Another extended full feature set, really?
Comments
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James McAdams said:
I think it's a positive move to make these features available to more people, and I certainly don't object to them charging for their efforts.
No objection to either statement, but if it is a feature, it belongs in the full feature set. If it raises the price a small amount, that would be more acceptable to me. What Faithlife has done instead is taken a feature that ironically shows a price tag of $0.00 and made it where customers have to pay over $100 to access AFTER already buying the "full feature set." That is a very slippery slope. If they release another feature, will it be bundled with other resources and cost an additional $100+ to obtain? The bottom line is it is a free market and Faithlife is free to do what they want. I am grateful Faithlife allows this platform for feedback, even when that feedback is not complementary. I wish them ongoing success as a company, and if others buying the extended feature set helps Faithlife stay in business, their win is my win. I have voiced my concerns and will have to leave it at that.
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Randy W. Sims said:Kiyah said:
There are not that many actual features in the "extended" "feature" set.
I think that's the point. The extended feature set is meant to add resources to the features in order to populate all of Logos guides and tools. The added features are a bonus. Logos 6 did the same thing (Core cross-grade, full feature cross-grade, extended cross-grade) with the same organization and the same goals. This isn't something new. That they threw in a new feature is just a bonus incentive. The Bible Browser is part of Logos Now for version 7. Without this release it would not have trickled down to pay-to-own until possibly version 8. It's a good thing to see Now features trickling down to pay-to-own, and necessary. Whether the resources are worth purchasing in this optional extended upgrade are worth the price is up to each individual, but I don't personally see anything objectionable about it.
I don't think there is anything objectional at all about them selling an extended feature set. I was just stating that it wasn't a good value for me personally, I know some other people have been able to pick it up for much cheaper. I do think it would have been better and less annoying for them to offer customers all of the feature sets up front so that they could compare and put together a combination that worked best for them to get the best value. For example, I would have liked to compare the price for Bronze plus the full feature set (which is what I purchased) with the Bronze plus extended feature set to see what the best bundled value would be. Especially since I get a 30% first purchase discount (which I greatly appreciated) versus the 20% discount for subsequent purchases. Bronze plus the extended feature set at a 30% discount might have been the best value for me. But I'm not upset about it, none of us are forced to buy anything at all, and Logos is not obligated to release all of their products at the same time (as long as they’re not engaging in misleading advertising, which some people on this thread think is the case). I decided at the time I upgraded that Logos 7 Bronze was a good value (which it was).
Sidebar: I really don’t know how anyone can afford any of this stuff without some kind of discount. If you are a student (like me) or you have a job in which you really need a tool this powerful, you most likely can’t afford it. If you have a job that pays you enough to afford it (which I used to have) you probably don’t really need it. Lol [;)] [:)]
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BKMitchell said:
After reading the above
I discovered three red x's on my about page and yet I own a feature set.
Can you please attach a screenshot of your about page and your log file? I'm not actually sure how it's possible to get a red x for the application, so it sounds like there is some kind of bug.
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
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When Logos 7 first came out, I bought the Full Feature Set and several packages. At the time, there were some threads with posts by Logos employees (and even one thread started by a Logos employee) that indicated the Bible Browser was a part of Logos 7. It was not until later that this confusion was cleared up--i.e. that in fact, the Bible Browser was only available in Logos 7 "if" you had a Logos Now membership. That was a big disappointment to me because the browser was one of my main interests.
I'm glad to see it now being offered apart from Logos Now via the Extended Feature Set, but my price for the set is a bit over $170. There's very little in the way of resources in the extended feature set that I'm interested in, and I'm certainly not in the mood or mindset to put out yet an additional $170 and change on top of the cost of all my original L7 purchases of the Full Feature Set and numerous packages, just to get the Bible Browser. Rather disappointed in the whole browser situation, but such is life I guess. Glad though for those who see enough value in the other resources in the extended feature set to make the purchase worth while and get the browser to boot.
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Since the Bible Browser is, in my opinion, the only real feature added by the extended feature set that was not available to purchase before, please allow us who bought the full feature set to buy only this feature to "complete" our current full feature set. That would be great.
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Sarel Slabbert said:
Since the Bible Browser is, in my opinion, the only real feature added by the extended feature set that was not available to purchase before, please allow us who bought the full feature set to buy only this feature to "complete" our current full feature set. That would be great.
