Logos Staff: A Story to Give you something to think about
Two days ago I was at church having a meeting with two IT guys. They bought a new sound board, and while I'm not a sound techie person, I need to know how to use it on the most basic level since I use the computer, three screens, speakers, and a couple of microphones for my class.
Anyway, I was explaining to them something that I was trying to do through PowerPoint and I wanted to know if it was something I would be able to do through my ipad as I walk around my class and make annotations on the screen from anywhere in the room. They said yes but...blah blah blah...it would be better if you did it through ProPresenter because ...blah blah blah. They then said that our church is really giving a push to use ProPresenter but that the challenge is the learning curve. Off the top of my head I said, "Have you ever used Logos Bible Software?" They both said yes. I asked, "Is it as difficult to learn as that?" and without skipping a beat, they both commented, "Absolutely not! That software is so difficult I only use it to read some resources and that's it."
Okay, so I know I've spoken about this before and perhaps you're sick of hearing me say this, but when you've got two IT guys make a comment like that, you have GOT to do something to make your software more user friendly. Since it is BIBLE SOFTWARE, then just like the Bible, I'm assuming you want to make it accessible and usable for all Christians.
After my conversation with the IT guys, I realized that my first "go to" response was to contrast ProPresenter's software learning curve with Logos' learning curve. I feel like I've come far, thanks to help from the message boards and the tons of money I've spent on live classes and videos courses made available through Logos and other third parties. It just saddens me that most people won't have/don't have the time nor resources for that, and therefore Logos' reputation has become one where you need tons of both to use it.
I know that you have been working hard at dropping the prices on introductory materials and giving little videos to teach how to use various parts of the software, and I commend that. But I'm rallying again for the little guy. Great resources like Logos should not be for the spiritual elite, but like Scripture, for the common man who chooses to open it and read it.
Just my .02 for the month.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
Comments
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I agree with you Cynthia, but it's more than just Logos. Our whole society and culture, worldwide, is just too busy and trying to do too many things. I had a long career with IBM and know quite a bit about hardware, software, training, budgeting, teaching, etc. I thought when I retired, I'd have plenty of time to learn all this stuff and use it. I find that all my time is spent volunteering and helping others. I need to learn how to budget my time and juggle my priorities. I also need someone to keep me on track that I'm accountable to. It was easier when I was working. I've started many of the Logos courses, but have gotten sidetracked after just a day or two. I need to retire from my retirement volunteering activities. My age isn't helping, either.
And yes, Logos could and should be much easier to use. There is just way too much stuff on the homepage and it's not intuitive. Too many categories, windows, menus, submenus, and names I don't understand. Add my 1c to the pot.
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I agree also! One thing, though, I’m not a power user, but learned enough to carry me through my studies just by playing with the software and watching mini videos made by FL. I’m still debating whether to sign up for MP’s all access subscription to learn more, but I feel I’m ok with what I know. However, I know Bob has said in the past that even Microsoft Word, Excell, etc. hires third party companies to help Microsoft learn to use their own software. My take on it is this, “It doesn’t have to be the same with Logos.” I think something different should be done, because, as Cynthia mentioned, it should be accessible to the common people, not just the elite. It’s a Bible study tool not some huge corporation making money machine. Yes, some are paid for full time ministry, but many of us are not because we are bi-vocational ministers or some are part time ministers that support themselves because the church can’t afford to help. So, a big yes to making learning Logos Bible Software more accessible for everyone.
I have spoken! 👍😁👌
DAL
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Hi, Cynthia,
My name is Adam, and I'm the product manager for the Logos desktop app. We haven't met, but I've long since come to really appreciate your voice in the forums. Thank you for so diligently advocating for the everyday user. I for one am definitely not sick of hearing this chorus from you. [:D]
Cynthia in Florida said:I asked, "Is [ProPresenter] as difficult to learn as [Logos]?"
Well, no, ProPresenter is easier. But so is Proclaim; presentation software is a simpler tool for a simpler task.
But I realize that's beside the point. Logos is incredibly complex program, and I agree we could do a lot more to guide the average user through their study. We already have some ideas on how to improve this, but I would love to hear your suggestions.
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Adam
You now have Logos Fundamentals. It seems wise to channel efforts into making this package a user friendly package...
If new users can learn Logos Fundamentals and not be overwhelmed by all the bells and whistles, then they would be willing to put their feet deeper into more advanced features. This would be my suggestion.
