Suggestion: Important idea Logos Online - Offline

Kevin A Lewis

Suggestion

Can the options that don't by functionality require being constantly online have a user downloadable option added.

Context

I like Visual Copy - and the background - want more

I like the extra Maps - want more

But I cannot always guarantee internet coverage.

Solution Idea

I can buy - very large PC storage!

Configure my settings to down load such items to a configurable size - say 2 T bytes maximum (just for Maps and Visual Copy) - once I have downloaded that much - don't allow anymore.

All items downloaded - should be updateable as normal downloadable content.

Faithlife Action

Needs some more thought - but what about it Faithlife - decent idea?

Shalom

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Comments

MJ. Smith

This strikes me as a reasonable approach for supporting individuals where internet connectivity is a problem - physical, political, financial ...

GaoLu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/714559#Comment_714559

Great Idea.

Veli Voipio

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/714586#Comment_714586

I hope I understood this correctly: instead of internet connection to have an own local server, for those who like to buy it?

EastTN

I like the idea too. Could having the data on local storage also provide a bit faster response times? If so, it might be useful for folks who have solid connectivity but would prefer to trade storage space for greater responsiveness.

Kevin A Lewis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/714591#Comment_714591

I hope I understood this correctly: instead of internet connection to have an own local server, for those who like to buy it?

I hadn't thought of a local server - but that might work

Actually I personally was thinking of having a far large disc set for Logos on the main PC.

Shalom

Veli Voipio

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/714684#Comment_714684

Actually I personally was thinking of having a far large disc set for Logos on the main PC.

Ok, thanks, technically simpler.

Kevin A Lewis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/714704#Comment_714704

Bump

Kevin A Lewis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/715460#Comment_715460

Anymore?

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/716320#Comment_716320

I like the idea Kevin. Although Logos will tell you that their databases are never finished, I like the option of working offline. Hdd are getting cheaper all the time. A three Terabyte drive (server version) goes for $125.00

Kevin A Lewis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/716324#Comment_716324

anymore thoughts ?

Faithlife?

Kevin A Lewis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/718864#Comment_718864

In the light of the recent Atlas online issues - perhaps Dylan Rondeau should look into this idea and comment

Regards Kevin

Dylan Rondeau

Configure my settings to down load such items to a configurable size - say 2 T bytes maximum (just for Maps and Visual Copy) - once I have downloaded that much - don't allow anymore.

All items downloaded - should be updateable as normal downloadable content.

My first impression is that the amount of development backend to set this up is not commensurate to the user benefit, especially when you reduce the number of users to those willing to purchase significant amounts of extra storage dedicated to these features. We also don't have the infrastructure to download and update that sort of data individually, and the number of media items we have (over 23,000, at this point, not counting Atlas maps!) makes that untenable.

I can check with the developers, and I understand your desire for this sort of thing, but I hope you can appreciate that the amount of development support that would take is rather huge. This is the sort of thing cloud technology was made for.

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/725696#Comment_725696

I can check with the developers, and I understand your desire for this sort of thing, but I hope you can appreciate that the amount of development support that would take is rather huge. This is the sort of thing cloud technology was made for.

Thank you for checking with the developers. My hope would be that the code would be written to virtualize the storage location, making it fairly easy to point to either cloud or local storage. Of course, as you point out, the download and update process may still be a deal breaker.

Speaking of deal breakers, can you give us any sense for the volume of data involved? If it's something ridiculous like dozens of terabytes, we may all go "oh . . . never mind."

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/725870#Comment_725870

Our goal is to allow as much offline use as is practical. In the case of the Atlas, because we support zoom levels on hundreds (coming) of maps, it would take terabytes of hard drive space to store them offline. We DO store all the maps from Logos 5 offline, and many others in the resources. And we cache the new Atlas maps you've looked at up to some space limitation.

Books.Logos.com is another example -- the data for all those book page images is over 12 terabytes. I don't have that kind of hard drive space, and I doubt you do either.

So when we introduce Internet only features, it's usually not a choice to prefer online to offline -- it's because we're offering you something so big it couldn't be offline on most users' machines. If we decided to 'only do things offline' then we'd simply have to cut these features.

So we try to compromise -- to offer the best tools we can for offline use, supplemented by massive online databases.

(In some cases, like Community Tags, we access them online because they are by definition community-based, and huge, and need to be up-to-date to avoid duplicate tagging, etc.)

mike

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/725876#Comment_725876

I'm totally for Visual Copy and Media Resources offline.

I have large hard-drives and fast connection, and I think that they should be made available for those who are able to contain and achieve them.

Kevin A Lewis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/725880#Comment_725880

I'm totally for Visual Copy and Media Resources offline.

I have large hard-drives and fast connection, and I think that they should be made available for those who are able to contain and achieve them.

zactly!

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/725880#Comment_725880

I'm totally for Visual Copy and Media Resources offline.

The Media Resources, to support offline use you would need to one:

Modify the caching code to allow a much bigger local cache (which in theory shouldn't be difficult, but in practice the existing solution probably wouldn't scale and would need to be rewritten).
Add additional code to prime the cache by downloading all known resources added after a certain date/time.
Add server code to give a list of all known resources to the client.