That would be awesome, especially at the quoted price! [:P]
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Jan Krohn said:Sarel Slabbert said:
Since the Bible Browser is, in my opinion, the only real feature added by the extended feature set that was not available to purchase before, please allow us who bought the full feature set to buy only this feature to "complete" our current full feature set. That would be great.
That would be awesome, especially at the quoted price!
[^][:D][:)] That would be perfect
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I've had to settle for building my library more incrementally lately, and I did not want to miss out on this, so I put it my cart today. It was $94 and change. Than I added a base package, in my case Gold, as it was the next level up. My eyes nearly popped out of my head to start doing a happy dance. [:D]
Thank you Faithlife!
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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Sarel Slabbert said:Jan Krohn said:Sarel Slabbert said:
Since the Bible Browser is, in my opinion, the only real feature added by the extended feature set that was not available to purchase before, please allow us who bought the full feature set to buy only this feature to "complete" our current full feature set. That would be great.
That would be awesome, especially at the quoted price!
That would be perfectAlas it's like cable tv. You got take the shopping channels if you want ESPN.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
As noted in my previous post, one of the primary L7 features I was interested in was the Bible Browser which was eventually clarified to be available only to Logos Now members, but is now available to non Logos Now members in this new extended feature set. Since the price of the extended feature set is getting reduced for people when they add an L7 package (or packages) to their cart along with the extended feature set, and since the extended feature set wasn't available when I purchased all my L7 products, I called sales to see if the L7 purchases I made could be used to reduce my $170.64 cost listed for the extended feature set. Those L7 purchases consisted of the following.mab said:I've had to settle for building my library more incrementally lately, and I did not want to miss out on this, so I put it my cart today. It was $94 and change. Than I added a base package, in my case Gold, as it was the next level up. My eyes nearly popped out of my head to start doing a happy dance.
Thank you Faithlife!
- Full Feature Set
- Reformed Starter Library
- Anglican Bronze Library
- Methodist and Wesleyan Bronze Library
- Pentecostal and Charismatic Bronze Library
- Standard Silver Library
I was told they could not. Very disappointed. [:^)]
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Logos is now selling the full feature set for the same price as the extended feature set for those who don't own Logos 7, or to existing customers who have not upgraded to Logos 7 (with the full feature set). It appears on the surface, that these customers get the extended feature set at no additional cost. In other words, those of us who upgraded early have to pay more to upgrade to the extended feature set. Can someone please check? I hope I'm wrong. Thank you.
http://www.TrinityExamined.com
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Rick Ausdahl said:
I was told they could not. Very disappointed.
As I recall, it was a one-time additional discount for purchasing a library and feature set together that only applied to the initial base package you bought.
If you had a Logos Now subscription, the additional savings would have paid for the annual cost itself, several times over. I saved an additional 25% ($80) just on the Extended Feature Set alone.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Judging by your photos the prices seem different. Am I missing something?
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Into Grace said:
Logos is now selling the full feature set for the same price as the extended feature set for those who don't own Logos 7, or to existing customers who have not upgraded to Logos 7 (with the full feature set). It appears on the surface, that these customers get the extended feature set at no additional cost. In other words, those of us who upgraded early have to pay more to upgrade to the extended feature set. Can someone please check? I hope I'm wrong. Thank you.
I don't see that; the pricing appears correct.
Pricing is complex, as there are additional discounts (and credits) that come into effect, depending on whether you're a subscriber, academic, making your first L7 bundle purchase, (recently bought L6 before L7 was released,) etc.
If you hadn't bought any L7 product, that you'll get a great discount on any feature set (and the discount will naturally be larger for the extended feature set, since it costs more), but FL isn't giving the extended feature set items away for free to anyone.
As an aside, if you don't subscribe to LN, you'll get 10% off. If you do subscribe to LN, you'll get 36% off. Any savings will generally pay for the annual membership, several times over, in my experience.
Could you have saved more if you hadn't bought early? Perhaps. But you've also had access to L7 tools and features for all that time, while the people who held off, didn't.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Couldn't Logos offer us early adopters of the full feature set the option to buy only the features and not all the resources included in the Extended Feature Set?
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Sarel Slabbert said:
Couldn't Logos offer us early adopters of the full feature set the option to buy only the features and not all the resources included in the Extended Feature Set?
Wouldn't that be similar to asking for early access to specific new features, capabilities, and/or online-only tools, without subscribing to Logos Now?
It probably wouldn't be practical for FL to sell off individual features from the set, as people would only buy one or two features, instead of the set.
