Can Logos Make Faster Software?

The best thing you can do is install an SSD, I don't consider Logos to be slow on my current machines.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/764952#Comment_764952

I have a quad core i7 2.3 Ghz with an SSD a reboot of my computer takes under 15 seconds. While starting Verbum takes over a minute (till the music chime, I just timed it 62 seconds) and even longer for the home page to get loaded. I do know there are faster computers but mine is fairly speedy and having a Bible APP take that long to load is frustrating, Accordance loads in under 5 seconds, Olivetree in less than half that time. I am aware that Logos/Verbum has a lot of bells a whistles that are not on the other two and my slow internet connection may contribute to Verbum's slow start, but by any standard of software loading beyond games Logos software is slower to start up and doing similar searches and greek/hebrew language tasks it is slower than the above two mentioned software. Info pane/resource guide populates far quicker than a passage guide, although I will say that FL PG is more robust than that others but even when pared down to make them quite equal FL apps loose out. I find FL apps an acceptable speed most of the time, but I would never call them speedy, A tortoise may be a rocket fast animal compared to a snail (i.e. book s vs computer's), but it's mean it is fast compared to other quadrupeds.

-Dan

William Gabriel

Hi Tony. I'm sure we'd all appreciate faster software. There are things you can do to speed Logos up on your system as abondservant suggests.

However, I'm not sure if moving to Qt will make much of a change. I don't think it's the actual UI that's causing the slowness. I think it's the back-end processing that slows things down the most. One of the reasons it may look like it's the front end is that the two parts of the system (UI & back end) don't appear to be fully independent (to be fair, it seems to have gotten better over the years). In other words, if they magically switched to Qt, I think you'd have the same experience today.

The biggest improvements they can make are: 1. continue to decouple ui and processing so that ui is always responsive (users will think it's fast even if it's not), 2. continue to rewrite critical paths in c++ as they've started doing, 3. revisit algorithms used for data structures and search.

If someone were to make a cross-platform application today, Qt would be an excellent place to start. But Logos started as Windows only, so it makes good business sense to keep the C# code they've invested in and tweak a few things to make it work on Mac.

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/764952#Comment_764952

The best thing you can do is install an SSD, I don't consider Logos to be slow on my current machines.

Same here. Before installing SSDs Logos would run very slowly but now I hardly notice any speed challenges.

Lew Worthington

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/765005#Comment_765005

However, I'm not sure if moving to Qt will make much of a change. I don't think it's the actual UI that's causing the slowness. I think it's the back-end processing that slows things down the most.

I was going to say the same thing, but you beat me to it. [:)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/765008#Comment_765008

But don't the competing programs also have the same types of processes? Also, how would that affect boot up speed?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/765019#Comment_765019

I was sitting here thinking "I know how fast mine starts. It was under 10 seconds when 6 was released. It was WAYYYYY faster than 5.

Today I'm sitting here after 2:40 seconds and still waiting for it to finish coming up.

This MAY be in part due to my ISP doing work on the lines today... fwiw - 3:04 now, and still it hasn't come up.

Going to have to tell it to work offline and see how that goes next. Or disable my internet connection and test again.

3:40 now, and still it hasn't loaded.

4:00 and nothing.

4:30 still waiting. OK this is getting ridiculous.

5:00 I give up, I'm going to reboot my pc, disable my network connection and try again.

After rebooting - with nothing running it took only 12.9 seconds to start Logos.

Might think about what else is running when you do your time tests the difference was substantial for me.

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/764952#Comment_764952

And if you're willing to settle for 80-85% of SSD performance at only 20% of the cost, consider a hybrid disk drive. (I moved from a hybrid to an SSD & if I'd known I'd only get an additional 15% performance on the SSD, I'd have stuck with the hybrid drive.)

Here's a link to some prices that are pretty compelling: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=a9_sc_1?rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Ahybrid+disk+drive&keywords=hybrid+disk+drive&ie=UTF8&qid=1442949833

And here's a link to support for the performance numbers I quoted: http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/electronics/detail-page/sc_b00691wmjg-01chart_lg.jpg

FWIW, I've installed both h/d drive & SSD, & by far it's easier to install an H/D--which the hybrid drive appears to be, to the computer (no requirement to mess with boot order or anything else in the BIOS, as there is with SSD install).

Lastly, whatever h/d drive you have now will fit nicely into a $20 case as a USB connected mass storage drive, after installation.

Blessings on whatever you decide!

Mark Barnes

I wonder if they can move to a lighter platform that runs faster on a wider range of machines like many of their competitors?

