How many programmers
Does anyone know how many programmers (I think this is what we call those who fix Logos) are there involved in making, fixing Logos?
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Only Faithlife would be able to accurately answer that question. Just curious, why do you want to know?
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I'm asking that because of the slow fix for Timeline / Factbook. I've seen this type of thing with Biblesoft (promises to make fixes) and we all know what eventually happened to Biblesoft.
This is an honest question by the way! How does on contact Faithlife?
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Bootjack said:
How does on contact Faithlife?
I'm sure someone like Bradley will be able to give a rough answer when he notices your question. Until he does, I think the figure is about 100 or so. There are certainly more than 400 staff in total at Faithlife. There's no comparison with companies like Biblesoft.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Bootjack said:
How does on contact Faithlife?
TIP: Most every company's website will have a "contact" link on their site's homepage.
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
Only 400 hey? Kowabunga! Anyway, thanks for the replies guys!
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I think Bootjack is simply being concerned . We both owned Biblesoft back in the day ( seems so long ago now) and, had a very bad experience that began with things not getting fixed that were supposed to.
Things went down hill from there- end result- wasted investment.
Thus, while i agree there is no real comparison between the companies , one does get that concern if similar things happen.
If it was cars, planes or boats- when one gets burned, one gets wary.
Fwiw Bootjack- I do think this company tries harder thought I don't think enough effort is made in perfecting one thing before moving to the net.
Just an opinion.
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Mark Barnes said:
I think the figure is about 100 or so.
That figure sounds in the right ballpark, but of course they are spread across all of Faithlife's products: Proclaim, the mobile apps, the websites, Faithlife the social networking platform, Biblia, etc. So it's likely there are only about 20-30 tasked specifically with Logos desktop for Windows/Mac. Many if not most of those are probably occupied working on new versions/features, so perhaps only a handful are available for bug fixing of existing versions. And I'm sure there's a pretty long list of bugs in their tracking database that haven't been fixed yet, so the priority of fixing one particular one you've reported might be lower down and I can understand why they might not get to it right away.
Sometimes they hold off on fixing bugs if they know they have scheduled a revamp of a particular feature area for a future release: it would be a waste of time to fix a bug in code that might be going away or being drastically rewritten anyway. Timeline and Factbook are both feature areas that have received quite a bit of flak for not being fully fleshed out when they first were released, so I'm guessing they are planning to address those in a bigger way than just hacking away at bugs here and there. So perhaps we'll see Faithlife address one or both of those feature areas in 6.4 or 6.5. Let's hope.
Anyway, they are not in any danger of going the way of BibleSoft in the near future. They are continuing to make major improvements in Logos, as you can tell from a perusal of the beta release notes.
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I think you've got closer to the truth than not, Charles. Back in December, I was told that Factbook / Community Tags was being fixed. That's how many months ago?
As you say, it gives me the willey's when I see something like that just not being touched. I know there's probably other things to be looked at (fixed) but something like this should have been done a long while back.
Nice seeing you on this forum Charles - :-)
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Appreciate your feedback Rosie. You've earned your Tim Horton's today! With that said, I presently have the Core crossgrade - do you think it to my benefit I buy the Feature crossgrade?
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Bootjack said:
Appreciate your feedback Rosie. You've earned your Tim Horton's today!
Gee, really?! [:)]
I usually don't go for Tim Horton's anyway, as I'm trying to watch my waistline, and I don't digest gluten as well as I used to so it can cause discomfort for hours. A donut just isn't worth that usually. Now a cinnamon bun, maybe...
EDIT: Just saw your edit.
Bootjack said:With that said, I presently have the Core crossgrade - do you think it to my benefit I buy the Feature crossgrade?
I don't know. I'm never a good one to ask about those questions. I pretty much always buy more of Logos and its resources than I really need (since I can afford to be profligate) and I don't get my money's worth since I'm not using it intensively very often. I used to justify that because as an MVP I wanted to be able to help everyone with their questions and I had to own at least what all the people asking questions owned. But now I'm not even doing the MVP thing formally anymore, as I have less time. So my old habits of buying up nearly everything that comes through pre-pub don't serve me well. I've tapered off a bit on it, but am still spending 5-digit figures per year.
Anyway, all that to say I don't know what's best for you.
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Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
I think Bootjack is simply being concerned .
I understand that. I was a Biblesoft user too.
I'd be concerned if there was no active development at all (how long has PC Study Bible been at version 5!?). But to be fair to Logos, they keep cranking out new versions and new features. There's a host of pet bugs/missing features I'd love them to fix, of course, but my list is probably quite different from yours — and actually, creating new features probably helps guarantee the future much more than nailing all the bugs.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Bootjack said:
With that said, I presently have the Core crossgrade - do you think it to my benefit I buy the Feature crossgrade?
