Faithlife, Please Fix the Early Church Fathers
The background for this thread can be found here: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/119830.aspx
There are two versions of the Early Church Fathers sold by Faithlife, one for Protestants and one for Catholics:
https://www.logos.com/product/5771/early-church-fathers-protestant-edition
https://www.logos.com/product/7832/early-church-fathers-special-catholic-edition
Per the description on the product page for the Catholic Edition:
"The Early Church Fathers comes in two versions, Protestant and Catholic. Simply put, the difference is that the Protestant edition contains additional front matter written at a later date. There is no difference in the actual ECF text."
There are two problems I would like to suggest be fixed.
1. Faithlife prides itself on stating that users never pay for the same product twice, but in this case users who already own one version of the Early Church Fathers essentially do pay for the same product twice whenever they purchase a package that includes the other version. Someone who already owns the Catholic version will at least can some additional content, but someone who already owns the Protestant version will be paying for a stripped-down (value subtracted, rather than value added) version of what they already own. Since the set is public domain and no royalties are involved (as far as I know), why charge users twice? It seems like owners of the Protestant version should not have to pay anything for the Catholic version and owners of the Catholic version should pay at most an extremely small amount for the Protestant version.
2. Several users (see first link I provided) have commented on the fact that some books sold by Logos link to the Protestant version and some books link to the Catholic version. In other words, for all links to work, users have to purchase BOTH editions of this set. They each sell for $229.95, so that duplicate ownership isn't necessarily cheap. Mark Barnes has already outlined a solution to this problem (again, see first link). Faithlife fixed a similar problem in the past with Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics by Wallace. I would like to suggest that the fix described by Mark be implemented.
I am sure Faithlife has its reasons, but I personally do not see the value in even maintaining separate editions if the only difference is the removal of material that one group or the other might not agree with. I am not aware of any other products sold by Faithlife where this has happened, and it is an understatement to say that other products also have content that one group or another strongly objects to. If a Catholic publisher put out an edition of this set that included Catholic notes, and a Protestant publisher put out another edition of the set that included Protestant notes, then selling both sets would make sense. That is not the case here.
Comments
1. Faithlife prides itself on stating that users never pay for the same product twice, but in this case users who already own one version of the Early Church Fathers essentially do pay for the same product twice whenever they purchase a package that includes the other version.
Matthew are you sure about this? I ask because long time ago that may have been the case but i don't think it is so presently, i could be wrong. When I upgraded to a verbum base package my sales rep did not charge me for the catholic edition.
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Matthew are you sure about this?
I can't speak for what individual sales reps may do, but the website definitely charges. I only own the Protestant version, and every bundle or package I look at that includes the Catholic version lists it among the titles that are "new to me," and there is a corresponding price listed that is not $0.00. There is nothing online to indicate that owners of one version are not being charged for the other, and that gives me great pause in buying certain bundles/packages.
Even if a sales rep did offer me the Catholic version for free (please do!), that would not solve the links problem. I would want to hide one set so I don't get duplicate search results, but I couldn't hide one set or else not all links in my library would work, apparently.
EDIT: Here is a screenshot showing me being charged for it in an Orthodox package. Apologies for the sloppy circling job - it was done from my phone rather than my desktop!
Thanks Matthew for taking the time to respond. I now see what you mean, hopefully FL will address this.
Regards.
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Yes, please fix this!
Even if a sales rep did offer me the Catholic version for free (please do!), that would not solve the links problem.
I would accept a free (Protestant) version too.
In fact, one simple if non-ideal workaround from FL's point of view might be to set the price of one version to $0.00 if you own the other. This would allow us customers not to pay for the same work twice while not confusing people by a sudden and inexplicable download of duplicate resources if FL simply unlocked the other set automatically for those of us who only have one of them.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
In fact, one simple if non-ideal workaround from FL's point of view might be to set the price of one version to $0.00 if you own the other. This would allow us customers not to pay for the same work twice while not confusing people by a sudden and inexplicable download of duplicate resources if FL simply unlocked the other set automatically for those of us who only have one of them.
If Faithlife were willing to do this, it would certainly be a step in the right direction, as well as a stopgap until a proper fix is available for the linking situation. It might even increase sales for people to know they no longer have to pay for such an expensive set twice! [Y]
"The Early Church Fathers comes in two versions, Protestant and Catholic. Simply put, the difference is that the Protestant edition contains additional front matter written at a later date. There is no difference in the actual ECF text."
[:/] The answer, it seems is rather simple to my little noggin. One resource, not two. Put the protestant material in a "separate" book.
Of course, this changes the format from the dead tree version... but hey it is public domain.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you.
The answer, it seems is rather simple to my little noggin. One resource, not two. Put the protestant material in a "separate" book.
No, no, no ... take it one step further ... a simple Visual Filter ... if we can block pericope headings, certainly we can filter notes and introductions.
(Good thought on your part, actually).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
This is going back a ways, so excuse me if I'm mistaken, or if policies have changed.
BUT having the protestant edition, I got a good discount on a package (anglican perhaps) that had the catholic version in it as I already owned the protestant.
I pointed that out to my salesperson, and he agree with me that it would be foolish for them to charge me more since its basically the same books with a different title, AND that protestant was a superset of catholic.
