Server downtime highlights mobile app dependency flaws, just saying...

I hope that the recent server downtime opens more eyes to the current flawed, server-dependent model of Faithlife's mobile apps. Many people (myself included) found that not only were all the server-dependent features not working during the server down time, but also all their downloaded resources suddenly disappeared. This is just one more reason why I have been saying for a long time now that the iOS apps need to not be so heavily dependent upon the Logos servers. My apps became instantly useless once the servers were down. The cloud is not dependable, please make the iOS apps more able to stand by themselves!

With all due respect, we loyal Faithlife users spend a lot of money on these resources with the expectation that they will be there when we need them. Knowing that at any given moment the servers could go down and all my downloaded resources could disappear is very disturbing. Not the best way to build confidence in the Faithlife brand, or to have peace of mind regarding the availability of my library and the features of Logos. My simple suggestion once again is that, if Faithlife moves away from the server-dependent model of the mobile apps, they can save themselves a lot of embarrassment when their servers do go down.

I've become so tired of waiting for Faithlife to make this move that I finally purchased a Windows tablet (even though I am a mac guy) which runs Windows 10 and the full Logos 6 wonderfully just so I could have a mobile Logos experience that wasn't so tied to the cloud and to Faithlife's servers. Every time I suggest that Logos make their mobile apps more independent from the servers they always say, "oh the mobile platforms can't handle this because of hardware limitations!" but yet a Microsoft tablet can handle it just fine. As I've been saying, the mobile hardware technology is advancing leaps and bounds. To say that mobile devices don't have the hardware to be independent from the Faithlife servers is just an excuse. I have it now on a cheap Windows tablet and it works great, so please don't tell me it's not possible.

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Comments

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

This is a bug we're actively fixing.

Donnie Hale

Tim,

I am in complete agreement with your assessment.

For one thing, the consistent recommendation on this forum is that people download as *few* resources as possible. If we follow that advice, then there is no expectation that we can access them when Faithlife has an outage.

Second, if you lost access to all your downloaded resources, then an acknowledged bug that I pointed out many months ago has either still not been fixed or has resurfaced. Faithlife has affirmed that this should not happen.

Third, this is at least the fourth outage since last fall, of varying severities, which has impacted our ability to use our resources ***AND*** the features that Faithlife touts as advantages of purchashing Logos resources.

Finally, and I'm probably alone in this, I have more than once said that I'd be willing to pay for a mobile app that has sufficient development resources and feature enhancements.

Donnie

Tim Taylor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761005#Comment_761005

After waiting all day, my iPhone app still shows that I only own 44 resources, and all my downloaded resources are gone. [^o)]

George

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761051#Comment_761051

Same story with the Android app.

Mark Nolette

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761057#Comment_761057

Yes, on my iPad as of now, I can't access any of the resources I actually own. My library lists 987 resources, mainly in Spanish, none of which I actually own.

Yes, the iOS apps are way too dependent on the FL servers. I'm sure that my iPad Air 2 could handle doing a passage guide or an exegetical guide on its own. That's all I'd want.

Oh yeah, I turned off WiFi. The only two resources left on my Verbum iPad app are the Douay-Rheims Bible and the Catholic Lectionary. Not good.

Oddly enough, my Android tablet didn't lose any resources. Weird.

Into Grace

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761091#Comment_761091

Logos, please make the IOS app able to function WITHOUT Logos servers. I lost many books today. This has happened in the past and I'm growing tired.

In Christ!

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761096#Comment_761096

For those of you with missing resources, please sync the app (press the Home button on your iOS device and open the app again) - do the correct number of resources now appear in the Library?

Regis C

To Logos team:

I am having problem with my library too. Just 44 resources available. Please find a way that I can use the iPad app even if your servers are down, of course I would have only the downloadded resources available but that would be OK. Every time this happens I can't use the app and I have to re-download my resources again. Not a pleasant experience and not the first time that happens.

Thanks!

Into Grace

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761098#Comment_761098

Kevin B.,

Yes, the app is displaying correct # of resources. But many books will have to be downloaded again.

Dean J. Ferguson

I think that I am experiencing Pentecost! Not only is my downloaded books gone (except my trusty ESV), my history is not functioning, but I also have a new library in SPANISH? It has been 50 years since I studied Spanish. I guess I will need to get started. Oh, this is happening on my Galaxy tablet.