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Adam Borries (Faithlife) said:
I agree we could do a lot more to guide the average user through their study. We already have some ideas on how to improve this, but I would love to hear your suggestions.
The issues I run into most frequently:
- People used to working only with a Study Bible who need a quick start layout with a study Bible and information panel striped down to Bible dictionary/Bible handbook level information
- People get frustrated because they don't understand what they are looking at. A mouse-over or pointer type way to see (a) the definition of the data they are looking at and (b) where that data comes from [or would come from when there is no data]
- Because it is difficult to create reading plans, standard reading plans such as the annual ISSL (International Standard Sunday-School Lessons) - see Standard Publishing, David Cook & Abingdon in Logos - should be provided in "lectionary" format.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Adam Borries (Faithlife) said:
Hi, Cynthia,
My name is Adam, and I'm the product manager for the Logos desktop app. We haven't met, but I've long since come to really appreciate your voice in the forums. Thank you for so diligently advocating for the everyday user. I for one am definitely not sick of hearing this chorus from you.
... but I would love to hear your suggestions.
Hello Adam: Thank you so much for your response and kind words. I do have some thoughts.
You know how Wordpress has a wordpress.com and a wordpress.org site? Basically, you can use wordpress.com for free and before you know it, you have a blog set up. It's easy to use and I don't need to know any code or fix any errors. It's all done through them. Mind you, I have limited functionality, but I have a pretty decent blog set up in a relatively short time.
Wordpress.org is an entirely different story. With that, depending on how much I want to do, I need some type of knowledge for setting up a blog from scratch. I need to know, at the very least, the basics of codes and errors, etc. Further, I can choose to start from blank or purchase a template and build from there. The more functionality I want, the more "bells and whistles I purchase." Year ago, I started with a free wordpress.com account. Now, I have a wordpress.org account, and I add functionality at my own pace, when I'm ready and want to spend the money.
I kinda think Logos needs something like that. I know that Logos "doesn't sell the program engine" but sells books. However, lately, all the purchasable (is that even a word?) functionality add-ins are designed and appealing because they make Logos EASIER, leaving individuals without them struggling to use Logos. I think Logos needs to make a few "level program packages NOT BASED ON BOOKS alone but based on functions that come with those resources. For instance, at the basic level, if you create a package that has really great standard resources everyone needs, in a base program that is easy to use, without all the bells and whistles, at a great price, I think that's the "wordpress.com" hook. When I first started REALLY using Logos, I watched Mark's Logos 4 videos, and the best thing I learned from him that made Logos usable for me immediately was layouts. He taught me how to build my own, which took a really long time. However, if Logos included things like layouts, reading plans, etc., in user friend screens with a link to videos that explain how to use them, that would be like Mark sitting right there next to you! Then, offer enticing additional functionality upgrade modules THAT COME WITH VIDEO LINKS embedded somehow next to the function key or whatever, so people don't have to look too far for help. My son's online high school course came with something like that, so certainly you all can do that too.
Anyway, that's what comes to the top of my mind, but trust me, I have other ideas...I just don't want to sound too pushy! LOL.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Cynthia, perhaps Logos training, helps, and tips could be more, what's the word I'm looking for? Inductive?[;)]
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Come on, sound pushy. I'd like to hear some of your other ideas.Cynthia in Florida said:I have other ideas...I just don't want to sound too pushy!
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dale E Heath said:
Cynthia, perhaps Logos training, helps, and tips could be more, what's the word I'm looking for? Inductive?
Dale, thanks for the chuckle. I thought my wordpress.com and wordpress.org masked my inductive partiality.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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I agree. Logos is too complex for newbie users. I know that some software (like Wondershare Video Editor, which I use) comes with a startup option to choose whether you want to start it in "Easy Mode" or "Full Feature Mode" or some such. Logos could do something like that. Provide a stripped-down bare-bones "Easy Mode" with just the bare minimum of features and menu options to get people started, and let them graduate to "Full Feature Mode" once they're more comfortable with it. It could be an option in the Login screen, set to Easy Mode by default.
In Wondershare, Easy Mode is a much simpler UI with a wizard-like approach that steps people through what they need to do to use it.
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Good idea Rosie
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thanks Cynthia, for voicing out some of my thoughts.
I struggle most with the search functions. It's just cryptic. The B company nailed it.
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Adam Borries (Faithlife) said:
Thank you for so diligently advocating for the everyday user. I for one am definitely not sick of hearing this chorus from you.
