Misleading Logos 7 Marketing Statements - Is this Deliberate?

"The Logos 7 Full Feature Set is in Bronze and above. It includes—you guessed it—all the features of Logos 7."

Why is this statement made when it is patently untrue? The Bible Browser Tool is "a feature of Logos 7" and it is not included. Yes, most readers would indeed guess that "Full Feature Set" means "All the Features" as stated here, but that's not true, is it Logos?

There is no "*see below" information to qualify this statement, to inform customers that some features are not included.

See it here ... https://blog.logos.com/2016/09/get-logos-7-options-clearly-explained/ - I've included a screengrab in case it gets edited.

Is this deliberately misleading or is it just unfortunately worded?

Would someone from Logos care to comment?

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David Carter

"The Logos 7 Full Feature Set is in Bronze and above. It includes—you guessed it—all the features of Logos 7."

Why is this statement made when it is patently untrue? The Bible Browser Tool is "a feature of Logos 7" and it is not included. Yes, most readers would indeed guess that "Full Feature Set" means "All the Features" as stated here, but that's not true, is it Logos?

There is no "*see below" information to qualify this statement, to inform customers that some features are not included.

See it here ... https://blog.logos.com/2016/09/get-logos-7-options-clearly-explained/ - I've included a screengrab in case it gets edited.

Is this deliberately misleading or is it just unfortunately worded?

Would someone from Logos care to comment?

I'm not from Logos - but I will make the comment that according to this page the Bible Browser is exclusive to a Logos Now membership https://www.logos.com/logos-pro/bible-browser

Richard Lyall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851002#Comment_851002

I'm not from Logos - but I will make the comment that according to this page the Bible Browser is exclusive to a Logos Now membership https://www.logos.com/logos-pro/bible-browser

Fair enough, but on this page, an untrue statement has been made. If a customer didn't read any other pages, but made a purchase based on this page alone, they would have a strong case that they had been misled.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851005#Comment_851005

Fair enough, but on this page, an untrue statement has been made.

It's certainly misleading, but I don't think that it is untrue. Faithlife is defining the Logos 7 full feature set as one complete set of features. That complete set of features overlaps with the Logos Now features, but Logos Now also includes Bible Browser. So as Faithlife sees it, Bible Browser is not a Logos 7 feature; and thus the statement is true.

But it is definitely misleading, and that has been discussed at some length in these forums since L7 went live.

Donnie

Richard Lyall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851008#Comment_851008

It's certainly misleading, but I don't think that it is untrue. Faithlife is defining the Logos 7 full feature set as one complete set of features. That complete set of features overlaps with the Logos Now features, but Logos Now also includes Bible Browser. So as Faithlife sees it, Bible Browser is not a Logos 7 feature; and thus the statement is true.

But it is definitely misleading, and that has been discussed at some length in these forums since L7 went live.

Donnie

Yes, you're probably ultimately right, but how much of that will be transparent to an uninitiated user?

Deacon Steve

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851002#Comment_851002

Is this a question regarding the next iteration of "Now" in place today (L8)? Or something truly that is exclusive to "Now"?

If so, is there a pointer to the list of features that are exclusive to "Now" members?

Richard Lyall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851010#Comment_851010

Is this a question regarding the next iteration of "Now" in place today (L8)? Or something truly that is exclusive to "Now"?

If so, is there a pointer to the list of features that are exclusive to "Now" members?

No. To reiterate, it's about whether the following statement from the page mentioned in my OP is untrue\misleading:

"The Logos 7 Full Feature Set is in Bronze and above. It includes—you guessed it—all the features of Logos 7."

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

"The Logos 7 Full Feature Set is in Bronze and above. It includes—you guessed it—all the features of Logos 7."

Why is this statement made when it is patently untrue?

Phrase "that you can use offline" could be added, which can have permanent licenses. Logos Now membership includes online only items: e.g. "Bible Browser"

Puzzling is Full Feature Set lacking Discourse datasets (from 6.12 Now release) => What is "Your Ownership Discount"?

Would someone from Logos care to comment?

Would appreciate comment from Faithlife (corporate name changed from Logos Research Systems to Faithlife).

Keep Smiling [:)]

Myke Harbuck

... "Full Feature Set" means "All the Features" as stated here, but that's not true, is it Logos?

I think you are right. I'm usually the first to defend the Logos team (since they take so much heat), but will admit when they could do better. This is one of those cases! Regardless of the rationale for the current language, this should be reworded?

I will say, though, that your own language sounds a bit condescending (IE: "is it Logos"). Maybe you didn't mean it to be...I'm sure you are simply frustrated. But I would just charge you, as a fellow brother in Christ, to be careful that your words are seasons with love and mutual respect. Here they seem as though you are "schooling" them in some sorts...and that really doesn't help your otherwise legitimate cause. Please take my words as a charge to simply evaluate your wording, not as a judgement upon you or your cause in any way.

