropriate to use a pay plan.
Abram's blog gets plenty of hits. He doesn't need to market it. This is a ridiculous, unfounded accusation. You disagree with his perspective, and that's fine, but don't be a jackass.
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Abram K-J said:
I really think Logos needs to reconsider these sorts of approaches in marketing--i.e., stop advertising how it enables overspending and quit encouraging the continuous accumulation of more and more and more and more books. I see this kind of angle from Logos over and over--this particular post came to me in an email yesterday, but it's just one of many.
Whatever happened to sufficiency mentality and only spending what you have?
I'm sorry. Logos markets to adults. If adults can't control their spending because of assertive advertising, the problem isn't with the advertising.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Sorry Brian, but you need to study your LXX a little more.
First, you made an unfounded assertion (his motives) to offset what you suggested was my unfounded assertion. But you did not notice the third which was the point where you could use help from the LXX .... his unfounded assertion.
But ignoring that, junior high boy's name calling? You thought it worked?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Is it ever the right thing to do for a church to finance a building program? How about the OP spending his blog space correcting the theological errors of the church-at-large before he attacks a for-profit private company? Next thing you know he will be correcting the forum posters.Brian W. Davidson said:I don't think this post is below the belt at all. I think it makes a valid point. I love Logos, but based on my experience their marketing puts a bad taste in the mouths of many people.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Abram K-J said:
I'm saying--payment plan or not, if you can't afford it, you can't afford it. And Logos shouldn't try to convince you otherwise. It's not appropriate.
I hope you don't have a house mortgage or a car payment.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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When I read the original blog it didn't bother me although I think I see what Abram is trying to say. Certainly there is a fine line in marketing between encouraging people to make a purchase but not encouraging them to overspend. I think the responsibility is not so much with the company (Faithlife) as it is with each individual.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Brian W. Davidson said:
Abram's blog gets plenty of hits. He doesn't need to market it. This is a ridiculous, unfounded accusation. You disagree with his perspective, and that's fine, but don't be a jackass.
Brian, there are different synonyms for a donkey. Calling someone one of them (the one you used) is very offensive to some people. It may go well if you edit your post and use a different word.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Consumerism risks making the Bible as another product for consumption; commentaries collection can become idols if these books are for building ego instead of helping us closer to God.
In consumerism, freedom is often equated with consumer's choice; and the consumer's need are unlimited and insatiable (Craig Bartholomew. Christ and Consumerism. http://www.reformationalpublishingproject.com/pdf_books/Scanned_Books_PDF/ChristandConsumerism.pdf) As we build our collection of books, we risk being enslaved by our consumerist instinct while forgetting the kingdom's perspective.
My collection of Logos book is not small. Each time I spent another $200 on a new commentary series, I could have given the same amount of money to my church or to a charitable organization or to someone in need.
As much as I enjoy Logos the software, I am saddened by its aggressive tactics. I don't think this is to their benefit in the long run because the company will start losing the good will of the users. Because they are behaving more like an aggressive profit seeking company rather than a Christian organization, more and more they will be treated as such by their customers.
When I use Logos, I turn off all their ads so that I can focus on the spiritual fruit of the Word without materialistic commercial distraction.
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Abram K-J said:
Sears? Sure--but that's a company with (presumably) a different set of core values when it comes to worldview, perspective on money, etc.
And you know this how? My experience with a college strongly supported by Sears, while admitted very old new, would belie this statement.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rich DeRuiter said:
I'm sorry. Logos markets to adults. If adults can't control their spending because of assertive advertising, the problem isn't with the advertising.
I totally agree with you and disagree at the same time.
I agree because personally I totally loathe the nanny state worldview where one group of adults treats other adults like immature children.
Do we really want to condescend to other adults like they're weak out of control drug addicts with no self control or personal responsibility?
Yet Biblical we know are our brother's keepers, especially of fellow Christians.
We've all heard sermons on 1 Corinthians 8:9
The sad fact is there really is severely broken people in the world who need others to help them,
but how many of these severely broken people are Logos customers? Seriously?
Is that really the argument? That some people in massive debt are so addicted to Logos, that they're going to make their families suffer just to buy a new base package?
I would suspect what would be far more likely is people who don't manage their finances well will often buy things not foreseeing that they're not in a position to buy those products.
That would be far more common that addiction in my opinion, though I'd love to hear others' thoughts on it.
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Paul Lee said:
When I use Logos, I turn off all their ads so that I can focus on the spiritual fruit of the Word without materialistic commercial distraction.
How do you do that?