You may well be sick of my chorus though...
New to Logos what do you want to do?
Read the resources that you have just invested in!
What do you find?
No workable reading plans for most resources other than bibles. It was my biggest disappointment on starting to use the software and remains my biggest frustration over the years.
Working Minister etc.
What do you want to do?
Prepare sermons!
Lectionary resources and integration pretty poor.
My second disappointment.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Mark said:
Adam
You now have Logos Fundamentals. It seems wise to channel efforts into making this package a user friendly package...
If new users can learn Logos Fundamentals and not be overwhelmed by all the bells and whistles, then they would be willing to put their feet deeper into more advanced features. This would be my suggestion.
Totally agree. A great move by Logos on the Fundamentals but I'm also wondering, what about making how-to resources cheaper? I'm in Australia so certainly can't make an MP Seminar & a Camp 1 & 2 Video Collection is WAY out of reach price wise at $400US & yes there are manuals & so forth that are cheaper but it's money that could be spent on book resources to fill our libraries maybe? Yes, I am aware of the free videos & training material that appear in the blogs & value those highly, I just think they only scratch the very deep surface
I want to use Logos in all its glory but without solid instruction, I feel like a small fish in a deep pond & know I'm missing out on some amazing features partly through my own ignorance I guess. I love logos though & thank everyone on the team for the hard work they do
We just bought a new car 7 months ago & the instruction manual was free. Not as complex as Logos of course plus I already knew how to drive, but knowing how to turn the heater on in winter has made huge benefits [:P]
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Rosie Perera said:
I agree. Logos is too complex for newbie users. I know that some software (like Wondershare Video Editor, which I use) comes with a startup option to choose whether you want to start it in "Easy Mode" or "Full Feature Mode" or some such. Logos could do something like that. Provide a stripped-down bare-bones "Easy Mode" with just the bare minimum of features and menu options to get people started, and let them graduate to "Full Feature Mode" once they're more comfortable with it. It could be an option in the Login screen, set to Easy Mode by default.
In Wondershare, Easy Mode is a much simpler UI with a wizard-like approach that steps people through what they need to do to use it.
Rosie! I haven’t been here in a while so it was a wonderful surprise to see you!
Your post is exactly what I was talking about. Easy mode would be “wordpress.com” and full feature mode would be “wordpress.org” in my analogy. Then, in the full feature mode, they could either offer add on features like they do now, or they could offer the full feature at a lump price or whatever. Also, I think it’s important that in easy mode and in full feature mode, support is available as a hotkey. In other words, I shouldn’t have to go hunting for support on a function. You can’t “google“ something that you’re not even sure what it’s called. They could even make an option “turn on/off tips” like I’ve seeen in other programs so that the user can grow into the program.
I recognize that I’m talking from a perspective where I have no idea whatsoever what it takes to make some of these options available. However, the great minds at Faithlife have proven they have the ability to create an incredibly powerful program. and so I have got to think that the elves who work so hard to make the magic happen “under the hood” can figure out a way to simplify it enough so that the average user can make the magic work on the screen.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Adam said:
what about making how-to resources cheaper?
More resources do need to be employed at creating "How to" material. Different members of the Logos family travel at different speeds, some needing very detailed material whereas others flourish on much briefer material. The material needs to be easily accessible through a help menu system (quality fuzzy search?). Have past three score and ten I can sympathise more with my wife because I forget things more readily. I would love to be able just to click on a help menu and be able to remind myself of something I have not used for some time - for instance in creating a PB (although I have created hundreds)!
Yes I can get that from the Wiki pages but I need to know how to access them to be able to use them.
Creating clear simple instructions is a gift both spiritually and professionally. The materials need a panel of slow learners to test materials. Almost be definition these would have to be non-staff members.There are plenty of examples for simple instructions for (say) MSWord tasks on the internet because MS dont provide the material. We do not have the number of users to provide that internet help system.
IF we had an on-going help menu system being created, virtually any and every question on the Forums could/should result in a new easily accessible entry on the help system for future users - possibly even based on the answers given by other users!
We need both a large number of answers prepared and an easy way to access them. Possibly produce a small number of questions and then build the help system and test, test, test. This should be done before creating too many answers to ensure the tow sides key into each other.
I like the idea of different views of Logos. Photoshop Elements has Beginner, Guided and Expert. accessed at a click of a button. Where Photoshop falls down is their help system. Although I work in Expert mode I don't find that their help system really helps me.