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BUT having the protestant edition, I got a good discount on a package (anglican perhaps) that had the catholic version in it as I already owned the protestant.
I pointed that out to my salesperson, and he agree with me that it would be foolish for them to charge me more since its basically the same books with a different title, AND that protestant was a superset of catholic
I tried doing the same thing in reverse, owed the catholic version, tried to get a discount on the protestant version they said "No way Jose".
Ended up buying the protestante version as part of the Reformed Silver, but with out any dynamic pricing for the catholic version of the fathers that I owed.
I keep hearing that it pays to talk to a salesman on the phone, but my experiences has been that it is a waste of my time.
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That sounds perfectly reasonable MJ.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you.
The answer, it seems is rather simple to my little noggin. One resource, not two. Put the protestant material in a "separate" book.
I still don't understand why two versions were produced to begin with rather than leaving the original as it was. Were there users who were so offended that pressure was put on Faithlife to separate all material that was contrary to the views of those users? Are there any other examples of this being done by Faithlife?
Other users may have more info, but to my knowledge no, this is the only time I am aware of that they have done this.
If it was as a result of complaints, it must have been the catholics because they are the ones with fewer resources in their version. The protestant edition has all of the catholic edition, and the protestant fathers in addition.
However I've read more complaining about their being two separate packages, and the angst that has caused, than I have about protestants having catholics in their library, or vice versa. In fact, the only thing I remember people complaining about is that there are two unique resources where there should only be one; a legitimate gripe.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
If it was as a result of complaints, it must have been the catholics because they are the ones with fewer resources in their version. The protestant edition has all of the catholic edition, and the protestant fathers in addition.
Actually, the two collections have the same number of volumes, and there were no "Protestant fathers" to omit.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
If it was as a result of complaints, it must have been the catholics because they are the ones with fewer resources in their version. The protestant edition has all of the catholic edition, and the protestant fathers in addition.
There are the same number of resources, and the same number of 'fathers'. In fact, there were no 'protestant' fathers, given that these writings predate the reformation by about 1,000 years.
The only distinction is that the Catholic edition is missing some of the introductory material which many people view as anti-Catholic in places.
One quick example that I found: "If ever American Romanism becomes sufficiently enlightened and purified to comprehend this great Carthaginian Father [Cyprian], and to speak in his tones to the Bishop of Rome, a glorious reformation of this alien religion will be the result;"
That's the sort of thing that Logos removed, but they kept all of the Fathers themselves.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
One quick example that I found: "If ever American Romanism becomes sufficiently enlightened and purified to comprehend this great Carthaginian Father [Cyprian], and to speak in his tones to the Bishop of Rome, a glorious reformation of this alien religion will be the result;"That's the sort of thing that Logos removed, but they kept all of the Fathers themselves.
Even so, the decision to remove material seems arbitrary unless there was something else going on that we aren't privy to. Anti-Protestant material hasn't been removed from resources published by Catholics, and apparently no anti-Catholic material has been removed from other resources published by Protestants. Same with Calvinism/Arminianism, etc. Our libraries would be small indeed if that sort of approach was ever universally taken!
Even so, the decision to remove material seems arbitrary unless there was something else going on that we aren't privy to. Anti-Protestant material hasn't been removed from resources published by Catholics, and apparently no anti-Catholic material has been removed from other resources published by Protestants. Same with Calvinism/Arminianism, etc. Our libraries would be small indeed if that sort of approach was ever universally taken!
That's not entirely true. You could argue, for example, that deuterocanonical books were removed from some digital Bibles to suit the protestant market because many protestants would feel strongly that they didn't want those books in their Bibles.
Remember this decision was taken 20-25 years ago when Logos/Faithlife was a very different beast. I don't know whether it was the right decision, but I don't think we need to be looking for any motivation or reason other than Logos wanting remove any possible reasons that might put some purchasers off.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
I don't know whether it was the right decision, but I don't think we need to be looking for any motivation or reason other than Logos wanting remove any possible reasons that might put some purchasers off.
We are in agreement. My point was that there had to be a reason Faithlife chose to remove material from this particular resource and not any other. Until Faithlife comments, we won't know for sure, but I tend to agree that it had something to do with marketing and sales. I was not trying to suggest a conspiracy or some sort of shady motive, but there did have to be a pretty compelling reason, even if only a financial one. Your point about Bibles is not exactly parallel since the same fathers are included in both editions, but I get what you are trying to say.
EDIT: I don't want this thread to become confrontational, and I don't think it has. I am grateful for the effort Faithlife put into realeasing the resource to begin with, and I am grateful multiple staff members are looking into possibilities to improve it. Please do not take my noting the unusualness of the situation as an accusation against Faithlife, as it was not.
FYI, back in 2012 we were told that Logos were "working on a possible solution": https://community.logos.com/forums/p/44241/329279.aspx#329279
I suggested at the time that could be as simple as the software intercepting links for one version and passing them to the other version (if only one version exists). That would be a simpler solution to the one I suggested in the other thread, as it works around rather than solves the problem. But it probably wouldn't be able support prioritisation, and would have to be implemented independently on mobile and web. But it would certainly be a lot better than nothing.
(Perhaps at the same time Logos could do the same for the two editions of the Tyndale New Testament Commentaries and Bible Speaks Today commentaries.)
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!