It rather depends on what you had with L5. I think the Biblical Referents, Word Senses and Reported Speech Datasets are really handy, but you may have them from L5 days. Likewise all the reverse interlinears, which power so much.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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I suppose you could make something up Rosie - I'll believe anything!!!??! Seriously, thanks again for your feedback! :-)
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The only thing I could reply to that Mark is that I had Logos 5 Silver and now Logos 6 Silver. For me to search through everything involved with this ... well, I'd look a lot worse than I do now because of the aging process! :-)
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Bootjack said:
The only thing I could reply to that Mark is that I had Logos 5 Silver and now Logos 6 Silver
So I think you are saying you have both Logos 6 Silver and the Core Crossgrade. Is that correct?
I'm querying it because I don't think Core Crossgrade gives you anything that you don't get in Silver so wondering how you got to that point?
EDIT: and from https://community.logos.com/forums/p/104891/725376.aspx#725376 it's not clear you actually have L6 Silver.
To see what Feature Crossgrade would add - and how much it would cost you - look at https://www.logos.com/product/45041/logos-6-feature-crossgrade and scroll down and select "New to You" and see what it would provide which you don't already have. Hopefully this will help you decide whether it is worth it to you.
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Bootjack said:
I suppose you could make something up Rosie - I'll believe anything!!!??! Seriously, thanks again for your feedback! :-)
Ha ha! You'd better beware. I seriously might make up something completely off-the-wall now that I know you're so gullible. [:)]
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Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Sorry this has nothing to do with programmers, however, when doing a bit of research on whether or not to upgrade to L6, I pretty much decided that Starter would be fine. Anything higher seems to have a massive amount of extraneous resources which I have no use for. Of course, the salesperson at Logos wants me to go Bronze stating that I would not receive Factbook, Universal Timeline, etc. But reading a few of these responses it appears that Factbook and Timeline have problems. So why would I? Just wondering and looking for a few thoughts and advice.
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Dave M said:
Of course, the salesperson at Logos wants me to go Bronze stating that I would not receive Factbook, Universal Timeline, etc
Worth noting that there are two ways to get these additional features - a higher base package or a crossgrade package.
FYI - Factbook is included in the core engine (but limited by resources) and Timeline is included in the Core Crossgrade which may be cheaper than Bronze
Dave M said:But reading a few of these responses it appears that Factbook and Timeline have problems. So why would I? Just wondering and looking for a few thoughts and advice.
I find Factbook extremely useful and Timeline when I use it. Problems are reported against different parts of the software but I'm not aware of issues in either of these which would prevent someone using them.
The key question is whether the functionalities provided are of value to you.
I suggest if you want to explore that further you start another thread outlining what features you might like and we can advise further.
EDIT: Sorry - I see you have done that - https://community.logos.com/forums/t/104926.aspx - let's continue the conversation there
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Bootjack said:
Does anyone know how many programmers are there involved in making, fixing Logos?
Possibly three. One to change it, and two to complain about how bad M$ customer support is[:D]Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave, after reading your reply, I nearly had to go outside and do 30 laps around the house!!! :-)
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Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
I do think this company tries harder thought I don't think enough effort is made in perfecting one thing before moving to the net.
Just an opinion.I think you are right. If the DSM-V addressed corporate abnormalities, Faithlife would be the textbook case of a company with ADHD. Been here since L3. Every version is advanced well before any of a hundred or more fixes are completed.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Dave Hooton said:Bootjack said:
Does anyone know how many programmers are there involved in making, fixing Logos?
Possibly three. One to change it, and two to complain about how bad M$ customer support is
LOL! I immediately thought of lightbulb jokes when I first saw the subject line of this thread. Glad to see I wasn't the only one with my mind on humor.
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Rosie Perera said:Dave Hooton said:Bootjack said:
Does anyone know how many programmers are there involved in making, fixing Logos?
Possibly three. One to change it, and two to complain about how bad M$ customer support isLOL! I immediately thought of lightbulb jokes when I first saw the subject line of this thread. Glad to see I wasn't the only one with my mind on humor.
LOL
How many programmers does it take to change a light bulb?
NONE!! That's a hardware problem!
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Fredc said:
How many programmers does it take to change a light bulb?
NONE!! That's a hardware problem!
[:D] Personally speaking, this is totally true.
