When did "Reverend" come into use?

JoshInRI
JoshInRI Member Posts: 1,942 ✭✭✭
edited November 2024 in English Forum

I know some use Pastor so and so...but when did "Reverend" come into play?

Can anyone use Logos to provide an answer please.  Thanks.

Respectfully,

Joshua in Rhode Island
(where not many would be revered or even respected I suspect..rocky ground here.)

Comments

  • DAL
    DAL Member Posts: 10,865 ✭✭✭

    When men tried to be like God they started using reverend! Others can pitch in with the using Logos part :)

    DAL

  • Dan Francis
    Dan Francis Member Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭

    Reverend, a title prefixed by courtesy to the name of any clergyman, though “clerk” (clericus) is the legal and strictly proper description of clergymen, and is, in official documents, placed after (as “Reverend” is before) their names.

    In the Church of England and the Protestant Episcopal and Roman Catholic churches the title is given to ecclesiastics of the second and third orders, the bishops being styled “right reverend.” In some churches ordained abbesses and prioresses are called “reverend mothers.”

     John M’Clintock and James Strong, “Reverend,” Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature (New York: Harper & Brothers, Publishers, 1894), 1075.

    Reverend (Lat. reverendus, ‘worthy of being revered’). An epithet of respect applied to the clergy since the 15th cent. Since the 17th cent. it has been used as a title prefixed to their names in correspondence. Archbishops and the Bp. of Meath (as the ‘Premier Bp. of Ireland’) are styled ‘Most Reverend’, other bishops ‘Right Reverend’, and deans ‘Very Reverend’. Abbesses, prioresses, and other nuns who have the title of ‘Mother’, are also styled ‘Reverend’ (or sometimes ‘Very Reverend’ or ‘Right Reverend’). The *Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland is ‘Right Reverend’. *Carthusian priests are an exception, all except the prior-general being styled not ‘Reverend’ but ‘Venerable’. The legal right of Nonconformists to the title was established by the ‘Keat Case’ in 1876, when a faculty was ordered for the erection of a tombstone on which a *Wesleyan minister was styled ‘Reverend’, the incumbent having previously refused to allow it to be set up.

    cent. century.

    cent. century.

    Bp. Bishop.

    Bp. Bishop.

     F. L. Cross and Elizabeth A. Livingstone, eds., The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (Oxford;  New York: Oxford University Press, 2005), 1403.

  • Gordon Jones
    Gordon Jones Member Posts: 743 ✭✭

    reverend, the ordinary English prefix of written address to the names of ministers of most Christian denominations. In the 15th century it was used as a general term of respectful address, but it has been habitually used as a title prefixed to the names of ordained clergymen since the 17th century. In the Church of England, prefects apostolic who are not in episcopal orders (e.g., deans, provosts, cathedral canons, rectors of seminaries and colleges, and priors and prioresses) are addressed as “very reverend.” Bishops, abbots, abbesses, and vicars-general are addressed as “right reverend,” and archbishops and (in Roman Catholicism) cardinals are addressed as “most reverend.” The moderator of the Church of Scotland is also styled “right reverend.” Carthusians use the title “reverend” only for their prior-general; all other Carthusian priests are styled “venerable father.” While, strictly speaking, the term is an adjective to be followed by “Doctor” or “Mister,” its common usage has made it a noun.

     Encyclopædia Britannica, Encyclopedia Britannica (Chicago, IL: Encyclopædia Britannica, 2016).

  • Ezra Miller
    Ezra Miller Member Posts: 71 ✭✭

    I just heard this listening to Chuck Smith the other day at work.  It's on a podcast, I think it's the C2000 series, somewhere in the Psalms.  I can't remember how he got on the topic either, but he said there was nothing to revere about the name "Chuck Smith".  Ironic considering how many folks were at the CC CM when he was there.

  • David Thomas
    David Thomas Member Posts: 3,272 ✭✭✭

    I guess I need to repent. For decades I have been under the impression that for those in congregational polities that it was used not as TITLE, but an ADJECTIVE to describe one who reveres God and has been set apart (ordained). I only use the term when signing Marriage Licenses and certificates (Baptism, membership, ordination, etc.) and NEVER want to communicate the expectation that DAL reads into the term (2nd usage).

    see the third usage

    reverend


    [rev-er-uh nd, rev-ruh nd] /ˈrɛv ər ənd, ˈrɛv rənd/ 



    Spell Syllables





    adjective
    1.
    (initial capital letter) (used as a title of respect applied or prefixed to the name of a member of the clergy or a religious order):
    Reverend Timothy Cranshaw; Reverend Mother.



    2.
    worthy to be revered; entitled to reverence.


    3.
    pertaining to or characteristic of the clergy.

    noun
    4.
    Informal. a member of the clergy.


    Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,460 ✭✭✭✭

    I think much has to do with traditions.

    I'm to the right of DAL ... 'reverend' is inconceivable and even role tiles are artificial (eg pastor, father, etc). I ended up along the lines of Didache ... beware those who want to park and ask for money. This isn't to suggest I'm right. Only the dead know for sure.  But rejecting the titles and roles sounds disrespectful to most traditions. Egotistical, etc.