I imagine that when L8 comes out, the L8 Full Feature Set will contain a lot of features that people would like to buy today, instead of renting.
Until then, isn't it reasonable that people pay (roughly the same) for the Bible Browser and Discourse features, either by paying $99/year for Logos Now, or by buying the Extended Feature Set?
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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PetahChristian said:Sarel Slabbert said:
Couldn't Logos offer us early adopters of the full feature set the option to buy only the features and not all the resources included in the Extended Feature Set?
Wouldn't that be similar to asking for early access to specific new features, capabilities, and/or online-only tools, without subscribing to Logos Now?
It probably wouldn't be practical for FL to sell off individual features from the set, as people would only buy one or two features, instead of the set.
Perhaps, but the Bible Browser was available when Logos offered the full feature set with Logos 7, except it was only for Logos Now. Now suddenly it is available to buy, but only with an expensive set of books which I have not desire to own at the moment. I would however like to have access to the features. If Bible Browser was only released now it would not have been a problem, since it would then be a new feature.
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Will there be a Verbum Extended Feature Set?
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If this view helps I have no Logos 7 package yet and no features sets. No LNow either. I have many resources and older version packages. I see an increase of about $100 between Full and Extended features sets. They do all go down more when added to my cart but only to where the extended is about $85 more.
I have a ? about the discourse features.(Update I think I answer this for myself. I seem to have the glossary and intro already for some reason).
They list The Lexham Discourse Greek New Testament Dataset & The Lexham Discourse Hebrew Bible Dataset
I watched the video about them. They demo the glossary. That appears to be a separate product. In the listing it shows the glossary for the old testament "The Lexham Discourse Hebrew Bible: Glossary" but I not see the "The Lexham Discourse Greek New Testament: Glossary" listed under glossaries. Is that not included? Will I miss having that or be able to purchase it?
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That would be nice. Most likely the best fit for me. But I'll be surprised if they do that. Thankfully, the sun will rise and life will go on regardless of what Faithlife chooses to do. [:)]Sarel Slabbert said:Couldn't Logos offer us early adopters of the full feature set the option to buy only the features and not all the resources included in the Extended Feature Set?
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FWIW, I really didn't do anything special to get the deal. I put the set into my cart and added the Gold library. Not only did the numbers show a modest discount on the set, but I also got a discount on the library. I'm not sure how everything shook out, but it amounted to the library extension being better than free. I can recall that this sort of thing happened one other time and the details are foggy. But the takeaway is that you won't know unless add the stuff you want into the cart and see your price. My understanding is that you will get a discount with one base package. More base packages may not lower it further.
One other thing. You really can't cherry pick with Logos as you might with print. It will frustrate you endlessly. It's still to your advantage to pick wisely among all the package deals. You'll have some fluff, but you will save enormously in the long run.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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You may have some inexpensive base package, even a starter that may just be a few bucks, that you can combine with the EFS to get noteworthy savings, quite a bit cheaper altogether than the EFS alone.
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What I don't get with this extended feature set is the random volumes of Systematic Theology Included... Why only 3 of 4 of Wiley's Sys Theo? Why only 1 of 3 of Oden's? This perplexes me to no end.
Anyone have the bulletin for biblical research? Is that a good set of journals?
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Mattillo said:
What I don't get with this extended feature set is the random volumes of Systematic Theology Included... Why only 3 of 4 of Wiley's Sys Theo? Why only 1 of 3 of Oden's? This perplexes me to no end.
Anyone have the bulletin for biblical research? Is that a good set of journals?
The volume from the Wiley set that is left out is a one volume summary of his main three volume work. It was done by Wiley and Culbertson.
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Thank you Kenneth but what about Oden's?
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Virgil Buttram said:
Agreed. The inclusion of the Lexham Discourse Bible makes that an attractive product, depending on your dynamic pricing for it.
I found that my dynamic price for https://www.logos.com/product/81254/lexham-discourse-bible was $21.99, which included a special "ownership discount" (probably because I had the old 9 volume NT and 6 volume OT sets). As this was the main thing I was interested in I decided to buy it separately whilst thinking about the extended set. After buying it, https://www.logos.com/product/131520/lexham-discourse-greek-new-testament-datasets was included in my library and https://www.logos.com/product/131521/lexham-discourse-hebrew-old-testament-datasets became available to purchase for 0 price. Previously, these had each been over $100.
What is strange is that this $21.99 purchase made the extended feature set about $30 cheaper. So I guess that, if you qualify for the low price on the Discourse Bible, it's best to buy it first.