Logos is a huge, complex programme — far more powerful than any of its competitors. I have an i7 processor with SSD. Adobe Photoshop takes around 22s to launch to a blank starting workspace (15s to do so a second time). That's almost identical with the speed it takes my to launch Logos, and is a fairer comparison IMO.

Moving to a lighter framework is all well and good, but it means that Logos developers will have to spend more time and money coding features that come for free in a large framework like WPF and .NET. I'm sure the could move to a lighter platform that runs faster on a wider range of machines - but they could only do so by removing the features that makes Logos the leader in Biblical studies.

Deacon Steve

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/765002#Comment_765002

I have a quad core i7 2.3 Ghz with an SSD a reboot of my computer takes under 15 seconds. While starting Verbum takes over a minute (till the music chime, I just timed it 62 seconds) and even longer for the home page to get loaded. ......

Dan,

I am having a shorter start time for Verbum with a standard, mechanical 5400 RPM hard drive, I know the whole thing is a manual start and stop... for me with the stopwatch on the iPhone.

Can you provide an updated timing?

Steve

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766081#Comment_766081

Logos has continually improved. It's way snappier than in Logos 4. I frankly don't care anymore if my main machine still has a 5400 RPM drive. I do recommend an SSD or at least a hybrid if you are buying a new computer, but I find L6 to be very good as long as you have a decent CPU and enough RAM. I expect the next generation will be even better.

George Somsel

I know that Faithlife/Logos made the decision several years ago to move to a new Windows-based platform (WPF) that is graphically intensive and really slow on many systems with slower processors and hard disks.

I wonder if they can move to a lighter platform that runs faster on a wider range of machines like many of their competitors?

Qt would be a good choice as it is cross-platform and very fast. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_(software) Scrivener is Qt based and runs fast on all of my systems.

I don't know what hardware you have, but even on my laptop, which tends to be a bit slow, I don't have a problem. On the desktop it isn't slow at all.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766081#Comment_766081

Dan,

I am having a shorter start time for Verbum with a standard, mechanical 5400 RPM hard drive, I know the whole thing is a manual start and stop... for me with the stopwatch on the iPhone.

Can you provide an updated timing?

I am on satellite internet connection and am on a mac, the Mac version may take longer to load. I personally like i said am not overly concerned with the speed just saying it is no speed demon starting up. And before having a SSD it was not a tolerable speed. I suspect it is far speedier in windows and like i said if I started it up on faster internet it might be far speedier too... I did start it up this afternoon as i had my computer in a larger centre to upgrade my iPad to iOS 9, it may have well started faster, but it seemed pretty typical speed to me, even though i was on a fast connection. And the ultra speedy OT BR is a very barebones program, it;s resource guide has many similar features to FL programs but it is really like comparing a glossary to full dictionary.

-Dan

PS: I just turned my WiFi off and tried it again. this start up time was 30 seconds showing that probably half of my slowness is my connection speed.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766156#Comment_766156

I have a low-end laptop with a N2840 Bay Trail. Performance is acceptable if I turn off Internet. Accordance is much faster on that machine. On my Desktop with a dual-core 3GHz AMD and Windows 7, Logos is much faster....

Lankford Oxendine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766166#Comment_766166

Logos could definitely improve in the speed department but I don't believe it is a priority for FL. It seems as if FL believes that Logos is fast enough. I have several students/colleagues comment to me about the slowness of Logos and my reply is always the same - "if you want something faster go to a competitor because I doubt Logos is going to get faster anytime soon".

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766161#Comment_766161

Dan,

I am having a shorter start time for Verbum with a standard, mechanical 5400 RPM hard drive, I know the whole thing is a manual start and stop... for me with the stopwatch on the iPhone.

Can you provide an updated timing?

I am on satellite internet connection and am on a mac, the Mac version may take longer to load. I personally like i said am not overly concerned with the speed just saying it is no speed demon starting up. And before having a SSD it was not a tolerable speed. I suspect it is far speedier in windows and like i said if I started it up on faster internet it might be far speedier too... I did start it up this afternoon as i had my computer in a larger centre to upgrade my iPad to iOS 9, it may have well started faster, but it seemed pretty typical speed to me, even though i was on a fast connection. And the ultra speedy OT BR is a very barebones program, it;s resource guide has many similar features to FL programs but it is really like comparing a glossary to full dictionary.

-Dan

PS: I just turned my WiFi off and tried it again. this start up time was 30 seconds showing that probably half of my slowness is my connection speed.

I may have missed where you described your machine, but 32bit/64 bit will make a difference as well.

32 bits is moving data in a wheel barrel, 64 is like a cargo ship full of shipping containers. 33 bits is twice as much data as 32, 34 is twice as much data as 33, and 4 times as much as 32 - and so forth.