It turns out it's a hard question to answer. Anywhere from 10 to... 60 (as a semi-random guess, it could be a lot more) depending on how you count it. Do you count the people on the website teams that write the "web pages" that are embedded in the software? Do you count the people who write the server software that provides all the online services that the software depends on? Do you count the people who maintain the server hardware? Do you count the people who write and fix code for different projects that is shared by the desktop software. Some people work exclusively on lower level libraries that are shared across a broad variety of uses (including desktop software), such as our resource display engine. Do you count people that fix problems in resources that are exposed in the desktop software (no coding changes required). Do you count people that create and fix the various databases that drive so many of the features in the software. Do you count testers that are instrumental in finding and verifying problems? Do you count support who are involved in finding and communicating solutions to problems with interactions between the software and user-specific machine configurations? Do you count people who create training materials that help users understand how to better use the software? Do you count the people who maintain the information on the websites that help you discover what you might want to purchase in order to improve your library?
Making and fixing Logos Bible Software is truly a giant team effort that involves a very large portion of the company.
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
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This makes me more amazed that aged problems such as "not responding" haven't been fixed a loooooong time ago. Factbook / Community Tags is another ongoing problem that seems to stand out.
And what new version of Logos is going to overcome even this persisting issue - the "not responding" that is a carry over from Logos 5? :-)
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Bootjack said:
This makes me more amazed that aged problems such as "not responding" haven't been fixed a loooooong time ago. Factbook / Community Tags is another ongoing problem that seems to stand out.
And what' to day that a new version of Logos is going to overcome even these two issues - the "not responding" is a carry over from Logos 5 so yes, this should have been addressed a long ways back.
All of the problems that we know about have a tracking case created and are prioritized for fixing. Factors in prioritization can include facets such as severity of the problem, number of user affected, technical feasibility, expense in resolving the problem, and availability of people needed to resolve the problem. Prioritization can also change over time as various facets change.
If you can provide me some links to forum threads regarding the issues you are concerned about, I can bring these issues back to the attention of people who manage our priorities. That doesn't guarantee a fix, but does mean that the priority can be reconsidered (and potentially adjusted).
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
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Bootjack said:
aged problems such as "not responding" haven't been fixed a loooooong time ago.
Bootjack, can you be more specific? A "not responding" error is a generic symptom that happens whenever a Windows application hangs/crashes. There can be many reasons for a hang or crash. There have been dozens of different crashing bugs reported on the forums and fixed in Logos over the years. Which one are you referring to that you know to be an aged one that has not been fixed in a loooooong time? The fact that more of them crop up from time to time does not mean there is an outstanding problem that hasn't been fixed. These are usually new bugs that get introduced when new code is written for new features. But it still has that familiar old "not responding" symptom, so it may seem like it's the same old bug. However, if there's a thread about one such crash that has been around for a long time without being addressed, please point it out.
Bootjack said:Factbook / Community Tags is another ongoing problem that seems to stand out.
Again, could you be specific about what is wrong with these two feature areas? Post a link to a thread that already discusses it if there is one you know of.
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Thanks for the response Andrew. I've reported the Factbook / Community Tags issue by email (can't remember the address at the moment) several months back. I got a response back saying they would try to push this one to the front, with no guarantees of course. I cannot search through threads at the moment where I've complained about this before. :-)
Rosie, the "not responding" will rear its ugly head when I open up a Layout. This is where I remember seeing this most.
As to the Factbook / Community Tags, type in *Spirit* then go down to community tags and try opening up The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia / also the Lexham Bible Dictionary. These will not work.
The fellow I reported this to a few months ago told me he got the same problem when trying to open these two sources.
Hopefully this will help you to see where I'm coming from. I can totally agree there are many snags which Logos is probably dealing with, but I'm still amazed at how long some of these haven't been overcome yet, especially the "not responding" which again, is a carry over from at least Logos 5.
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As Bootjack says, the Factbook Community Tags expansion issue is discussed in a number of threads. See https://community.logos.com/forums/t/93283.aspx for an example
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Thanks Graham for pointing out the links. Rosie, I didn't intentionally overlook your explanation regarding the "not responding" issue --- after reading your posting again, you're making good sense, although it baffles me as to why with me, it's been the layouts since Logos 5.
As to earlier than Logos 5, I wasn't around in those days! :-)
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Bootjack said:
Rosie, the "not responding" will rear its ugly head when I open up a Layout. This is where I remember seeing this most.
Does this happen every time? Or just occasionally? And is this a temporary "not responding" (where it's just really slow, but then comes back to life), or is it a "not responding" to the point of needing to terminate the Logos process? I.e., Logos has completely hung. If it's the former, that issue has been discussed in a few threads recently, and it happens in various parts of the program, and I agree it's been taking too long to address, though they did claim to have made an improvement in it. Don't have time to search for the threads right now.