We all love Logos and want to be able to boast more about it and encourage everyone interested in the bible to be able to use it. My wife occasionally makes constructive comments on my attire, not because she hates me but because she wants to be proud of me.0 -
John B!
Fabulous!!!!
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Lee said:
Thanks Cynthia, for voicing out some of my thoughts.
I struggle most with the search functions. It's just cryptic. The B company nailed it.
Lee: You and me both! It is very frustrating...and as you said, cryptic. Of all my frustrations in learning Logos, this is at the top of the list.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Hey! Maybe Cortana's distant relative could help ...
[;)]Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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Make this resource free:
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Josh said:
Make this resource free:
I was going to say that this is not feasible as MP would lose income to buy his daily crust. However, it could be cheaper for Logos to buy the product from MP and distribute for free than create their own version.
Me too. I found the "Verbum Advanced Search Training" useful but it is the basics that need to be covered first.Cynthia in Florida said:Lee said:Thanks Cynthia, for voicing out some of my thoughts.
I struggle most with the search functions. It's just cryptic. The B company nailed it.
Lee: You and me both! It is very frustrating...and as you said, cryptic. Of all my frustrations in learning Logos, this is at the top of the list.
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JohnB said:
Me too. I found the "Verbum Advanced Search Training" useful but it is the basics that need to be covered first.
Search requires training because it is too complex. You have to learn and become a power user to search the way the developers expect you to search, rather than the experience being redesigned to be more natural, intuitive, and friendly, which would require far less training.
I've seen some "powerful, amazing" searches that the program can do, but I'd never have figured out how to accomplish anything close to that on my own. Honestly, search is intimidating, with its combination of operators and special characters and parameters, as well as nuances which aren't obvious.
Even taking something "simple" as doing an exact match, requires you to know a) that option is needed in the first place, and b) the method how to specify (or enable) that option.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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I put my two cents on Cynthia's original comments.
Logos should be far, far more intuitive to use. There are some things that beginners need to do, and these things need to be more intuitive. The Library should be far simpler to manage and organize. Basic searches should be more intuitive. The reading experience should be better.
Logos is a great product. I have used practically since its beginning - every day. But Logos could be much better to use. In some ways, less would be more.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Josh said:
Make this resource free:
No, that is not the answer. Beginners should be able to intuitively do basic things without taking a class, or the software has a design failure. The problem is not the customers.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Michael Childs said:
Beginners should be able to intuitively do basic things without taking a class, or the software has a design failure.
This.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Michael Childs said:
I put my two cents on Cynthia's original comments.
Logos should be far, far more intuitive to use. There are some things that beginners need to do, and these things need to be more intuitive. The Library should be far simpler to manage and organize. Basic searches should be more intuitive. The reading experience should be better.
Logos is a great product. I have used practically since its beginning - every day. But Logos could be much better to use. In some ways, less would be more.
yes. I completely agree.
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Jesse Blevins said:Michael Childs said:
I put my two cents on Cynthia's original comments.
Logos should be far, far more intuitive to use. There are some things that beginners need to do, and these things need to be more intuitive. The Library should be far simpler to manage and organize. Basic searches should be more intuitive. The reading experience should be better.
Logos is a great product. I have used practically since its beginning - every day. But Logos could be much better to use. In some ways, less would be more.
yes. I completely agree.
YES! I think that is what my second response was about. There are basic functions an individual wants to be able to do when they purchase Bible software. If they could have enough of a functional basic program to make them excited about what they just learned and anticipating the treasure around the corner, I think more lay people would use it. (Which I think would be tons of cha-Ching for FaithlLife because that is currently an untapped market). Until that happens, I have stopped recommending Logos to my students, which upsets me. I want to recommend it, but I have some students who spent a good amount of money on Logos because of me, and then got so frustrated that they stopped using it, stating “google is easier.” Google is easier, but if they saw some solid benefit, they would have stuck with it. My students ask me all the time how I found information and to be honest with you, I tell them I use Logos but for the time being, refer them to another free program to get them started in electronic Bible software simply because I don’t want to feel bad that I recommended Logos and they ditched it after hundreds of dollars. Even with the $100 Logos Fundamentals, I’m not recommending it until something changes to make it more user friendly.
Also, thanks everyone for contributing to this plight. These are really great recommendations in this thread. I’m encouraged to see others express their views with such clarity and desire to make Logos a more user-friendly program for us all. Thank you.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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So this is along the lines...but since I didn’t purchase any of these products this way, I’m curious if any of these fit into what we are all talking about.