The brand of processor plays a BIG role in speed right now too. Depending on how the program is coded.

Intel excells in processing data like this:
----------------------------------------

AMD excells in processing data like this:
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AMD is processing more threads of data much slower, Intel is processing single threaded data much faster. What this means is encryption, and different things when coded to take full advantage of an AMD chip is going to be MUCH faster on AMD than intel (at least in theory). BUT if its not coded to support that feature of AMD, then Intel is MUCH faster than AMD.

However Logos was coded - its quite telling that my AMD 8350 (with 32gb of ram, and an ssd) can bring logos up in 12 seconds, when others with an intel i7 (what generation was that?) brings logos up in 22-30. All in all that means Logos is quite well coded I should think. I would suspect its taking advantage of the benefits of whichever processor you are using.

Logos could definitely improve in the speed department but I don't believe it is a priority for FL. It seems as if FL believes that Logos is fast enough. I have several students/colleagues comment to me about the slowness of Logos and my reply is always the same - "if you want something faster go to a competitor because I doubt Logos is going to get faster anytime soon".

Finally, Lankford, I feel like you might be a little overly dour in tone - you clearly don't remember the older versions of Logos. They ARE listening, and making LOTS of changes to speed things up.

I went from 45 second boot times, to boot times under 10 seconds (before the good people of the forums complained and got the home page changed - which is probably what caused the 2-3 second difference from then to now). Logos 4 - on more or less the same hardware (phenom II x6), you started it, went and got a warm beverage, checked the mail box, made a slice of toast, ate, drank, and then sat down at your computer hoping it was ready. (there may be a little creative license in there, but you get the point - it was slow.)

Logos DOES listen - especially when we people of the forums gripe. Maybe there is some room for improvement - I'm not a programmer. But they do listen to our complaints. They do adjust things, they have been making it faster. Cheer up! give them some time. it is getting better

By the time logos 7 is released it should be able to run on my toaster, and start faster than I can load it with bread (lets hope).

EDITED to add quotes of the intel machine specs listed:

I wonder if they can move to a lighter platform that runs faster on a wider range of machines like many of their competitors?

Logos is a huge, complex programme — far more powerful than any of its competitors. I have an i7 processor with SSD. Adobe Photoshop takes around 22s to launch to a blank starting workspace (15s to do so a second time). That's almost identical with the speed it takes my to launch Logos, and is a fairer comparison IMO.

Moving to a lighter framework is all well and good, but it means that Logos developers will have to spend more time and money coding features that come for free in a large framework like WPF and .NET. I'm sure the could move to a lighter platform that runs faster on a wider range of machines - but they could only do so by removing the features that makes Logos the leader in Biblical studies.

I have a quad core i7 2.3 Ghz with an SSD a reboot of my computer takes under 15 seconds. While starting Verbum takes over a minute (till the music chime, I just timed it 62 seconds) and even longer for the home page to get loaded. I do know there are faster computers but mine is fairly speedy and having a Bible APP take that long to load is frustrating, Accordance loads in under 5 seconds, Olivetree in less than half that time. I am aware that Logos/Verbum has a lot of bells a whistles that are not on the other two and my slow internet connection may contribute to Verbum's slow start, but by any standard of software loading beyond games Logos software is slower to start up and doing similar searches and greek/hebrew language tasks it is slower than the above two mentioned software. Info pane/resource guide populates far quicker than a passage guide, although I will say that FL PG is more robust than that others but even when pared down to make them quite equal FL apps loose out. I find FL apps an acceptable speed most of the time, but I would never call them speedy, A tortoise may be a rocket fast animal compared to a snail (i.e. book s vs computer's), but it's mean it is fast compared to other quadrupeds.

-Dan

Lankford Oxendine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766220#Comment_766220

Finally, Lankford, I feel like you might be a little overly dour in tone - you clearly don't remember the older versions of Logos. They ARE listening, and making LOTS of changes to speed things up.

I clearly do remember the past history of Logos. You're right in that Logos 4 was very slow and Logos 5 made a great leap in performance but I also remember when Logos 6 was first released- it was just as slow as Logos 4 in many areas. In the following few months, FL made performance improvements to Logos 6 but it is still not a fast program. In the last 6-8 months I don't recall any changes to Logos 6 in areas of performance. Once the program gets fast enough, it seems as if the attention gets focused on adding new features. Perhaps you know something about the future and Logos 7? I would love to be proven wrong and have FL come out with an update/new version that greatly increases performance. My school has started to investigate the option of moving to a competitor because of all the complaints concerning the slowness in Logos. I wonder if you have recently tried any of Logos competitors? If not, then don't, because ignorance truly is bliss. Logos has several advantages over others (features, resources) but it is way behind in the speed department. Any review of Logos and its competitors will reveal that. A few months ago a video on youtube was posted comparing speed and it was not pretty for Logos.