Mark Nolette

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761105#Comment_761105

Yes, my library is now displaying the correct resources (number and kind). The ones I had downloaded are downloading again. Oddly enough, no resources were removed from my Android tablet.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761005#Comment_761005

the consistent recommendation on this forum is that people download as *few* resources as possible. If we follow that advice, then there is no expectation that we can access them when Faithlife has an outage.

You are correct. I still, however, advise to be judicious in downloads.

George

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761141#Comment_761141

the consistent recommendation on this forum is that people download as *few* resources as possible. If we follow that advice, then there is no expectation that we can access them when Faithlife has an outage.

You are correct. I still, however, advise to be judicious in downloads.

Even better, make the product work as advertised!

Bill Stevener

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761143#Comment_761143

A sad situation, indeed. Resources not downloaded were not available because the servers were down (understandable), but even resources you might have downloaded to have available at all times, with or without the servers, were also not available because of a flaw in the Faithlife server system which effectively erased from user devices resources they had downloaded. Not a good time to be a Faithlife customer.

JimTowler

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761141#Comment_761141

You are correct. I still, however, advise to be judicious in downloads.

Alabama, Do you have any sound baisc for that advise?

In my view the app needs to work correctly with 5,000 or 10,000 titles if I want to download them all and devote that much of the memory for that purpose.

Many users have librarys well over 10,000 titles and expect the tools to just work. Why should we NOT expect the spftware to cope, subject to memory limits?

Regards,

Jim

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761170#Comment_761170

In my view the app needs to work correctly with 5,000 or 10,000 titles if I want to download them all and devote that much of the memory for that purpose.

Many users have librarys well over 10,000 titles and expect the tools to just work. Why should we NOT expect the spftware to cope, subject to memory limits?

[Y][y]

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761170#Comment_761170

Alabama, Do you have any sound baisc for that advise?

I am not interested in debating what "should" be. I am not interested in debating what "would be nice" to have. My advice is solely based upon years of beta testing, using the app, and helping users in the forums.

I get tired of answering the same question over and over, but because you asked so nicely... [:)]

FL employees suggest being judicious. (fwiw - I was suggesting this before they did so publicly).
Sometimes the best fix for the app is to perform a fresh install. This is no big deal when you have a few downloaded resources. It is a HUGE deal when you have to redownload thousands of books. Not only is there a considerable amount of bandwidth and time required, but sometimes glitches occur when the download process is interrupted. Guess what the best fix is for that? (Hint: Reinstall).
When a user reinstalls the app, resources typically start to download again. If the user isn't prepared to allow the massive download, a corruption might occur requiring a reinstall.
Problems can occur when resources aren't up to date. Resources "in the cloud" are automatically "up to date." Downloaded resources must be redownloaded... but sometimes the mobile app has difficulties keeping the downloaded resources up to date. This may cause troubles with highlights "shifting" or otherwise being out of sync... a reinstall might be required.
Sometimes iOS has difficulties releasing space. This is an iOS issue, not a Logos one. This is perhaps the most critical issue. Imagine that you have 5GB of downloaded resources and a fresh install is required. Now imagine that when you delete the app, you have to redownload the 5GB of data, but the previous 5GB is still unavailable and the ONLY fix is to wipe the device completely (All apps, complete fresh install of iOS). This has happened to me twice. I have no idea if this issue will appear again for users or not... I place the trouble with iOS and I think the issue is likely rare... but I am not sure.

If none of that persuades you, be my guest. I am not trying to be the "download nazi," just trying to provide helpful advice.

Matthew

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761098#Comment_761098

For those of you with missing resources, please sync the app (press the Home button on your iOS device and open the app again) - do the correct number of resources now appear in the Library?

Kevin, my resources are still missing (Android phone), but when I went to Downloads under Home, it showed I had 159 books that needed downloaded. The list seems to correspond to what had previously been there. I am working on downloading them now. Very happy that I do not need to manually identify what all books I had already downloaded, as the app (server?) seems to have kept track of it for me.