See it here ... https://blog.logos.com/2016/09/get-logos-7-options-clearly-explained/ - I've included a screengrab in case it gets edited.

This sounds as though you think Logos might try to sweep the issue under the rug. I don't think they will. They are generally very transparent and forthcoming with their own deficiencies and shortcomings. I don't think you have to worry about any conspiracies or edits (unless they publicly address your concern first) They'll answer your concern and, hopefully, they'll make the (needed) changes; at least I hope they will - you're point is, as I said earlier, a valid concern that should be corrected. Thanks for bringing to the attention of the Logos staff. While I do not suppose to speak for them, I am sure they would not intentionally and "deliberately" mislead they customers. As such, I suppose that they will welcome you having brought this to their attention.

Rick Ausdahl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851012#Comment_851012

Is this a question regarding the next iteration of "Now" in place today (L8)? Or something truly that is exclusive to "Now"?

If so, is there a pointer to the list of features that are exclusive to "Now" members?

No. To reiterate, it's about whether the following statement from the page mentioned in my OP is untrue\misleading:

"The Logos 7 Full Feature Set is in Bronze and above. It includes—you guessed it—all the features of Logos 7."

I don't think Faithlife intends it to be misleading, but I do think it is misleading--very misleading and have suggested in another thread that any feature that requires Logos Now should ideally only be posted/discussed in the Logos Now forum, but at the very least be clearly identified as requiring Logos Now if posted/discussed in any other forum if the thread is initiated by a Faithlife employee or responded to by a Faithlife employee. I also agree that every web page that deals with features requiring Logos Now should make that very clear.

To call a feature a Logos 7 feature when it requires Logos Now is simply going to cause ongoing confusion.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851021#Comment_851021

To call a feature a Logos 7 feature when it requires Logos Now is simply going to cause ongoing confusion.

Okay ... I'm missing something in the OP I guess. Where is a Logos Now only feature called a Logos 7 feature? I word it that way as Logos Now includes Logos 7 features ...

Deacon Steve

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851012#Comment_851012

No. To reiterate, it's about whether the following statement from the page mentioned in my OP is untrue\misleading:

"The Logos 7 Full Feature Set is in Bronze and above. It includes—you guessed it—all the features of Logos 7."

You've confirmed there are no L8 features in "Now" at this point?

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851021#Comment_851021

This is typical of the sort of thing Logos does more often than some want to admit, particularly FL themselves.

Is this a question regarding the next iteration of "Now" in place today (L8)? Or something truly that is exclusive to "Now"?

If so, is there a pointer to the list of features that are exclusive to "Now" members?

No. To reiterate, it's about whether the following statement from the page mentioned in my OP is untrue\misleading:

"The Logos 7 Full Feature Set is in Bronze and above. It includes—you guessed it—all the features of Logos 7."

I don't think Faithlife intends it to be misleading, but I do think it is misleading--very misleading and have suggested in another thread that any feature that requires Logos Now should ideally only be posted/discussed in the Logos Now forum, but at the very least be clearly identified as requiring Logos Now if posted/discussed in any other forum if the thread is initiated by a Faithlife employee or responded to by a Faithlife employee. I also agree that every web page that deals with features requiring Logos Now should make that very clear.
To call a feature a Logos 7 feature when it requires Logos Now is simply going to cause ongoing confusion.

C Stutzman

I am sorry but I do not see how that is misleading in any way. Following the links you provided it in no way states that the bible browser feature is part of the L7 full feature set. I did follow the link on the page that your link went to, and under the full list of L7 full features it is not listed anywhere. When I followed the link that you gave specifically for the bible browser, it clearly states that is a function of Logos Now.

Richard Lyall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851031#Comment_851031

You've confirmed there are no L8 features in "Now" at this point?

I've made no reference to L8 or Logos Now whatsoever.

C Stutzman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851002#Comment_851002

"The Logos 7 Full Feature Set is in Bronze and above. It includes—you guessed it—all the features of Logos 7."

Why is this statement made when it is patently untrue? The Bible Browser Tool is "a feature of Logos 7" and it is not included. Yes, most readers would indeed guess that "Full Feature Set" means "All the Features" as stated here, but that's not true, is it Logos?

There is no "*see below" information to qualify this statement, to inform customers that some features are not included.

See it here ... https://blog.logos.com/2016/09/get-logos-7-options-clearly-explained/ - I've included a screengrab in case it gets edited.

Is this deliberately misleading or is it just unfortunately worded?