Mike Childs

To start Logos 6 on my computer the first time this morning took 15 seconds to open to a 3 window pane desktop, with passage guide open in the first window, 5 Bibles in the second window, and BDAG open in the third window.

Closed it and restart took 10 seconds. (No doubt it could be a bit slower with a poor internet connection.)

I have Surface pro 3, i7 processor, and SSD. I run Windows 10. I run 64 bit windows.

I know the Surface pro 3 is out of the price range for many. I have been there, believe me. But for those that can afford it, I would point out that it can run Logos 6 very fast and snappy on a great tablet / lap top machine, and right now they Surface Pro 3 is on sale at a couple hundred dollars off, (as they prepare for the Surface Pro 4). Logos is the only reason that I would personally invest in the Surface Pro 3, but it is well worth it to me.

PEW

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766238#Comment_766238

Well i have friends that have accordance 11 and Logos 6. While the competitor is like a bullet, I noticed that Logos6 still shine in may ways. Speed was an issue when I was using a waaaay older computer. But now im on SSD, 4GB RAM, and roughly 1.3Ghz. I think it is already fairly snappy (after indexing).

I think Logos6 comparable to Photoshop. They are heavy weight softwares. But once open, it is pretty fast. Of course, speed improvement is always welcome!!! Just make sure you don't have too many windows linked.
But again, any speed improvement is WELCOME!!!

Chuck Forsythe

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766248#Comment_766248

Do thing like collections slow down either the load time or function of Logos 6?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766220#Comment_766220

However Logos was coded - its quite telling that my AMD 8350 (with 32gb of ram, and an ssd) can bring logos up in 12 seconds, when others with an intel i7 (what generation was that?) brings logos up in 22-30. All in all that means Logos is quite well coded I should think. I would suspect its taking advantage of the benefits of whichever processor you are using.

Reminder I am on a macintosh... my i7 quad core is an Ivy Bridge edition 365QM, and macs have been fully 64 bit since 2008.

-dan

Michael

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766246#Comment_766246

To start Logos 6 on my computer the first time this morning took 15 seconds to open to a 3 window pane desktop, with passage guide open in the first window, 5 Bibles in the second window, and BDAG open in the third window.

Closed it and restart took 10 seconds. (No doubt it could be a bit slower with a poor internet connection.)

I have Surface pro 3, i7 processor, and SSD. I run Windows 10. I run 64 bit windows.

I know the Surface pro 3 is out of the price range for many. I have been there, believe me. But for those that can afford it, I would point out that it can run Logos 6 very fast and snappy on a great tablet / lap top machine, and right now they Surface Pro 3 is on sale at a couple hundred dollars off, (as they prepare for the Surface Pro 4). Logos is the only reason that I would personally invest in the Surface Pro 3, but it is well worth it to me.

I wholeheartedly agree. I purchased a Surface Pro 3 specifically for Logos usage. It's my ideal form factor. I'd be curious how fast Logos feels on the new MacBook Pro with it's new M.2 SSD which has a read speed almost 3 times faster than most at 1400 Mb/s real world speeds. I'm hoping the Surface Pro 4 will use an M.2 SSD as well.

Anyone on here have a 2015 MacBook Pro?

(‾◡◝)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766335#Comment_766335

I was going to make a suggestion that dissatisfied people with legacy equipment return to books/paper/pencil/trips to the library/etc. for a period of time so that they can compare their current situation with what's behind them, instead of bemoaning what they don't have that lies ahead.

But it would probably sound too snarky, possibly elitist and uncaring, and perhaps even sanctimonious.

So I won't. [*-)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766335#Comment_766335

Reminder I am on a macintosh... my i7 quad core is an Ivy Bridge edition 365QM, and macs have been fully 64 bit since 2008.

-dan

Yeah I don't have a lot of experience or knowledge working with macs.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766251#Comment_766251

Do thing like collections slow down either the load time or function of Logos 6?

Having lots of complex collections slows down load time a fair bit, as the collections are loaded into a cache at start-up. According to the log, it took 11.72 seconds last time I loaded Logos. (In reality, it didn't slow things down by quite that much as that command was run in parallel with other commands, but it would have added several seconds.)

Sync makes a huge difference, especially if you have multiple devices. For example, if you work all day in the office, then come home and fire up Logos on your home computer, it will take much longer than normal to start up.