JimTowler

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761177#Comment_761177

Alabama,

Thanks for taking the time to answer, however:

Point 2A, 2B, 3, 4 and 5 are just software bugs that users should expect will be fixed.

I also encourage you to please not use "nazi" in that way.

I dont consider that software should require users to "delete the app", or "reinstall windows" or "factory reset your device". Thats just bad code, poor software or techs that cant get to the bottom of the real issue.

Lets not even call it a bug. Its a defect in the product or service. Ask Bob about his free book "Fire Someone Today".

Regards,

Jim

John Fugh, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761177#Comment_761177

It sounds like you are giving advice when you recommend that we should "be judicious with our downloads" and then shy away when pressed. The point of my concern is that even the five books that I had downloaded were not available when the servers went offline. Look, I understand network issues and problems can occur even when one mitigates a very secure fault tolerance, but if we're reminded FL and others that the app not cloud dependent for resources downloaded (albeit dependent for such features as syncing, read aloud, and resources that are not downloaded), then I should still be able to merely read my texts. For me, this has become a bigger issue.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761182#Comment_761182

The point of my concern is that even the five books that I had downloaded were not available when the servers went offline.

...but what does that have to do with being judicious about downloads? [*-)]

It is VERY unsettling to me that users would lose access to downloaded resources ever! That has nothing to do with my points above and is completely unrelated.

The servers being down is related... and it is also unsettling that this is happening again (didn't they just "fix" this issue?)

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761181#Comment_761181

Point 2A, 2B, 3, 4 and 5 are just software bugs that users should expect will be fixed.

I dont consider that software should require users to "delete the app", or "reinstall windows" or "factory reset your device". Thats just bad code, poor software or techs that cant get to the bottom of the real issue.

Again, I am not arguing about "what should be," or "what would be nice." I am giving advice about the current status of things. I don't care to argue that point one way or the other. You can choose to take my advice or leave it... but my points still remain. It is to the advantage of most users to be judicious in their downloads.

I also encourage you to please not use "nazi" in that way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Soup_Nazi

JimTowler

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761192#Comment_761192

Alabama,

I'm sorry I broke my own rule to no longer interact with you.

Thanks but bye.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761195#Comment_761195

I'm sorry I broke my own rule to no longer interact with you.

Why are you so bothered? What have I done to you? I spend a considerable amount of time in the forums trying to help people, and I have only tried to help people in this thread.

As I have said several times, it isn't my intentions to debate one way or the other about what should be. I was asked why I recommend users be judicious in their use of downloads, and I gave my opinion.

I am confused about why you would be offended by my saying that I am not trying to be a "download nazi." Are you unfamiliar with Seinfeld?

John Fugh, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761191#Comment_761191

...but what does that have to do with being judicious about downloads?

Precisely the same point I am offering to you: What does your advice about "judicious downloading" have to do with the present problem of us not being able to read our downloaded texts? ...especially when others from limited access and high bandwidth usage fees have been told that they could do just this...read their downloaded texts.

Look, it is almost certain that Logos is slowly moving to a cloud only platform even if it has been touted that this is not in plans for the immediate future. It seems with this outage and recent ones (of which we were assured that they were fixed), that the weakest link in the chain is a malfunctioning switch. This makes me feel uneasy. I certainly love the ability to sync my notes. I love that that I am able to highlight from multiple devices and have them sync. But, I understand and believed that these were the only things (along with others mentioned in previous post) that were Cloud dependent. I believed what FL said: You can at least read your downloaded texts. By no means am I suggesting that they mislead me. What I do believe is that they were ignorant and didn't know if exactly what they promised could be promised.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761197#Comment_761197

Precisely the same point I am offering to you: What does your advice about "judicious downloading" have to do with the present problem of us not being able to read our downloaded texts?

It doesn't... but I was responding to Donnie. I agreed with him that the "present problem" is troublesome.

Look, it is almost certain that Logos is slowly moving to a cloud only platform even if it has been touted that this is not in plans for the immediate future.

I have no reason to believe this, but I agree it would be disconcerting if true.

What I do believe is that they were ignorant and didn't know if exactly what they promised could be promised.

I agree. This problem is very troubling.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761098#Comment_761098

For those of you with missing resources, please sync the app (press the Home button on your iOS device and open the app again) - do the correct number of resources now appear in the Library?

