Logos has overtaken Accordance for good

Eli Evans said:

So, in the spriit of Prov 8:9-10; 10:23; 13:16, I apologize for any conseternation my loggorhea caused. From now on, I'll try to stick to talking about things I know about, which is Logos, Logos, Logos!

Merry Christmas!

A blessed season to you too... while only a ACC user I realize it ruffled feathers based on a perceived slighting... but while I would expect you to have used all Bible software (or someone there at FL, no one should expect you to be an expert at other software).

-Dan

Thanks Pedro, one thing I didn't see in the mobile section was the fact that Accordance's mobile app is self contained this does mean you have less power than Faithlife Apps but also you have constant access to all features that bncluding original language look up. Logos most assuredly has a far more vast selection but Accordance offers more than a few key resources unavailable in the FL. As I think I said earlier in this thread each program has its strengths and weaknesses let each one use what will best serve each one. 

Dan

PS:One more FL thing is a light version for free sort of exists. One can download the free engine be and get Faithlife study bible collection and the Lexham English Bible. And grab the connect the testaments devotional  and have a free study system that although has no original language tie in has a great study bible, very decent modern dictionary, a nice devotional and a solid modern translation. 

Dan Francis said:

one thing I didn't see in the mobile section was the fact that Accordance's mobile app is self contained this does mean you have less power than Faithlife Apps but also you have constant access to all features that bncluding original language look up

This has been a killer issue for me. I'm devoting most of my resources to Accordance now because of this. When I first started out looking at bible software, my primary goal was to find something on my tablet that I could take with me anywhere and be able to do word lookups and be able to pull up commentaries quickly during bible studies. I picked Logos back then because of the huge library, the active forum community, and I believed that support was so requested for offline lookups that it was surely around the corner. Four years later and nearly $40k invested and Simple Offline Lookups is still at the top of User Voice requests and still no where in sight. In fact, it's pretty clear that Faithlife is moving more and more towards a online only version of desktop as well as mobile. This would be fine if we lived in the always connected world they must live in out there in Bellingham. Unfortunately, here in Atlanta, the churches I attend don't have such access, and they are very large churches. Accordance for iOS now fills this need for me and they are working on an Android version which, hopefully, is coming soon.

Dan Francis said:

Accordance offers more than a few key resources unavailable in the FL

This is another place where I don't understand Faithlife's silence on great resources like Carta. Especially when they also have a very poor map (and timeline) implementation compared to Accordance.

Dan Francis said:

each program has its strengths and weaknesses let each one use what will best serve each one. 

[Y] I'm ranting a little bit but I do strongly believe this. I love and respect both companies and they both make great products that help me learn more effectively. It's just hard sometimes when you've invested so much and have to go elsewhere when features and resources that are so obviously wanted get ignored.

Randy W. Sims said:

Accordance for iOS now fills this need for me and they are working on an Android version which, hopefully, is coming soon.

BREAKING NEWS: attendees of SBL/AAR can stop by the booth and see a running demo of Accordance Mobile running on an Android tablet!

-Dan

Bruce Dunning said:

Randy W. Sims said:

This is another place where I don't understand Faithlife's silence on great resources like Carta.

I have often spoken about my desire to have Carta in Logos. Currently I don't own any other Bible software other than Logos but thinking about Carta makes we wonder whether I should give up waiting for Logos to work out a deal with Carta and take the plunge but I really don't want to do this.

I've also been waiting for more/better atlas resources to be available in Logos, but am now considering a separate purchase of one or more Carta resources.  A hard copy is an option, but I'm leaning towards something available in Accordance so even though I have to step outside of Logos, I can do it on my computer without having to carry a hard copy with me.

I would appreciate any input you might have on the various Carta resources--i.e. pros and cons, coverage or lack thereof.  I'm currently looking at the "Sacred Bridge", but don't know how it compares coverage wise with other resources like the Carta Bible Atlas or the Carta Understanding series. 

I have SB and Macmillan (both Carta). I initially thought Macmillan would be a waste. But now I'm glad I have both.

Example: I'm currently reading about the collapse in the late Bronze. And SB and Macmillan represent differing theories and thus both quite useful. Both in-depth discussion ... both detailed maps, but SB nicer.

For Logosians unfamiliar with Carta, 'atlas' sounds like maps with some chit-chat. With Carta, it's sort of Anchor-Yale level discussion, plus detailed maps. 

Denise said:

I have SB and Macmillan (both Carta). I initially thought Macmillan would be a waste. But now I'm glad I have both.

Example: I'm currently reading about the collapse in the late Bronze. And SB and Macmillan represent differing theories and thus both quite useful. Both in-depth discussion ... both detailed maps, but SB nicer.

