Help! Greek Tools

Hello, this is my first time to the Logos Forums

I have been using the [Greek Alphabet Tutor] & [Pronunciation Tool] (both set to Koine) for a few weeks, a good 3-4 hours per day. In addition I have 3 Grammars open for nuances, reference, and study. I Created 2 [Word List] for the diphthongs and vowels. The [Word List] I made up using the 3 Grammars.

I realized yesterday a large variance between the resources as I will explain in detail. The Greek tools are one of the main reasons I upgraded to 6, if it were minor differences I would contribute them to instructor preference or differences in dialect, but that is not the case. After checking it out your system does not have the same conflicts than this is an isolated case, I may have to reinstall. Please understand that Greek is my primary study currently and I have invested a great deal of time and money towards that end.

The [Greek Alphabet Tutor] & [Pronunciation Tool] (both set to Koine) pronounce the Diphthongs as follows compared side by side to 3 top Grammars:

Logos (set to Koine) / BBG, BGGNT, BCCG, Greek Grammars

ai = hay & get ai = aisle

ei = meet ei = eight

oi = spoon oi = oil

au = af or av au = sauerkraut

ou = boot ou = soup

ui = YoYo ui = suite

eu = get + v eu = feud

nu = Not Found

You will find similar difference in the alphabet

such as bata B or V

such as delta d or th

There are more conflicts but these are enough to explain my situation. If any one knows the reason for this, or if its a bug, or if it is my installation please let me know.

Thank You

Don

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Comments

NB.Mick

Hello Donald,

welcome!

I think the only issue is that you set Logos to "Koine" whereas the Grammars etc. you use teach the "Erasmian" pronunciation.

Hope this helps,

Mick

MJ. Smith

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek_phonology gives you a basic background of the differences. And welcome to the forums. Also bear in mind the phonology of the country of publication re: European, British, American value of vowels.

Ergatees

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/696231#Comment_696231

Hello Donald,

welcome!

I think the only issue is that you set Logos to "Koine" whereas the Grammars etc. you use teach the "Erasmian" pronunciation.

Hope this helps,

Mick

Donald,

as said in this post by Mick, you are dealing with modern Greek pronunciation on the left and Erasmian or school Greek usually taught in universities in the West...not in Greece.

that is the reason for the confusion. Your school books are using the usual Eramian pronunciation.

Ergatees

Donald J Mills

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/696231#Comment_696231

Hello again and thank you for the quick and accurate replies. And a warm welcome. That was the case and it is now resolved, though I do not thoroughly understand the logic behind referring to it as Koine. But that will come latter; for now I am learning the basics with alot of memorization and time. You all saved me a lot of time.

Thank You all again

Don

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/696238#Comment_696238

Hello again and thank you for the quick and accurate replies. And a warm welcome. That was the case and it is now resolved, though I do not thoroughly understand the logic behind referring to it as Koine. But that will come latter; for now I am learning the basics with alot of memorization and time. You all saved me a lot of time.

Thank You all again

Don

You would be well advised to worry less about memorization and spend more time simply reading texts.

Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/696238#Comment_696238

Logos adopts Randall Buth's system of pronunciation. This document sets out some of the justifications: http://www.biblicallanguagecenter.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Koine-Pronunciation-2012.pdf Most grammar books on the market more or less adopt the Erasmian system of pronunciation.

Donald J Mills

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/696247#Comment_696247

Thank You, very much It will no doubt take a great deal of time to appreciate the depth of what I have chosen to dive into. I found the following in the Mounce Grammar preface; I must admit that I glanced through the preface the first time at cost.:

"I follow standard pronunciation of Koine Greek (also called “Erasmian”). There is increasing interest in modern Greek pronunciation, and some are making the argument that this is closer to the true pronunciation of Koine. I have included some modern Greek pronunciation on the website. But the majority of students learn the standard pronunciation, and those who learn modern often have difficulty communicating with students from other schools."

Mounce, W. D. (2009). Basics of Biblical Greek: Grammar. (V. D. Verbrugge, Ed.) (Third Edition., p. xi). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

Thank you for the link, and Thank you all for the direction and help.