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Rich DeRuiter said:
I'm sorry. Logos markets to adults. If adults can't control their spending because of assertive advertising, the problem isn't with the advertising.
My thoughts entirely.
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Rich DeRuiter said:
I'm sorry. Logos markets to adults. If adults can't control their spending because of assertive advertising, the problem isn't with the advertising.
Well, given the number of adults in this thread who can't control their tongues ... come on, name calling in a discussion which per its title belongs on christiandiscourse; per its logic implies that the Logos base package should include
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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My goal is to stay savvy and healthy as long as possible. One month in a nursing home may cost 5000 dollars here. If I spend 100 dollars for a book and read it, I'll postpone my entry to the nursing home for one month. Thus I save 4900 dollars every time when I add a book to my Logos library.
Another issue is that I may sell it after 20 years and get some money or just donate it to a 3rd world student and be happy.
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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Paul Lee said:
they are behaving more like an aggressive profit seeking company rather than a Christian organization
There may be organizations that are run by Christians, but there is not such thing as a "Christian organization".
Logos is a for-profit business that is run by professing Christians. If they do not make a profit, we have no resources to purchase.
Here in the States we have a name for a non-aggressive for profit company. It is usually called unprofitable of even bankrupt.
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I think that what some are missing is the distinction between a ministry and a business. Faithlife is a business, not a ministry, and should be evaluated as a business, not held to the standards of a ministry.
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Denise was being a jerk, and that is all I was pointing out. Maybe I should have used that word instead. Wasn't trying to name call, but simply point out that you can disagree without being a jerk. I'm done with this thread.
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Jack Caviness said:Paul Lee said:
they are behaving more like an aggressive profit seeking company rather than a Christian organization
There may be organizations that are run by Christians, but there is not such thing as a "Christian organization".
Logos is a for-profit business that is run by professing Christians. If they do not make a profit, we have no resources to purchase.
Here in the States we have a name for a non-aggressive for profit company. It is usually called unprofitable of even bankrupt.
With this in the mind the greatest contribution of this business maybe the endless marketing campaign that never lets you forget just how limited your 3k library is.
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Many times I have read through controversies in the forum.
What I have seen here , has often left a sad impression.
It reminds me of a Christian sports car driver I criticized
a few years ago because he was driving too fast in a residential area with kids.
I was friendly but clear in the matter, but he was aggressive
and did not accept the criticism. Dear friends, we are all responsible to God, who is love.
I am convinced, HE wants to be the standard in every forum where Christians meet with their
discussants. I try to practice it in my daily life.
If we follow 1. Corithians 13, we all will have good guidelines for a controversial discussion.
So let us turn back. It would make me no pleasure to stay away from such debates entirely
because I would have to fear the sarcasm of brothers and sisters ...
Yes, we are adults. But are we also mature in Christ? After reading some of these posts,
I doubt it.
May our good God help and bless us.
Hermann0 -
Well, Brian, you're making progress. You're out of your junior high days and now into female vocabulary. I would opine that the OP should have stuck with his blog and garner the wondrous traffic you mention.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Hermann, thank you for your post.
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Delete.
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Jack Caviness said:
There may be organizations that are run by Christians, but there is not such thing as a "Christian organization".
Logos is a for-profit business that is run by professing Christians. If they do not make a profit, we have no resources to purchase.
Here in the States we have a name for a non-aggressive for profit company. It is usually called unprofitable of even bankrupt.
You are correct. I have learned that Logos is not a parachurch organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parachurch_organization) which places discipleship and missional responsibility over that of Mammon. It is so sad that selling Bible and theological works is no different from selling a latte or an IPad.
I understand Logos need to make a profit to sustain its operation. However, overaggressiveness can be detrimental to its long term viability. There is a list of overaggressive companies that has forgotten their customers in the pursuit of profit. The list includes Lehman Brothers, Sunbeam, Arthur Anderson, Countrywide Financial. China is also very also aggressive too; and see what happened to her environment. Don't let materialistic pollution seep into our source of living water.
"Greed is good", according to Gordon Gekko. Jesus warned, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions”. Who is right?
Enrollment to seminaries and attendance to churches have unfortunately been decreasing. Potential customer base for Logos is constrained by this demographic reality. Two of the traditions that Logos try to market to- Lutheran and Anglicans- also suffer from significant attendance decline. Expanding into different traditions would likely have resulted in minimal increase in customer's base. Logos tried to finance their expansion by extracting more sales from the existing customer base. In the meantime, other software companies are getting their act together. These companies tend to focus more on the evangelical audience (which has suffered less attendance decline than mainline congregations), and they are able to offer better deals due to lower cost structure. The technological gap between the software engines of the new competitors and Logos has decreased.