For Logosians unfamiliar with Carta, 'atlas' sounds like maps with some chit-chat. With Carta, it's sort of Anchor-Yale level discussion, plus detailed maps. 

Thanks, Denise.  Could you expound just a little on how the SB maps are nicer?  Also wondering, do you have hard copies, digital, or a mix?  If any are digital, are they Accordance versions or something else?

If Accordance, what's your opinion on how well they are linked with scripture passages--i.e. how easy does Accordance make it to get from events in scripture passages to maps pertaining to those events?  Also wondering how well the maps are tagged for searches.  I'm leaning towards the Bible Atlas due to price, but would consider the SB if it's easier to get from scripture passages to the appropriate maps or tagged better for searches.

If they're digital but not Accordance resources, what app are they a part of?

I would buy Sacred Bridge.  Just sayin'.

JoshInRI said:

I think it would be very easy for Accordance or even Olive Tree to overtake and surpass Logos.  Just develop a fast easy intuitive menu and simplify basic search capability - combined with lower cost books.

I do hope Logos wins but I do not find it that much of an improvement really.  Many times I abandon the use of Logos and look for something far faster on the regular internet.

7.x should be overhauled, simplified, and tailored for real world use.

I used Olive Tree, and after trying out Logos, I felt that Logos was light years ahead of Olive Tree, and never went back. I don't miss Olive Tree.

I understand that you're not happy with the (speed, ease of use, or) complexity of Logos, but there are many different real world uses for the program, from personal study to sermon prep to academic research.

"Simplifying" the program, and tailoring it to some narrow use, would "cripple" the program and make it less useful for others in general. The more flexible option is to understand how to use the program's tools and features to meet a specific need for that time.

Does it have a steep learning curve? Yes. But it's better for us to learn how to use it, than for the program to be dumbed down. Less features, power, or complexity isn't necessarily better, and there will come a day when you are glad it is as complex and powerful as it is.

Denise said:

Answering specific questions:

- I have Carta on Accordance (all digital). I can't imagine using hardcopy ... too slow and heavy.

- I'm not a good source for Bible > atlas.  I mainly use relative to time (both are tightly bound to time, so it's easy to match up).  Both have detailed side-bar TOC's to quickly move from event to event. So, if I'm watching Neco headed north in Kings, it's easy to find him ... not like Logos where you have to search, etc.

- Don't know how maps are tagged, but the TOC's are far faster.  You can even arrow-key the maps across time quickly.

- I included SB sample and Macmillan sample below. I'd get SB long before Macmillan. It really an 'atlas commentary' ... lots of good info.

Sorry I couldn't answer the Bible > atlas connect, though it's not so critical as is in Logos. Below are Necco's foibles (included some Jehoiakim to show text discussion).

Sacred Bridge:

Macmillan Sample:

Denise, thank you for the samples--they really are helpful.  I definitely like the style of the TSB maps better than the Macmillan Atlas, and from what I've been able to determine so far, it's one of the most highly respected atlas resources available.  On the other hand, I'll probably look a little more at the new Carta Bible Atlas which is now in it's fifth addition and as I understand it, replaced the old Macmillan version.  If that's the case, I wonder if the maps have been spiffed up a bit in it to look more like those in TSB vs. the Macmillan Atlas.  Problem is, I haven't been able to determine that yet.

I'm also going to look into "Carta's New Century Handbook and Atlas of the Bible", which is marketed as a concise version of The Sacred Bridge.  But as with the new Carta Bible Atlas, the problem is finding samples of the content.

Thanks again though.  You've been a great help.  [:)]

PetahChristian said:

7.x should be overhauled, simplified, and tailored for real world use.

I have the impression that 7 represents quite a big overhaul which happened from 6 onwards. I'm using the same laptop with no upgrades and Logos feels faster. Custom default layouts which load from the home screen search make it feel more comfortable and lean than ever. The results I get and the resources which it draws upon are all based on preferences I have developed over years of study - it's really quite a delight to use!

Well, apologies to Logos for so much Carta checking, but if Carta were in Logos!  I suspect Carta has an exclusive with Accordance. 

Rick, you REALLY should check how many pennies are in your piggybank. I agree with Veli ... the value of SC is in the text.

I did try to figure out New Century. Looks like they used SC's maps (all?, most?, many?). And re-wrote the text.  The new text indeed looks like a step between SC and Macmillan, and not too bad. I made copies below: New Century, SC, and Macmillan ... battle of Gideon.