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • EastTN
    EastTN Member Posts: 1,518 ✭✭✭

    Denise said:

    I think much has to do with traditions.

    I'm to the right of DAL ... 'reverend' is inconceivable and even role tiles are artificial (eg pastor, father, etc). I ended up along the lines of Didache ... beware those who want to park and ask for money. This isn't to suggest I'm right. Only the dead know for sure.  But rejecting the titles and roles sounds disrespectful to most traditions. Egotistical, etc.

    I think you're right about our use of titles being driven by tradition. I find it instructive that the New Testament spoke of the functions people performed - elder, deacon, pastor, bishop, evangelist, prophet, teacher - without adding any honorifics. This suggests the focus should be on how we can serve the church, rather than on personal status .

  • JoshInRI
    JoshInRI Member Posts: 1,942 ✭✭✭

    Once again I am humbled and blessed by your courteous wise replies.

    Thanks everyone.

  • DAL
    DAL Member Posts: 10,865 ✭✭✭

    Psalm 111:9 contains the word "Reverend" and it applies it to God.   Another synonym is the word "awesome."  According to some dictionaries the correct way  of using Reverend is by adding the definite article "The;"  hence "The Reverend John Doe."  But if the people that use this word as a title are interested in titles, then why not use the synonym also and call themselves "The awesome John Doe."  Well the answer I got once is that they don't want to sound stupid.  So that should tell you where their hearts are in regards to using titles just to be acknowledged by men. 

    My extra two cents!

    Blessings!

    DAL

    Ps.  By the way recently I met some guy that wanted to be called "The senior pastor" and his wife had the audacity to be telling the ladies that she wanted to be called "the first lady."  And here I was thinking I had heard it all!!! 😂

  • David Thomas
    David Thomas Member Posts: 3,272 ✭✭✭

    DAL said:

    Psalm 111:9 contains the word "Reverend" and it applies it to God.  

    I had to do a Logos search on this word to find out how many translations use this gloss. I only found it in the ASV, AV, KJV, NKJV family of translations that I own. Interested to find it also in the paraphrase "The Message" in Matthew 23:7.

    The translation ring in Bible Word Study for the Hebrew word in KJV reveals some other translations that few pastors would want associated with their character - not a whole lot of pastors want to be introduced as "the terrible Dave Thomas" or "the dreadful Dave Thomas"

    Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).

  • DAL
    DAL Member Posts: 10,865 ✭✭✭

    DAL said:

    Psalm 111:9 contains the word "Reverend" and it applies it to God.  

    I had to do a Logos search on this word to find out how many translations use this gloss. I only found it in the ASV, AV, KJV, NKJV family of translations that I own. Interested to find it also in the paraphrase "The Message" in Matthew 23:7.

    The translation ring in Bible Word Study for the Hebrew word in KJV reveals some other translations that few pastors would want associated with their character - not a whole lot of pastors want to be introduced as "the terrible Dave Thomas" or "the dreadful Dave Thomas"

    Thank You!

    DAL

  • Gordon Jones
    Gordon Jones Member Posts: 743 ✭✭

    My understanding is that Reverend is a style rather than a title, the latter being conferred by an official institution and the former either a style of courtesy when used by others or self-styled when applied to oneself.

    In the US, doctors are Doctors because their degree confers upon them the title of Medical Doctor (M.D.). In the UK, however, medical doctors graduate either with the title of Bachelor or, more commonly here in Scotland, Master. Yet everyone in the UK calls them Doctor because that is the traditional style. It is a courtesy title which acknowledges their expertise in a particular field.

    As for Reverend, which I am happy to use of clergy/pastors in the same way I am happy to use the days of the week without conferring praise on Norse or Roman deities, I had assumed that the ending "-end" came from a (North?) Germanic root (cf. -ing) indicating that Reverend was someone who worships (God) and leads others in that worship. It seems I may have been incorrect and that it was, like doctors in the UK, more of a courtesy. It would be interesting to see the earliest examples of its usage.

    Blessings on you all.

  • Rich DeRuiter
    Rich DeRuiter MVP Posts: 6,729

    When I was a child (several eons ago), the man in front (and he was always male then), was invariably called Reverend [last name]. Somewhere during my lifetime that changed to Pastor [first name].

    I'm curious about both trends: the one you are pursuing, and the change to the currently common title of respect.

     Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

  • PetahChristian
    PetahChristian Member Posts: 4,635 ✭✭✭

    DAL said:

    Psalm 111:9 contains the word "Reverend" and it applies it to God.  

    The translation ring in Bible Word Study for the Hebrew word in KJV reveals some other translations that few pastors would want associated with their character - not a whole lot of pastors want to be introduced as "the terrible Dave Thomas" or "the dreadful Dave Thomas"

    Also Psalm 99:3 "thy great and terrible name; for it is holy." Daniel 9:4 "the great and dreadful God." Nehemiah 1:5 "the great and terrible God."