Other things can slow start times up on occasion, sometimes seemingly at random:

Resource updates.
Licence changes.
Community metadata updates.

Sometimes these compound. For example, Logos might calculate all your collections, then download some community metadata or sync your tags, but then need to re-calculate all your collections again, in case the rules apply different to the new metadata.

All this is assuming a blank workspace. If you're loading to a layout, you can assume load times will increase very, very sharply, particularly if your layout contains:

Lots of resources, and/or
Visual filters, and/or
Searches, and/or
Guides

Too many guides with too many sections, and poorly constructed visual filters are the main cause for slow down if you're opening up to a layout.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766335#Comment_766335

Reminder I am on a macintosh... my i7 quad core is an Ivy Bridge edition 365QM, and macs have been fully 64 bit since 2008.

If your start times are consistently terrible, logs would help us see why, and perhaps make some suggestions.

I have a similar spec (albeit Windows), and with a large library, and I see Logos loading in about 20s to a blank workspace.

Geo Philips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766375#Comment_766375

Does anyone leave Logos running all the time, allowing the laptop/computer to hibernate or sleep as needed? If yes, is that a better experience than exiting and restarting Logos?

Reminder I am on a macintosh... my i7 quad core is an Ivy Bridge edition 365QM, and macs have been fully 64 bit since 2008.

If your start times are consistently terrible, logs would help us see why, and perhaps make some suggestions.

I have a similar spec (albeit Windows), and with a large library, and I see Logos loading in about 20s to a blank workspace.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766396#Comment_766396

I normally do on my laptop, and haven't had trouble. Your mileage may vary though. Give it a shot and report back!

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766400#Comment_766400

I've noticed some small improvements with Win 10 and I'm hoping the next gen of OS X will do the same on the Mac.

The more stuff you have running in the background also takes a toll. Cheapest upgrade is to turn off the stuff you don't really need.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766396#Comment_766396

Does anyone leave Logos running all the time, allowing the laptop/computer to hibernate or sleep as needed? If yes, is that a better experience than exiting and restarting Logos?

Reminder I am on a macintosh... my i7 quad core is an Ivy Bridge edition 365QM, and macs have been fully 64 bit since 2008.

If your start times are consistently terrible, logs would help us see why, and perhaps make some suggestions.

I have a similar spec (albeit Windows), and with a large library, and I see Logos loading in about 20s to a blank workspace.

Sleeping is good.. i use to do that a lot and Mark, I appreciate the advice. Speed is not a big issue with me, i will admit when I am on my mobility scooter i enjoy being able to go fast, but i am guessing on foot i would loose most races to the tortoise... As I have shown with no connection my start time is as low as 30 seconds only a few more than yours Mark... I was just trying to say I could understand how someone might find Logos/Verbum slow in some ways. Because of my over all set up I know it will take a minute to load, but that is not a major hardship to me in anyway, I did not mean to seem like I was complaining about Verbum's speed, but trying to share my experience to say how I can see how some could consider Logos/Verbum less than an ideal speed. A professor spoke recently about his love of another Bible software and telling about how he can do in 3 minutes what before computers would take him 3 months of work (which really leaves me wondering where is his two volumes on Acts, but I digress). Now I would bet the same thing can be done with Logos software and if not within 3 minutes, definitely under 4 (and who knows maybe under 3). I find Verbum a blessing and it allows me to study and I know it contains more features than I require and because of it's complexity it takes longer to start up. I consider it an acceptable start up time and all in all far speedier than grabbing books out and open them up. [8-|]

-Dan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766450#Comment_766450

Turning off updates and indexing as well as the Internet definitely makes it faster. It would be nice if Logos would add "switches" to turn off other functions to speed things up on slower systems. Or make a "light mode" for quick searches and such...

Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766451#Comment_766451

Turning off updates and indexing as well as the Internet definitely makes it faster. It would be nice if Logos would add "switches" to turn off other functions to speed things up on slower systems. Or make a "light mode" for quick searches and such...

That's an excellent suggestion. [Y]

delete12066188

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766454#Comment_766454

spent time on Prayer untill you whait for Logos to be ready. ;-)

JT (alabama24)

I wonder if they can move to a lighter platform that runs faster on a wider range of machines like many of their competitors?

In a way, they are doing this with the web app.

Geo Philips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/766539#Comment_766539

Yes. The web app should be Logos lite. I am sure there will be a share of complaints about how that will be an online only experience but the Web is the platform of the future and it does have the potential of offering you pretty much the same functionality as the desktop app but accessible through a wide range of machines.

I wonder if they can move to a lighter platform that runs faster on a wider range of machines like many of their competitors?

In a way, they are doing this with the web app.