Perhaps the following example is representative of Logos consumer behavior: I wanted to read Carson's Matthew commentary in the Expositor's Commentary but I wasn't interested in the rest of the volumes. The only option in Logos is to buy the whole set; and that's how I started branching out into other software programs. Later on, I wanted to read NIVAC volumes on the minor prophets: and I was able to get the whole set for less than $250 instead of Logos price. After I use these other programs, I realize that if I don't mind the minor inconvenience of using a combination of softwares, I will have access of the books I want at a substantial discount. Logos need to stop people like me from using multiple platforms by offering more competitive pricing. If Logos wants to be aggressive, the first thing they need to have to do is to lower their cost in doing business so that they can hold the competitors in check. Once their customers start diversifying their software engines, it will have long term consequence to its future growth prospect and viability. They will make more money in the long term if customers stay in Logos eco-system.
One day, after buying more and more books in Logos, I have an epiphany: "Knowledge puffs up while love builds up." Reading more books will not make me a better Christian if it all ends up in the head. I want Logos to thrive; if they fail, it would be a real headache to access my books.
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I completely agree with those who have said it’s the responsibility of the purchaser to wade through whatever marketing. No one has to do anything, we are all adults who can make our own decisions, etc.
But that doesn’t let Faithlife of the hook for how they market. It’s not as if they have no control over their messaging.
Business or not, “Christian organization” or not (if there is such a thing), Logos delivers Bible study products, so if, for example, one takes a biblical worldview to speak against the promotion of accumulating debt or a hoarder’s mentality, then my original points stand.
And if you want to take theology out of the question (not possible—but let’s pretend for a moment it is), how about evaluating Logos according to their own mission to “serve the church”? Constantly and aggressively encouraging churchgoers and pastors to deepen debt (with payment plans) does not do that. Note well: I wasn’t criticizing having a payment plan option—I’m saying the continual and aggressive mentioning of those payment plans (especially as an objection to, “But I really don’t have the money”) is what’s the matter. I believe that Logos really needs to tone that down.
And remember—my complaint is not about being for-profit, about spending money on marketing, but about Faithlife’s approach that specifically seeks to tear down common-sense and even the values-based reasons people have for not buying.When I beta tested Logos 6 I thought: This is a cutting-edge approach (esp. the Interactives) that could be the future of Bible software that every other software tries to get on board with. But I suspect that, if they haven't already, Faithlife will discover this particular marketing approach to be counter-productive.
I simply have higher expectations for this organization.
I think Rene Atchley put it well: “…the endless marketing campaign that never lets you forget just how limited your 3k library is.”
Does anyone defending Logos here really not find that to be problematic?Abram K-J: Pastor, Writer, Freelance Editor
Blog: Words on the Word0 -
Abram K-J said:
I think Rene Atchley put it well: “…the endless marketing campaign that never lets you forget just how limited your 3k library is.”
Does anyone defending Logos here really not find that to be problematic?No.
The way they tag the books (particularly since L6) it is easier for me to find the information in my library without even knowing what I have.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Abram K-J said:
I completely agree with those who have said it’s the responsibility of the purchaser to wade through whatever marketing. No one has to do anything, we are all adults who can make our own decisions, etc.
[Y]
Abram K-J said:I think Rene Atchley put it well: “…the endless marketing campaign that never lets you forget just how limited your 3k library is.”
Does anyone defending Logos here really not find that to be problematic?I'm not 100% sure but I don't believe Rene is an employee of Faithlife, also that Rene's comments represent Faithlife's position.
Maybe just turning off the marketing e-mails would be the best approach.
[:)]
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From European viewpoint some American churches are sort of aggressively marketing and also raising considerable money. Maybe FL is just part of their culture?
Another issue is that often a critical person reveals more about himself/herself than of the target of criticism
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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Abram K-J said:
Does anyone defending Logos here really not find that to be problematic?
I'm not defending Logos so much as suggesting that people who can't handle assertive advertising are the ones with the problem. Attacking the advertiser puts the shoe on the wrong foot. (IMHO, of course)
Abram K-J said:Business or not, “Christian organization” or not (if there is such a thing), Logos delivers Bible study products, so if, for example, one takes a biblical worldview to speak against the promotion of accumulating debt or a hoarder’s mentality, then my original points stand
I got the same email you did and respond to it quite differently. The 6 reasons are valid reasons for people who do have the financial capability to purchase more and would benefit from doing so. I hear these arguments against upgrading from pastors who do have generous book budgets (I'm not one of them). Logos' responses to those arguments seems like reasonable ones to me.