Would someone from Logos care to comment?

I'm not from Logos - but I will make the comment that according to this page the Bible Browser is exclusive to a Logos Now membership https://www.logos.com/logos-pro/bible-browser

Oops. I apologize. It was Mr. Carter who gave the link. I do stand corrected. However the link that you gave in no way says anything about the bible browser. And following the link of the L7 full feature set from the link that you did give does not have anything of the bible browser. The link that David Cater gave shows that it is a Logos Now feature.

Myke Harbuck

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851036#Comment_851036

This is typical of the sort of thing Logos does more often than some want to admit, particularly FL themselves.

You seem to be among the most critical among Logos users. I'm sorry, but if you are really that displeased with Logos, and that miserable in your relationship with them, why not just move on? Why constantly be the one to offer negative, non-constructive criticisms.

I apologize for my criticism of your criticism (yes, I see the irony there). Its just that you hardly every have anything positive to say about Logos. It's almost predictable when you're going to be chiming in: when there's an OP that criticizes Logos. There must be SOMETHING they are doing right??? Will there ever be a point in which you begin to speak positively about the organization or come to the realization that its better to move on to another software provider than to continue to write criticism and speak (or in this case - write) negative words??

Please...try to see the good they do for the Bible study community, too. At least be fair and speak of the good they do along with all the bad you perceive of them. Spend some time encouraging Logos and building up the organization and the team, rather than continuing to tear them down. Try bearing with them and forgiving them as the Lord has forgiven you, my brother.

Richard Lyall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851018#Comment_851018

Oh Mike come on now, there is no need to adopt such a patronising tone, nor is your "charge" necessary or accepted! Let me explain why.

There is a place for love and mutual respect, but there is also a place for plain speaking and holding people to account who are making claims and taking our money. The two are not always mutually exclusive. It is doubly right to challenge Christian businesses to make sure their standards are higher than those in the world, and this means being careful with your claims.

I don't think Logos needs your advocacy here either - they are more than capable of speaking for themselves and I welcome their response. It may be a simple error of judgement or poor wording, but a response from them will clear up all doubt and make their purpose clear. But it is also possible that this is something that is not right and needs challenging as it appears to give a wrong impression.

Finally, my comment about "in case it gets edited" is simply there so that people don't wonder what was being referred to if they read the original post in the event that the web page is edited, and does not insinuate any wrongdoing as you seem to suggest.

Myke Harbuck

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851030#Comment_851030

To call a feature a Logos 7 feature when it requires Logos Now is simply going to cause ongoing confusion.

Okay ... I'm missing something in the OP I guess. Where is a Logos Now only feature called a Logos 7 feature? I word it that way as Logos Now includes Logos 7 features ...

Ahhh...as usual, you bring up a good point. I would not have thought of it that way. That makes perfect sense.

But the OP's case is still valid (though not as much so with your distinction), as most of us wouldn't come to the realization of this dichotomy as quick as you have. Maybe Logos can make a clearer distinction between the two to eliminate confusion.

Richard Lyall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851070#Comment_851070

[Edited due to misread earlier post - can't delete it seems]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851075#Comment_851075

But would you please help out a very confused reader, Richard? What is misleading i.e. what Logos 7 features aren't in the Logos 7 full-set? And where were Logos Now and Logos 7 features intermingled in Faithlife advertising? I'm still trying to find the tempest to see if it is a real tempest or in a teapot.

Phil Gons (Logos)

Would someone from Logos care to comment?

Richard, did you see my reply to the other thread you started on this exact subject on August 30? Is there something you're looking for here that I didn't answer there? It seems like a repeat of your earlier post, which makes me think you never saw my reply.

Rick Ausdahl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851030#Comment_851030

To call a feature a Logos 7 feature when it requires Logos Now is simply going to cause ongoing confusion.

Okay ... I'm missing something in the OP I guess. Where is a Logos Now only feature called a Logos 7 feature? I word it that way as Logos Now includes Logos 7 features ...

Here are a couple of threads that may help provide a little background. In the first thread below, Phil Gons made a post to which I responded and pointed out the second thread noted below. In addition, as an example of another source of confusion, there have been some videos on the Bible Browser where it was listed as a L7 feature without any reference to it requiring a Logos Now subscription.

From what I'm starting to see though, when listing the new "features" videos, Faithlife is starting to do a better job of identifying each one as being either an "enhanced" L6 feature, a new L7 feature, or a Logos Now only feature. And I think that's one key to avoiding confusion.

Thread One: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/130005/846328.aspx#846328

Thread Two: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/129323.aspx

Richard Lyall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851083#Comment_851083

Phil... Indeed I hadn't picked up the later messages in that thread which do seem to address the same underlying issue, which is really the confusion caused by the choice of package names and what's included.