With Visual copy, it's even more complex:

Create caching code that allows all slides to be cached (currently I don't think there's any local caching).
Create code to prime the cache.
Change the server code so that it only gives backgrounds added after a specified date/time.
Create code that will render a slide locally (e.g. add the text to the slide), because at the moment rendering is performed in the cloud.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be useful to have offline access, but in a world that's increasingly online with increasingly less local storage, I'm not sure it's worth investing significant resources in doing so. (Particularly because the most benefit would be to mobile users, but mobile users are very unlikely to have the space to store everything.)

Kevin A Lewis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/725933#Comment_725933

(Particularly because the most benefit would be to mobile users, but mobile users are very unlikely to have the space to store everything.)

Why do you say that - at first sight I think I disagree - why would I wan't to do a mere fraction of this as a "mobile user"?

Shalom Kevin

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/725946#Comment_725946

(Particularly because the most benefit would be to mobile users, but mobile users are very unlikely to have the space to store everything.)

Why do you say that - at first sight I think I disagree - why would I wan't to do a mere fraction of this as a "mobile user"?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your question. What I was trying to say was that

Offline access is must useful when you don't have a reliable fast internet connection.
Most users only lack a reliable fast internet connection when they're not at home or in the office.
Therefore mobile users would benefit most from an offline option.

But at the same time:

You'll need hundreds if not thousands of gigabytes storage for offline use.
Most laptops/tablets won't have hundreds/thousands of gigabytes of storage.
Therefore most mobile users won't be able to benefit from offline use.

So if Logos had an offline option:

Non-mobile users could do things offline but usually wouldn't need to (because although they have the disk space, they don't have connectivity problems)
Mobile users would need to things offline but couldn't do so (because despite having connectivity problems, they don't have the disk space)

Kevin A Lewis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/725992#Comment_725992

Okay - I understand more now

"Non-mobile users could do things offline but usually wouldn't need to (because although they have the disk space, they don't have connectivity problems)"

Not true - for those beyond the 1st world.

Not true for those who have experienced the vagaries of recent Faithlife downtimes.

Not true for those who want reliable delivery mechanisms in front of audiences.

Not true where local internet is unreliable/slow.

Not true where if we have bought a product based on offline functional access to have changed the rules - and now some of the functionality being offered appears to now be focused only on online.

Now don't get me wrong - I understand the technical (and maybe some of the business reasons) behind some of this. But I don't have to like it.

Also I have - I admit - being a little provocative (just to make my point a bit more forcefully)

Shalom

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/725876#Comment_725876

Our goal is to allow as much offline use as is practical. In the case of the Atlas, because we support zoom levels on hundreds (coming) of maps, it would take terabytes of hard drive space to store them offline. We DO store all the maps from Logos 5 offline, and many others in the resources. And we cache the new Atlas maps you've looked at up to some space limitation.

Books.Logos.com is another example -- the data for all those book page images is over 12 terabytes. I don't have that kind of hard drive space, and I doubt you do either.

So when we introduce Internet only features, it's usually not a choice to prefer online to offline -- it's because we're offering you something so big it couldn't be offline on most users' machines. If we decided to 'only do things offline' then we'd simply have to cut these features.

So we try to compromise -- to offer the best tools we can for offline use, supplemented by massive online databases.

(In some cases, like Community Tags, we access them online because they are by definition community-based, and huge, and need to be up-to-date to avoid duplicate tagging, etc.)

Thanks for going back and finding this, MJ. I hadn't been thinking of Books.Logos.com, but if I had been it clearly would be an "oh...never mind" for me. It sounds like the Atlas may be as well (I'm a bit surprised by that one).

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/725997#Comment_725997

"Non-mobile users could do things offline but usually wouldn't need to (because although they have the disk space, they don't have connectivity problems)"

Not true - for those beyond the 1st world.

Not true for those who have experienced the vagaries of recent Faithlife downtimes.

Not true for those who want reliable delivery mechanisms in front of audiences.

Not true where local internet is unreliable/slow.

Which is why I said "usually wouldn't need to" [:)]. I understand your point, and it would certainly be nice to have offline access. But I personally wouldn't choose that over the 20 other things I think Faithlife ought to be prioritising! But each to their own. We all have difference wants/needs, which is what makes Logos should a powerful product, and what must make working at Faithlife so.. er... interesting.

JAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/725992#Comment_725992

Non-mobile users could do things offline but usually wouldn't need to (because although they have the disk space, they don't have connectivity problems)

I'm in the opposite situation, with unlimited internet via mobile and very limited desktop connectivity. I expect that this will continue to be the case, with limited mobile internet the most likely potential change.

For the Faithlife desktop applications I use portable hardware, primarily a Dell M6600. When I've reached the cap on my desktop internet I can take this hardware to another location - doable but not convenient and not always possible when desired.

This thread is a part of the continuing response to the, not so new, client server architecture. I'm currently ambivalent toward the ideas presented in this thread. I have accepted that my experience with the desktop applications will limited.

What I'm most interested to see defined is the minimum feature set, which can reasonably be expected, for a standalone desktop installation of one of the Faithlife applications.