The point about payment plans can get people over their heads in debt, but they can also help someone who has a monthly book budget and needs to spread out the cost. Not everyone knows this is an option. I have used this option once or twice. It helped me purchase a resource (a commentary series) on sale, that I knew I would find helpful, but didn't have the money for at the time of the sale.
Abram K-J said:And remember—my complaint is not about being for-profit, about spending money on marketing, but about Faithlife’s approach that specifically seeks to tear down common-sense and even the values-based reasons people have for not buying
I don't see Faithlife tearing down anything, except a few bad arguments that don't necessarily apply (given one's particular situation). They don't discuss good reasons for not upgrading, but would you expect them to do that? I have my reasons for not upgrading beyond what I already did. These arguments do not persuade me, because they don't apply to my reasons for not purchasing more.
If a common sense and/or value-based approach can't stand up to advertising (of all things), it needs to be rebuilt on a firmer foundation. It's my job to manage my budget. It's Logos' job to increase sales. It's not my job help to do Logos' job (i.e., buy more, just because they tell me to). Nor is it Logos' job to do mine (live within my budget).
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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I think that this thread is pointing out the tension that exists in our world between businesses marketing their product and people making purchases beyond their means. I don't think any of us would argue that we don't live is a world that is dominated by materialism and accumulation of goods that we don't need nor can afford.
On the other hand marketing is the tool that businesses use to connect to their customers to motivate them to make consider changing their priorities and choose to purchase their products. As people that live in this world we must weigh these choices in light of what God wants for us. Should we purchase a new large screen TV or give those funds to a missions project? Should we buy a new car or a used car or no car at all? Should we expand our Logos library or be content with what we have?
As far as Faithlife is concerned (or any business for that matter) their "business" responsibility is to offer the opportunity to choose. How they do that is the topic of this thread. Generally I'm comfortable with how they do this. I choose to receive most email offers by Faithlife and keep my eye out for items that may be helpful, ignoring most of them. That is my choice to receive these messages and my responsibility to decide what I will do with them.
All this being said I think this thread is a good reminder for us all to carefully prayerfully use all of our financial resources the way we believe God is directing us.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Never really had another poster say that I was a pro Faithlife customer much less that I worked for them. In the real world I work for a local psychiatrist. I was merely pointing out that the most successful, and least buggy, part of Faithlife is their excellent marketing department that seems able to assure each of us that whatever we have bought isn't quite enough.
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Well said Hermann. [Y]Hermann Fritz said:Many times I have read through controversies in the forum.
What I have seen here , has often left a sad impression. It reminds me of a Christian sports car driver I criticized
a few years ago because he was driving too fast in a residential area with kids.
I was friendly but clear in the matter, but he was aggressive
and did not accept the criticism. Dear friends, we are all responsible to God, who is love.
I am convinced, HE wants to be the standard in every forum where Christians meet with their
discussants. I try to practice it in my daily life. If we follow 1. Corithians 13, we all will have good guidelines for a controversial discussion.
So let us turn back. It would make me no pleasure to stay away from such debates entirely
because I would have to fear the sarcasm of brothers and sisters ...
Yes, we are adults. But are we also mature in Christ? After reading some of these posts,
I doubt it.
May our good God help and bless us.
Hermann0 -
Bruce Dunning said:
As far as Faithlife is concerned (or any business for that matter) their "business" responsibility is to offer the opportunity to choose. How they do that is the topic of this thread. Generally I'm comfortable with how they do this. I choose to receive most email offers by Faithlife and keep my eye out for items that may be helpful, ignoring most of them. That is my choice to receive these messages and my responsibility to decide what I will do with them.
All this being said I think this thread is a good reminder for us all to carefully prayerfully use all of our financial resources the way we believe God is directing us.
Indeed.
It's ironic that this often heated discussion was initiated on the day where over a hundred million viewers participated in the pinnacle of American marketing (the Super Bowl), many of whom tune in merely to watch the commercials. I suspect some would condemn me for being in that latter number, or at least condemning me for not condemning those companies.
What is interesting and confusing to me in this discussion -- and in many like this that, along with Hermann as he stated earlier, sadden me -- is how vital it is to some that everyone else adopt their viewpoint. Why is it not good enough to express a viewpoint and admit that someone else, in their unique circumstance, might have a different viewpoint? It's easier to see our brothers and sisters as brothers and sisters (indeed, as blessings in our lives) in this way rather than as adversaries.
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Matthew 18:15a (REB) said:
If your brother does wrong, go and take the matter up with him, strictly between yourselves.
Does anyone admonishing Logos here really not find that to be problematic?