New Century( desktop view):

Sacred Bridge (iPad view; map thumbnail matches New Century)

Macmillan (Carta Bible Atlas; iPad view):

I may pull the trigger on the Carta and Sacred resources, but maybe some time in the future. I've been checking out samples and may go for a trial first. These are great resources to have and I'm just as stupefied as others are that Logos hasn't worked out a deal to bring these resources to their platform. Of course, that doesn't guarantee that the quality will be there, but that's another story.  I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

DAL

None of the new features of Logos 7 have made any real difference to me.  I did upgrade for the books in the package.  I took Logos now only for the discount it gave me.

I would have been much more impressed with more intuitive searching and increased speed.  For me, anything else is fluff.

But I am not the target customers.

JoshInRI said:

Mr. Childs apparently none of us are

I think a massive overhaul and simplification of the interface and gearing it toward beginners and intermediate users (instead of original language scholars) is more in order.

If Logos is too complex or sophisticated, please exchange it for a simpler program that does less. Otherwise, rise to the occasion, educate yourself, and discover what it can do, instead of asking that the developers dumb it down.

JoshInRI said:

Logos developers - God bless them all sincerely - seem to have their head in the clouds and are not thinking revamp, simplify, and improve.

Have you ever worked as a software developer?

You could take some time off from your current studies, design and create a bible study program to do exactly what you want, and the only person that might be truly happy with it is you. Now try to write it so 10, or 100, or 1000 of your fellow bible study participants would be happy with it. Congratulations, you've got a hit on your hands. Enjoy your market share, new career and 5-star reviews.

Sadly, Josh, there will always be one person who gives your amazing program a 1-star review, and complains about how your program is out of touch with anyone's needs, is too complex, etc.

The software developers at Logos do a really great job. It's not easy to release new versions, and add or improve features, every few weeks.

Dan Francis said:

Well apparently tighter integration into cloud and features that are online only seem to be the way FL wants to go but these things are opposite of my wishes, I am not who they are aiming at either I guess..

-Dan

Dan, thank you for your advice and I found the Accordance Lite is very fast, has basic original language ability, completed with Bible outline and a decent commentary. Best of all it is free.  I am tempted to get their PhotoGuide: the only thing comparable on Logos is the "Beitzel Photo Library". But this photo library is only available for Logos Now subscriber, and the data are stored on their server.  I spent a lot of money on Logos, and I cannot really afford to migrate to Accordance except for an occasional purchase: their new graphic packages look gorgeous. For the same price I spent on Logos 7 new engine and dataset that I have not found useful, I could have purchased a beautiful graphic package at Accordance, downloadable completely onto my hard drive.

A few years ago, Accordance used to have a very small commentary selection, and that was why I started with Logos. But now, Logos is losing this advantage. In terms of graphics, Accordance seems to have better media and atlas. In terms of new publications, OliveTree seems to be able to publish them faster. OliveTree pricing and sales are truly attractive: I bought MacArthur Commentary for almost 1/3 of the price of Logos. I wish my MacArthur set is in my Logos library, but I can't justify paying so much more money to acquire it into my Logos library.

I hate having to run three different Bible Softwares on my computer. So I wish Logos can stop me. 

Now, Should I be spending money on Logos Now? or I should save money for Accordance graphical packages? Decision, decision...

Paul, you're right about the media in Accordance. I'll admit Carta is a draw for me. Mainly the text. But the media is my addiction. I clearly remember our pastor sternly warning our congregation about Accordance media. I get every one they produce.

Here, I'll defer to Dan, but my impression is that Logos doesn't accomodate hi-res imagery. At least I've never seen it. Plus no zooming. My world is geology and zooming in to the stone work, writing, and wilting in the baked brick, speaks volumes. I have maybe 200 apps on my iPad (which I doubt) but Accordance kicks everyone else out, when a new media package arrives.

Denise said:

Logos doesn't accomodate hi-res imagery. At least I've never seen it.

The issue I have usually had with all FL imagery is it is super hard to display properly on a laptop. For example on todays homepage there is a Panorama of Jerusalem I click on it and I can zoom in and out but there no way I have discover to get a full screen view with the FL program. Some images come up even worse with a tiny slit for viewing leaving one unable to even use them on a laptop. Now I know the answer is get a big external monitor and problem solved. This is not something I want... I want to be able to use Fl programs effectively on my laptop. I am not asking for the impossible but I come to sad conclusion that to view most images from FL programs i have to jump through hoops and other programs or atleast a printer dialouge. When in my mind the logical thing is double click and picture opens up in it's own uncluttered window. Admittedly maybe i only expect this because that is how it has always worked in Accordance.

-Dan

Well put Joel.... many will want only on program, but a second one is just as handy as a second Bible beyond the one  you regularly use....

-Dan