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I am lost. The pricing seems completely random. I can't understand how it is lawful to have a price system that is so complicated that a reasonable and intelligent person can't get around with it. And besides, it sounds to me that the pricing is not fair at all (let alone the fact that it seem to be disadvantageous to have bought the product early. So happy I didn't). I might be wrong of course, but it's sincerely the impression I get (and I am VERY puzzled about that). [W]
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Catherine said:
I am lost. The prices seem completely random. I can't understand how it is lawful to have a price system so complicated that a reasonable and intelligent person can't get around with. And besides, it sounds to me that the pricing is not fair at all (let alone to be disadvantaged to have bought early. So happy I didn't do it). I might be wrong of course, but it's the impression I get (and I am VERY puzzled about that)
I like it very much because, as my screen shot above shows, I only pay for what it is new to me even if resources I already own are in the set. If the set price was always the exact same fixed amount for everyone then I would never upgrade a thing since I would be repaying for items contained in that set I already own. Wouldn't want it any other way.
There were some people above who had the wrong impression and realized their error. You will see them correcting themselves shortly after.
Call the number and work with a rep in person so they can better help you.
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Thanks for sharing your opinion. I am still not sold on how the concept is applied and explained. But it's nice to see that some people appreciate it.
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Catherine said:
I am lost. The pricing seems completely random. I can't understand how it is lawful to have a price system that is so complicated that a reasonable and intelligent person can't get around with it. And besides, it sounds to me that the pricing is not fair at all (let alone the fact that it seem to be disadvantageous to have bought the product early. So happy I didn't). I might be wrong of course, but it's sincerely the impression I get (and I am VERY puzzled about that).
I do not follow. Can you explain your situation and why you think this is the case?
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
Catherine said:
I am lost. The pricing seems completely random.
I can understand why someone would think pricing is random, but there is a method to the madness. As has already been mentioned, Faithlife (thankfully) does not make you pay for the same item twice. If you already own 80% of what is included in a package, you only pay for the 20% that is new to you. Additional discounts are available to those who subscribe to Logos Now, buy a library at the same time as a feature set, qualify and have been approved for an academic discount, etc. If you ever wonder how your specific price is calculated, one simple way is to click on the "i" with a circle around it next to the price shown on the product page on the website. If it says "dynamic discount," that is savings for items you already own. There is also (through February 6) a "special introductory discount" for all Logos 7 packages. If you want even more information about pricing, call or email Faithlife and talk to a sales rep. If you want help on the forums, it is best to start a new thread and we will do what we can to help. Although I still strongly disagree with the Bible Browser Tool not being included in the "Full Feature Set," I very thankful Faithlife gives the discounts they do, even if it makes pricing more complex than it otherwise would be.
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I'm not even so worried about the prices as figuring out what on earth I'm buying... I've subscribed to Logos Now. I have looked at 'upgrading' to Logos 7, but I'm suffering from choice paralysis. Still I'm enjoying using the software which appears to be flying in terms of speed recently!
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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John Goodman said:
I'm not even so worried about the prices as figuring out what on earth I'm buying... I've subscribed to Logos Now
Don't worry about what to buy when you have Logos Now. If you buy the Extended Feature Set you still won't own all the features of LN, but you might get some new resources/books (as per the product page "New to you"). Full Feature Set only has a few resources/books. If you want to own features or get some new resources then buy before Monday 6th.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I subscribed to Logos Now when Logos 7 was released but have considered not renewing and buying the Full Feature Set instead.
The FFS today would cost me $121.84. The Extended Feature Set would be $207.56, which, if I understand correctly, would include owning the FFS as well as those features in the EFS. Am I correct?
And the price of each (FFS and EFS) increases tomorrow, right?
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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Bill, I don't think EFS includes FFS. I have FFS and EFS was still a sizable amount. But I don't know. Given the discounting timing, I'd use the 1-800 choice ... pretty hefty amounts. Just my 2 pennies.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
Bill, I don't think EFS includes FFS. I have FFS and EFS was still a sizable amount. But I don't know. Given the discounting timing, I'd use the 1-800 choice ... pretty hefty amounts. Just my 2 pennies.
On the FFS product page it says that the FFS is included in the EFS: https://www.logos.com/product/120029/logos-7-full-feature-set
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Denise said:
Bill, I don't think EFS includes FFS. I have FFS and EFS was still a sizable amount. But I don't know. Given the discounting timing, I'd use the 1-800 choice ... pretty hefty amounts. Just my 2 pennies.