"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963
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Hermann Fritz said:
Many times I have read through controversies in the forum.
What I have seen here , has often left a sad impression.
It reminds me of a Christian sports car driver I criticized
a few years ago because he was driving too fast in a residential area with kids.
I was friendly but clear in the matter, but he was aggressive
and did not accept the criticism. Dear friends, we are all responsible to God, who is love.
I am convinced, HE wants to be the standard in every forum where Christians meet with their
discussants. I try to practice it in my daily life.
If we follow 1. Corithians 13, we all will have good guidelines for a controversial discussion.
So let us turn back. It would make me no pleasure to stay away from such debates entirely
because I would have to fear the sarcasm of brothers and sisters ...
Yes, we are adults. But are we also mature in Christ? After reading some of these posts,
I doubt it.
May our good God help and bless us.
HermannAmen my friend!
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But Jesus continues...
Matthew 18:16-27
16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ d17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Should I treat Logos as a brother or a tax collector?
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Abram K-J said:
I want to lodge a complaint (and suggestion) with Logos/Faithlife as a company:
The post 6 Reasons That Shouldn’t Stop You from Getting Logos 6 (however unintentionally) undermines important values of sufficiency and wise financial stewardship and promotes instead harmful values of materialism and overspending--especially in its reasons #2 and #4.
I really think Logos needs to reconsider these sorts of approaches in marketing--i.e., stop advertising how it enables overspending and quit encouraging the continuous accumulation of more and more and more and more books. I see this kind of angle from Logos over and over--this particular post came to me in an email yesterday, but it's just one of many.
Whatever happened to sufficiency mentality and only spending what you have?
Of course users are free to act on those instincts--but Logos should not be encouraging its users to do otherwise.
I hope Logos weighs its messaging more carefully in the future. Or if they already are weighing it carefully, I hope they just flat out stop this kind of messaging.
So as to not make this forum post any longer, I elaborate here.
Thanks, all, for the discussion. It's good feedback. We need you to hold us accountable, and we appreciate that you do.
Marketing and selling Bible software is a challenging thing. There's a wide spectrum of views on what's acceptable and what isn't, and we try very hard to be careful. We love the products we sell, and we truly believe that nearly everyone would benefit from owning and using them. Sometimes that passion and excitement leads us to push too hard.
But I'm not sure we did, or at least intended to, in this case.
The point we were trying to make in #2 is a really important one: you will benefit from Logos books that you didn't intend to use or even know that you had. Many people think about their Logos library like they think about their print library: you benefit from a book in your print library when you remember you own it, locate it on your shelf, thumb through it to find a relevant discussion, and then read it and receive helpful information—or when you simply read it cover to cover.
You can benefit from your Logos books in the same way, but there's a second benefit to your Logos books that many people look over. If you have the right books that are richly tagged, interconnected, and deeply integrated into the tools of the software, the software will go and fetch you relevant discussions to your study without your even knowing you have the book.
We make this point in response to people who say that have enough books, but are thinking only of the first benefit of their Logos library. Our intent is not to get people to buy more books than they should or be poor stewards of their limited resources. We just want to make sure everyone fully understands both benefits of books in our format when evaluating whether they should buy more or not.
Keep in mind that the bulk of #2 is focused on selling people crossgrades, which are built for the people who are convinced they don't need more books. They just want the features of the software. I don't think we were pushing too hard. A quick point was made about the value of Logos books, and then the focus shifted to options that aren't about growing your library with new books.
In #4, the goal is simply to make people aware of their options. Some people might not realize that we offer a payment plan. We understand that some people are opposed to payment plans, and our intent isn't to try to get those people to sin against their consciences. Many people find the payment plan useful. Pastors with book budgets are the primary audience for payment plans. Our job in marketing is to help people know about and understand their options, and that's all this brief statement intended to do.
I'm sorry you felt it was overbearing and pushy. That wasn't our intent. I'll talk to the team about how we can be more careful in the future.
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Well, Phil. Being a marketer, you have to admit the theological thunderbolts from Mount Olympus has certainly done wonders for the blog article.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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JAL said:
Matthew 18:15a (REB)">If your brother does wrong, go and take the matter up with him, strictly between yourselves.
Does anyone admonishing Logos here really not find that to be problematic?
My question is have you treated the individuals who work in marketing and management at Faithlife as brothers?Paul Lee said:But Jesus continues...
16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ d17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Should I treat Logos as a brother or a tax collector?
Have you made any attempt to address your concerns to these brothers in private before this public lambast?
"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963
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Wow... And I thought my thread on needing a user manual went south...[:#]
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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