    Who is like God?

    Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

  • DAL
    DAL Member Posts: 10,865 ✭✭✭

    DAL said:

    Psalm 111:9 contains the word "Reverend" and it applies it to God.  

    The translation ring in Bible Word Study for the Hebrew word in KJV reveals some other translations that few pastors would want associated with their character - not a whole lot of pastors want to be introduced as "the terrible Dave Thomas" or "the dreadful Dave Thomas"

    Also Psalm 99:3 "thy great and terrible name; for it is holy." Daniel 9:4 "the great and dreadful God." Nehemiah 1:5 "the great and terrible God."

    Who is like God?

    Youth ministers with a PhD will soon start calling themselves Doctor Dread to sound cool LOL 😂 

  • PetahChristian
    PetahChristian Member Posts: 4,635 ✭✭✭

    That's the thing about God. He doesn't have to come across as cool or hip or anything.

    We can humble ourselves and exalt Him, or He can humble us.

    Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

  • Ezra Miller
    Ezra Miller Member Posts: 71 ✭✭

    For my experiences as a child, the pastor always was scary to me.  Now that I'm older, and have experienced life a bit, titles don't scare me.  I'm not afraid to question what a pastor says, in a respectful way, not just "Hey idiot! What are you talking about?" from the pew.  One thing I see with titles is a lot of guys who want to be like Benny Hinn or whomever else that makes gobs of money through scams use the term or title "Reverend". That's why I stay away from folks that have that title.  I usually will try to find what they are wanting--to share the love of Christ or to fill their pockets.

  • Jan Krohn
    Jan Krohn Member Posts: 3,879 ✭✭✭

    From Wikipedia:

    It is the gerundive or future passive participle of the verb revereri ("to respect; to revere"), meaning "[one who is] to be revered/must be respected".

    From what I remember about my Latin classes, there's no way to give this an "active" meaning (the one who reveres). The one who reveres would be something like "Reverens", not "Referend".

    I have to agree with DAL here...

  • EastTN
    EastTN Member Posts: 1,518 ✭✭✭

    Josh Hunt said:

    I prefer just to be called by my first name. 

    [:)]

  • Alasdair Baxter
    Alasdair Baxter Member Posts: 4 ✭✭

    Llcentiates of the Church of Scotland (and presumably of other Presbyterian churches) are entitled to be designated "Reverend" even though they are not (yet) ordained.

  • Alasdair Baxter
    Alasdair Baxter Member Posts: 4 ✭✭

    "Doctor" is not a legally protected title unlike "Nurse" so that anyone can call themselves "Doctor" although they may not hold themselves out to be medically qualified. One of the most famous Doctors in history, Doctor Samuel Johnston, the lexicographer only had an honorary doctorate. Bearing in mind that the word comes from the Latin "docere" meaning to teach, then, surely it should be teachers and not medical practitioners who should enjoy the title.

  • Alasdair Baxter
    Alasdair Baxter Member Posts: 4 ✭✭

    Please, where can I find details of the Keat Case 1876?

  • Dan Francis
    Dan Francis Member Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭

    No reference to it beyond the mention in the mention in the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church even an internet search turned up very little on it.

    -dan

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,128

    The answer varies by place, date, and denomination. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastical_titles_and_styles for a broader set of options. Note that Reverend is a style not a title ... a distinction I just became aware of.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Bruce Roth
    Bruce Roth Member Posts: 328 ✭✭

    You can use the Google Books Ngram Viewer to see usage of words over time in Google Books.  I think they start their tracking at 1800.  This is the link for "reverend" and "Reverend".  Has some limitations. 

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Reverend%2C+reverend&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CReverend%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Creverend%3B%2Cc0

    You can see a trend here. 

  • GaoLu
    GaoLu Member Posts: 3,524 ✭✭✭

    I probably shouldn't wonder about this but do anyway, and I can't yet think of a Logos search to find it; but what if a congregation has The Very/Most/Right Reverend female Reverend?  What is the official title then?

    This link indicates that the head of some Anglican Communions would have someone called "The Reverend Mother."   Methodists would add "Her Reverence" to the list.

    In my opinion, my wife would probably come close to qualifying, as would my mom and daughters--for the title at least.  I suspect that around Asia there are some church women who would cabbage on to such terms in a heartbeat if they once discovered them.

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,460 ✭✭✭✭

    Reverend, a title prefixed by courtesy to the name of any clergyman, though “clerk” (clericus) is the legal and strictly proper description of clergymen, and is, in official documents, placed after (as “Reverend” is before) their names. ...

    I get the feeling 'clergy' is becoming the gotcha for mandated reporting.

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,128

    GaoLu said:

    but what if a congregation has The Very/Most/Right Reverend female Reverend?  What is the official title then?

    My (Lutheran) daughter-in-law is either Rev. or Pastor ....

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Alasdair Baxter
    Alasdair Baxter Member Posts: 4 ✭✭

    It is actually the Keet case. Keet v Smith and you can find all the details at <www. bailii.org> which gives details of loads of legal cases.