Thanks, Denise. If I put the FFS in my cart, I get a price of a price of $121.84 with the note "Special Logos 7 savings for Logos Now members."
If I then add the EFS to the cart, the FFS is replaced with the EFS, the price is increased to $207.56, and the note "Special Logos 7 savings for Logos Now members" remains.
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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Jan Krohn said:
On the FFS product page it says that the FFS is included in the EFS: https://www.logos.com/product/120029/logos-7-full-feature-set
Aha. Thanks, Jan. That confirms, it seems, what my cart seemed to be saying.
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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Am I correct in assuming that, as a Logos Now subscriber, there is little reason to buy the extended feature set other than as a hedge against not being able to continue to subscribe down the road?
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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That's how it seems to me unless there are resources included with it that you'd like to have and make the price of the EFS worth while.Bill Moore said:Am I correct in assuming that, as a Logos Now subscriber, there is little reason to buy the extended feature set other than as a hedge against not being able to continue to subscribe down the road?
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Thanks, Rick. I was going to purchase the full feature set and not renew my Logos Now subscription later this year, and then I saw this extended feature set and almost bought it. I don't see enough useful-to-me resources to justify the price.
You can spend a lot of money trying to cover all the what-ifs.
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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I do enjoy the ability to download the free book of the month
[:)]
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Given all the confusion in the thread over pricing, I thought maybe a review of how I decide to, or not, buy a package in Logos might be useful.
1. I change to the "new to you" view.
2. Copy what's in this view to a spreadsheet. I create a line in the spreadsheet just below the list.
3. Search for each resource in acrchive.net and books.google to see if there is a public domain full text version of the work. Each of these I move below the line; the tagging available in Logos really isn't worth the money charged for it. I can search these works for free, and even download pdf versions to read and/or search en masse.
4. Examine the remaining titles above the line. Any title I would not use for future research or reading goes below the line, as well. I don't consider products I'm never going to use to part of the "value" in the value proposition in Logos. If they're just going to bump my search result from 10 pages to 11, with no appreciable increase in actual information, then they are actually wasting my time, rather than adding value. I am pretty strict in this area, BTW -- I am very careful not to buy things I do not think I will use in the future.
5. For the products remaining above the line, I rate each one, using a .9 for "would be something I would use in research (not reading!)," 1 for "would read this, even if I wouldn't find searching it all that useful," and 2/3/4/etc. for "might be useful, or nice to have."
6. I divide the average rating (above) into the Logos cost. This is my final "value" in Logos format.
7. I go to another seller of electronic books and look each one up. I often check the original publisher's site, as well, etc., as there are often places to get books in PDF format at a lower cost.
8. I put the price of each item above the line next to the item itself.
9. I sum the costs of the books "off Logos." This is my total "outside cost."
If this outside cost is less than the calculated value in Logos, I do not buy the package in Logos.
I have found developing a process like this helps me ignore the "sale, super sale, no really on sale, really really really on sale," mentality of Logos sales, and makes me focus on what I would really use, and in what format it would be the most useful. It gets me out of thinking "can I build a really big library," and makes me focus on "can I build a useful library." I've not weighted heavily in favor of Logos for search and tools at this point, because I find Logos a mediocre piece of software in its current form -- Faithlife does not even bother trying to integrate with other software packages beyond a very minimal level; the search tools are fair, but not stellar; Faithlife doesn't respect my privacy as a user; and the biblo information is wrong often enough to force me to rebuild all the information taken out of Logos as a ref by hand anyway.
If Faithlife ever starts paying attention to users, the value of having a resource in Logos might increase; in this case, I could simply add a multiplier to the final value above to say "this is worth more just because it is in Logos," or I could decrease the .9 to .8, or something lower. Right now, there isn't any additional value "within Logos" or "outside Logos" I can see, other than the guides and tools, so actual research works get a 10% boost for being in Logos (effectively, I'm willing to pay 10% more for them inside Logos because they integrate with the tools).
Using something like this might help folks think harder about what they are buying and why, and to ignore the Faithlife marketing fluff (which I often consider borderline unethical, particularly the pricing system designed to push you into calling, where they can again push you into buying things you don't really need). Don't try to figure the pricing out. Just think about what you might use, and what you might not. If the resources you would use are not public domain, and are worth the price, then buy it. If they are not, then don't.
Russ
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