Don

Veli Voipio

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/696242#Comment_696242

... worry less about memorization and spend more time simply reading texts.

Those who like detective stories can just start reading the Greek NT. I started that way 50 years ago. It is fun to try to guess the meanings of the words when you have a general idea how the story proceeds. Nowadays I understand the text but I am not good in morphological terminology.

It is interesting to watch the children learn languages. They seem to imitate and repeat what they have heard, and they enjoy seeing the effects of their words. Audio learning seems to be important for children. Thus nowadays I listen to the Greek NT audio quite a lot, I think it emulates the recitation situation 2000 years ago!

I attended a computer course in US when my older son was 3 years old and in the nursery he started to speak English in two weeks. I am wondering whether the same could work for the adults, if it would be possible to be surrounded by speakers of Koine Greek for some period?

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/696282#Comment_696282

I attended a computer course in US when my older son was 3 years old and in the nursery he started to speak English in two weeks. I am wondering whether the same could work for the adults, if it would be possible to be surrounded by speakers of Koine Greek for some period?

Randall Buth conducts an Ulpan in Greek and in Hebrew with some regularity, but you would need to go to Israel.

http://www.biblicallanguagecenter.com/

After I say that, just watch them make a liar of me. It appears that there are now options other than going to Israel.

Greg F

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/696309#Comment_696309

I took a summer course in Rome in spoken Greek two years ago: 100% greek-only discussion and instruction. Absolutely wonderful, especially if you already have some Greek under your belt.

http://www.polisjerusalem.org/#!rome-summer-courses/ccpm

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/696311#Comment_696311

I took a summer course in Rome in spoken Greek two years ago: 100% greek-only discussion and instruction. Absolutely wonderful, especially if you already have some Greek under your belt.

http://www.polisjerusalem.org/#!rome-summer-courses/ccpm

Yeah, well, I have too much under my belt. [:D] (Weight Watchers anyone?)

Lonnie Spencer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/696312#Comment_696312

Yeah, well, I have too much under my belt. Big Smile (Weight Watchers anyone?)

My wife put me on a Logos crash diet- no more books for a while.[:(]

Ergatees

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/696311#Comment_696311

I took a summer course in Rome in spoken Greek two years ago: 100% greek-only discussion and instruction. Absolutely wonderful, especially if you already have some Greek under your belt.

http://www.polisjerusalem.org/#!rome-summer-courses/ccpm

Yes, this is the most interesting way to learn any language, using it as a child does when he is growing up. It is practical and fun. I checked out this link. Thanks.

Ergatees

Donald J Mills

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/696282#Comment_696282

I see a lot of comments referring to what is actually called dynamic emersion. It is the learning process used by Rossetta Stone; it uses words, phrases in Modern Greek (or many other languages), and pictures, no English at all. I had my son use it when he was being home schooled. I have used it a little to check it out and I can still remember most of the words I learned; it somehow burns them into your brain. I was intending to use it myself alongside logos until I realized the vast differences between modern and ancient Greek. However the differences between them are all new to me. All of your comments, your references, and the Logos grammars and tools are showing me so much. Thank you for this experience and the information. I have never used social media before unless you count blackboard in college, perhaps to my lost. I have found it to be a pleasant and informative experience.

Thank you all again-again
Don

Donald J Mills

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/696242#Comment_696242

Hello George

Thank You for your input George, but when I said “for now I am learning the basics with a lot of memorization and time”, I meant just that, I am just now learning my alphabet, vowels, and diphthongs. I have prepared by getting the “XL Greek Language Bundle” and after about a month of preparation have leaned toward “Mounce” as my primary grammar who stresses the memorization of the basics prior to proceeding. Logos has some great tools for this, it was setting these tools to Koine and a few weeks of memorization, which lead to my error of taking it for granted that Koine was in fact Koine. I apologize for not making my current level of study clear, You are correct in that I have not done a great deal of reading; however if I would have began as you suggest, and paid more attention to the grammar, perhaps I would have avoided this issue.

Thank you
Don