No.

JimTowler

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761196#Comment_761196

Alabama,

Only because you have directly asked me a question:

Yes its true you spend a lot of time attempting to help people. And if you review my hundreds of posts you will find times I've thanked you and you have directly or indirectly helped me.

However I asked you not to say something, and remember who were writing to me when you used it.

There are a 1000 replies you could have used, or even to say nothing. Instead I heard you say its OK because Sienfield used it.

Lets not talk OK.

Regards,

Jim

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761208#Comment_761208

I apologize for what you found offensive, which was not my intent. I posted the link to help provide context... The word in that usage is common. It is, however, in my practice to avoid offense when possible.

I still don't understand your attitude. When a brother offends you, you should go to him. Do you not think it was offensive to me to say that you have broken your own rule not to speak to me? Is that "ok"? Furthermore, your post implies that I offended you at some point in the past (you weren't creating a rule, you had broken an existing one).

What I really don't get is the animosity that appears when there is a disagreement. Can't people disagree and still be friendly? The funny thing is that for the most part I haven't disagreed... My only concern was to help forum members like yourself to understand that there are drawbacks to downloading large amounts of resources... [:s]

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761206#Comment_761206

For those of you with missing resources, please sync the app (press the Home button on your iOS device and open the app again) - do the correct number of resources now appear in the Library?

No.

I did make a discovery... By performing a simple search (I used "dad" to look for a book), the entire library became visible again. Previously only 4 download resources were shown, even with a soft/hard reset.

JimTowler

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761221#Comment_761221

I apologize for what you found offensive, which was not my intent ...

Alabama,

While I am not convinced you are correct to discourage people to download as many resources as they want, I accept your right to recommend that to users. But that’s not what upset me - the download thing is just me not agreeing with you and thinking your advice is maybe not well supported by facts. It’s clearly not what many users want because so many people push back many times when you recommend it on the forum.

What upset me is your suggestion and use of Seinfield to so easily dismiss my simple request to not write to me using language I find offensive. If you read back I asked very nice and said please. Had you not said anything it would have been OK. Equally I could have never asked, but how would you then know your words are offensive to some people and cultures?

Yes my comment about me breaking my own rule was maybe best left unsaid. You might recall we have clashed in the past and basically we agreed I would leave you alone and not react to the things you say that I struggle with at times. I’ve been good and held my mouth shut for years if you look back over the forum. I should have remained quiet. Please forgive me.

And I accept your word that you did not intend to offend. Thank you. And as I wrote a few posts back, yes, you do offer help to many and I thanked you for that too.

Let’s live in peace, even if we don’t talk much.

Your brother in Christ,

Jim

Tim Taylor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761238#Comment_761238

Getting this topic back, well, on topic... Another reason why I believe it's possible for FL mobile apps to not be so server dependent is because Accordance (and many other apps) has done it nicely. Did you know you can even do advanced Greek and Hebrew morphology searches in Accordance for iOS without being connected to the Internet at all? Meanwhile the FL mobile apps don't even let you make a basic word lookup without connecting to the FL servers. The contrast is striking.

And just for clarity. I don't mean to come across as complaining or overly negative. There are many many features in the mobile apps that I absolutely love (advanced highlighting for example)! I am very thankful for many things. I am simply just wanting to politely and respectfully encourage FL to take the next step and not get stuck in a mindset of complacency as to how their mobile apps should function. Great things are possible, let's not settle for less. That's all I'm saying.

JimTowler

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761244#Comment_761244

I am simply just wanting to politely and respectfully encourage FL to take the next step and not get stuck in a mindset of complacency as to how their mobile apps should function.

Yes - what Tim said!

My phone has 1 GB of RAM, 128 GB of flash, and the CPU is a dual-core 1.4 GHz beastie. So what was impossible a year years ago for mobile, is now not so very hard. I think my current phone is more powerful than the Windows Vista laptop I ran Logos 4 on. The old limits need not apply.

I do accept that some of the most heavy lifting is best done by web calls to the server farm at Faithlife, but new mobile devices are not the wimps of a few years ago!

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/761252#Comment_761252

Please see https://community.logos.com/forums/p/115062/761303.aspx#761303 for more information on the server issue.