Wouldn’t it be better and less confusing to sell this as Rosie showed? On an opening screen? Then, allow people to purchase unlock codes for features. But let’s not forget that this is not so much about the packaging of the sets but what help is available in each set.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Here's another search question asking why search didn't produce the expected results. One would naturally expect that if you searched for "Psalms of Solomon," one of the results would be the actual text itself.
After being shown the proper search string, the OP made the comment that {Milestone <Pseudepigrapha = Psalms of Solomon 1.1>} "is not a very easy way to find "Psalms of Solomon" in my library." After being directed to the "Finding the right datatype" information at the wiki, the OP replied, "Well, that looks like something I don't want to have to learn."
I think we need to change our thinking that complexity like that is actually necessary to perform certain types of "Basic" searches.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Why do I have to pay so much money to get Adobe Photoshop and then find it so confusing. It is so much easier to get Instagram app or some other for free and get the work quicker. Plus after paying so much to Adobe, I have To pay much more money to get the training to use it. O, by the way, I almost forgot to mention that it requires even powerful computer to run it. i find those free programs much easier to understand and user friendly.
I hope you got my point
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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All the search “magic words” and “combinations“ you have to put together is too much work; not to mention all the key combinations you need to use to put together a special collection. The mystery is to know where to even go to find this information to get the search to work...And voila, you have to pay $100 bucks to get almost 3 hours worth of Verbum videos to learn how to do searches that most apply to Logos!
I’m thankful for MVPs and power users that give us the “codes” to work some of these, but I agree it should be less complex to find what we need. And it shouldn’t cost less than a $100 dollars (literally 1 cent short of $100; i.e. $99.99) to get access to this information.
DAL
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PetahChristian said:
Here's another search question asking why search didn't produce the expected results. One would naturally expect that if you searched for "Psalms of Solomon," one of the results would be the actual text itself.
Yeah I agree. Search is too difficult, and that thread is a good example of the problem.
I don't use very complicated searches, but usually I have to use a combination of Bible Browser and the Search box to find what I want. When Bible Browser first came out, I thought it would solve this problem, but it too has gotten too complicated, and often I can't get it to do what I need by itself.
It's ironic as there's an online training video that shows a much simpler form of Bible Browser with much fewer facets. That one I think I could use, but the actual one I have is too difficult to figure out.
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I need to weigh in here before too much misleading information appears. Bible references, the basic function of the program,are much simpler. The access to the pseudepigrapha is more difficult partially because they are old resources, built back in the Logos on disks days. There are simpler ways of accessing what the OP requested as Bradley pointed out. However, because of an earlier exchange with the OP, I chose to show the general principle. In other words, I hoped to move the OP on the fast track to power user given the nature of his questions.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I thought Logos8 was the easy to use search engine, plus speed-uppers.
Rick's last-minute datasets were needed for the new easy-to-use search. I always wondered who in their wildest dreams needed those datasets, absent a good user interface,
At least, if my competition was now a fast-on-its-feet Floridian better-designed company, anyway.
OTOH, if the Now'ers (or the latest name) already have L8, this thread is interesting at least.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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PetahChristian said:
Here's another search question asking why search didn't produce the expected results. One would naturally expect that if you searched for "Psalms of Solomon," one of the results would be the actual text itself.
After being shown the proper search string, the OP made the comment that {Milestone <Pseudepigrapha = Psalms of Solomon 1.1>} "is not a very easy way to find "Psalms of Solomon" in my library." After being directed to the "Finding the right datatype" information at the wiki, the OP replied, "Well, that looks like something I don't want to have to learn."
I think we need to change our thinking that complexity like that is actually necessary to perform certain types of "Basic" searches.
Wonderful example!!!! TO HAVE to find “the right datatype“ is a ridiculous expection on the part of the user. Especially for those who have absolutely no idea what is a datatype, never mind having to KNOW that you need not only a datatype string, but the RIGHT datatype string AND the ability to know how to type out that datatype string.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Denise said:
I thought Logos8 was the easy to use search engine, plus speed-uppers.
Rick's last-minute datasets were needed for the new easy-to-use search. I always wondered who in their wildest dreams needed those datasets, absent a good user interface,
At least, if my competition was now a fast-on-its-feet Floridian better-designed company, anyway.