However although it may be the same issue underneath, the additional concern expressed in the OP here is the apparently misleading claim on the web page indicated from the viewpoint of someone who was not aware of the subtleties of what exactly L7 is as opposed to Logos Now, so it's not a duplicate thread ultimately but they are closely related.

Those who don't think there's any ambiguity may be forgetting that not everyone is aware of these subtleties and might end up feeling confused or misled.

The web page in question should be take a lot more care to avoid appearing to suggest that every new feature listed will be included with the Full Feature Set package.

Phil Gons (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851092#Comment_851092

Phil... Indeed I hadn't picked up the later messages in that thread which do seem to address the same underlying issue, which is really the confusion caused by the choice of package names and what's included.

However although it may be the same issue underneath, the additional concern expressed in the OP here is the apparently misleading claim on the web page indicated from the viewpoint of someone who was not aware of the subtleties of what exactly L7 is as opposed to Logos Now, so it's not a duplicate thread ultimately but they are closely related.

Those who don't think there's any ambiguity may be forgetting that not everyone is aware of these subtleties and might end up feeling confused or misled.

The web page in question should be take a lot more care to avoid appearing to suggest that every new feature listed will be included with the Full Feature Set package.

I acknowledge that there's potential for confusion.

It seems to me that the real point of confusion here is one of timing. We released lots of Logos Now features with 6.x releases, and we advertised Gold and the Logos 6 Feature Crossgrade as the way to get "all the features of Logos 6." But we never had anyone confused (to my knowledge) about why they weren't getting Concordance, Multiview Resources, Media Browser, and all the other features released with Logos Now. I think that's because they were released at different times.

We're about to release the Morph Query Builder tool with 7.1, with other features to follow in 7.2, 7.3, etc. Something tells me we won't have the same issues that seem to have revolved around Bible Browser.

These considerations suggest that the main issue is that Bible Browser was released at the same time as 7.0. If we'd held it for 7.1, the difference between a Logos 7 feature and a Logos Now feature would probably have been clearer. (That's not to deny that some of our communication wasn't always as clear as it could have been around the difference between a Logos 7 and Logos Now feature.)

I do think this problem will go away as we release more features that aren't included in Logos 7 products and people better understand the differences.

GaoLu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851117#Comment_851117

We're about to release the Morph Query Builder tool with 7.1

[Y][Y][Y]

Richard Lyall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851119#Comment_851119

Phil if the web page in the OP had said "all the features of Logos 6" rather than "7" , all doubt would have cleared up instantly, but it doesn't. It says 7 which creates ample cause for ambiguity to the uninitiated. And as you say the timing is probably something to do with the reason for the confusion.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851070#Comment_851070

It's almost predictable when you're going to be chiming in: when there's an OP that criticizes Logos.

if you are really that displeased with Logos, and that miserable in your relationship with them, why not just move on?

Myke I won't be bullied by you to stop providing honest feedback to Faithlife on areas I believe where they can improve as a business. And I most certainly will not be moving on simply because you have chosen to make a bold assumption about my relationship with this company - an incorrect assumption. And I will continue to help out my fellow customers on these forums, including you, where I am able to do so.

In the mean time may God continue to bless you in your service to him.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851140#Comment_851140

Phil if the web page in the OP had said "all the features of Logos 6" rather than "7" , all doubt would have cleared up instantly, but it doesn't. It says 7 which creates ample cause for ambiguity to the uninitiated. And as you say the timing is probably something to do with the reason for the confusion.

Saying "features of Logos 6" would not have been accurate as FFS includes, for example, the Sermon Editor which wasn't available under Logos 6

Richard Lyall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851153#Comment_851153

Ah yes ... so maybe there isn't a concise way to express it in the end - "all the features of Logos 6 + all the new features of Logos 7 except those which are Logos Now only" kind of lacks punch ...

Stephen Terlizzi

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851178#Comment_851178

Ah yes ... so maybe there isn't a concise way to express it in the end - "all the features of Logos 6 + all the new features of Logos 7 except those which are Logos Now only" kind of lacks punch ...

All they needed to do was add a disclaimer as follows: Some cloud-based features require a separate Logos Now subscription. Click here for more details.

Agape,

Steve

Phil Gons (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/851200#Comment_851200

Ah yes ... so maybe there isn't a concise way to express it in the end - "all the features of Logos 6 + all the new features of Logos 7 except those which are Logos Now only" kind of lacks punch ...

All they needed to do was add a disclaimer as follows: Some cloud-based features require a separate Logos Now subscription. Click here for more details.

Agape,

Steve

We'll look into adding a disclaimer.