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Thank you for your response Rosie. This is not a problem that has me to terminate the program. I would say about 99% of the time with the opening of a Layout, I'll see the "not responding" which will last roughly 4-5 seconds then that Layout will open up. All else proceeds as though normal.
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Bootjack said:
Thank you for your response Rosie. This is not a problem that has me to terminate the program. I would say about 99% of the time with the opening of a Layout, I'll see the "not responding" which will last roughly 4-5 seconds then that Layout will open up. All else proceeds as though normal.
Could you follow the steps at https://www.logos.com/support/logos6/windows/report-performance to get some performance logs of this? But where it says to send them to support, please instead email them to logosbugs@logos.com. Just reference this thread, and I'll get it to the developers.
Also, a screencast of the hang could be useful, though the above logs are more important. You can use Jing for free to take a screencast.
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Graham Criddle said:
As Bootjack says, the Factbook Community Tags expansion issue is discussed in a number of threads. See https://community.logos.com/forums/t/93283.aspx for an example
The case for this issue is still active, and has activity as recently as yesterday. FYI [:)]
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Bootjack said:
Does anyone know how many programmers are there involved in making, fixing Logos?
As a retired software engineer (our application had four million lines of code), I can tell you that there is a limit to the number of bodies you can throw at software problems. After a certain point, extra help makes more mess. For example, even if you gave me nine women, I couldn't give you a baby in a month.
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Dylan, I'll get back to you later tomorrow on this one. I'll try and follow the instructions and send in the report.
I do notice in your next post, that you say "the case for this issue is still active" ... are you telling me Logos is working on this?
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Dylan, we'll call this tomorrow - I found a few minutes to send in the log files after downloading the Logos Performance Tool.
Just before sending it, I opened up a Layout, got the "not responding" message, then got the log file and sent it in.
I would imagine this problem will be fixed by the Techs at Logos by May 14th 2015. :-}
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Jack Hairston said:Bootjack said:
Does anyone know how many programmers are there involved in making, fixing Logos?
As a retired software engineer (our application had four million lines of code), I can tell you that there is a limit to the number of bodies you can throw at software problems. After a certain point, extra help makes more mess. For example, even if you gave me nine women, I couldn't give you a baby in a month.
Randy W. Sims said:The Mythical Man Month
[Y] [Y]
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Bootjack said:
Dylan, we'll call this tomorrow - I found a few minutes to send in the log files after downloading the Logos Performance Tool.
Just before sending it, I opened up a Layout, got the "not responding" message, then got the log file and sent it in.
I would imagine this problem will be fixed by the Techs at Logos by May 14th 2015. :-}
Bootjack, I received your email, but it looks like you zipped only the LogosError.log file, which unfortunately doesn't have the needed information. [:(]
After starting sampling with the Performance tool, reproducing the issue, and stopping sampling, you'll want to right click on the entire Logos Log Files folder, compress to zip, and email that.
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Did you receive my second attempt at this Dylan?
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Bootjack said:
Did you receive my second attempt at this Dylan?
I did! I was in meetings this afternoon, but I have them and the correct files are in there. [:)] I will pass them on to development for analysis, thanks for helping us track this down!
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Super!
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Bootjack said:
As to the Factbook / Community Tags, type in *Spirit* then go down to community tags and try opening up The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia / also the Lexham Bible Dictionary. These will not work.
We've deployed some fixes to the Community Tags service that should resolve this problem. I apologise for the delay in getting this fixed.
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Thank you Brad for moving this along. This fix is so much appreciated! :-)
Can one please explain this though. I've typed in "spirit" and notice for example, in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia that it shows 54 results. It lists three to what I understand. It shows the following
1. Definition and Terms
C. Other New Testament References
1V. Development of the Doctrine.
Why am I thinking there would be fifty four results listed there instead of three? Obviously I'm overlooking something, correct?
MSI Pulse GL76-12UGK Intel Core i7-12700H, RTX3070, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Windows 11 Home
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Bootjack said:
Why am I thinking there would be fifty four results listed there instead of three? Obviously I'm overlooking something, correct?
This is by design - see Bradley's comment at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/104272/720796.aspx#720796
You can get the complete set by clicking the "Search Community Tags" button at the bottom of the section.
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Thanks Graham for your usual good help. Always appreciated.
MSI Pulse GL76-12UGK Intel Core i7-12700H, RTX3070, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, Windows 11 Home
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