OTOH, if the Now'ers (or the latest name) already have L8, this thread is interesting at least.
Denise, can you explain for those of us who have no idea what you mean.
A. Is Logos8 out? I’m a ”Nower” (again, money spent to make this program easier to figure out) and I didn’t see an upgrade.
B. Who is Rick and what are you talking about with easy to use search datasets because of course, I would NEED that (not want...need).
C. Competition in Florida? Huh?
As always, wonderful trying to figure you out! LOL
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Cynthia in Florida said:
A. Is Logos8 out? I’m a ”Nower” (again, money spent to make this program easier to figure out) and I didn’t see an upgrade.
According to history, Logos 8 is due in August!
Cynthia in Florida said:B. Who is Rick and what are you talking about with easy to use search datasets because of course, I would NEED that (not want...need).
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) provides regular news on coming Dataset Updates. You might gather that datasets are not actually "easy to use" in searches!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Even Software developers know deep inside that searches are not easy in Logos Bible Software! They’re in denial if they claim they are 🤨
They’re probably developed that way to create extra cash off of training for investors. I’m sure MP and Learn Logos must be giving FL a cut of their profits for showing others how to use Logos. If that’s not the case then I’ll become a power user and then create my videos and sell them to the Spanish community to make money off of them 👍😁👌
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DAL said:
Even Software developers know deep inside that searches are not easy in Logos Bible Software! They’re in denial if they claim they are 🤨
They’re probably developed that way to create extra cash off of training for investors. I’m sure MP and Learn Logos must be giving FL a cut of their profits for showing others how to use Logos. If that’s not the case then I’ll become a power user and then create my videos and sell them to the Spanish community to make money off of them 👍😁👌
I think valuable, constructive conversations go south when we start making asssumptions about things we don’t know for a fact or is none of our business. If we stick to facts, I believe FL WILL listen because they have proven to be a company that listens to their customers and wants to fix this. Only by sticking to the facts will we, and the staff of FL who are reading this, not have to swim through mud in order to actually see the valid concerns and thus, make positive changes that benefit us all.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Cynthia in Florida said:
I believe FL WILL listen because they have proven to be a company that listens to their customers and wants to fix this
I agree. There's been lot's of talk (and "noise") about simplifying search, especially in the last year it feels like. I'm really hoping L8 will take a big step in this direction. Faithlife has proven time and again, that it's customers' concerns matter, and I'm sure search simplification is a serious consideration. If speculations hold on the release of L8, we could potentially have less than ~30 days to see whether this gets addressed. I've had some serious disappointments with FL, but I honestly (now) trust FL to do the right thing, further than I trust almost any other company.
In short: FL, I love Logos and want it to be used by as many believers as possible. I know you want that as well and I trust that you'll seriously consider making the software more approachable for beginners, without reducing its power for the serious/in-depth user.
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Cynthia in Florida said:Lee said:
Thanks Cynthia, for voicing out some of my thoughts.
I struggle most with the search functions. It's just cryptic. The B company nailed it.
Lee: You and me both! It is very frustrating...and as you said, cryptic. Of all my frustrations in learning Logos, this is at the top of the list.
I thought you purchased the Advance Search video: https://www.logos.com/product/51655/verbum-advanced-search-training which came out a good while ago.
Bottom line, my last two cents. FL could provide the training, but if people don’t put in the time to learn then it’s all for naught. The point, though, Logos needs to be simplified a bit more. Not dumbed down, but simplified. And we all need to keep in mind that there is a learning curve for everything — even the simple things.
DAL
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DAL said:
Even Software developers know deep inside that searches are not easy in Logos Bible Software!
The question is can anyone design a different interface that:
- walks the user through formulating their question well (know what you really want)
- is quick to use (the user doesn't get annoyed because they could type it in faster than going through building it)
- retains the power of the current search
- reads well (you know at a glance what a saved search does/minimizes jargon)
- doesn't override the user by going with the most common request (see Google overriding book specification below)
Unfortunately, I have only seen incremental improvements suggested - not a full solution. Please, if someone has a comprehensive idea, throw it out here.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Unfortunately, I have only seen incremental improvements suggested - not a full solution. Please, if someone has a comprehensive idea, throw it out here.
I would love a Solution Builder like the one your bulle t points encapsulate.
With respect, it is FL's job to create a Solution Builder. + do they wanna, really, really wanna...or not???
Its a conundrum that the people on these forums that might know how to solution-ate do not have to because they are power users. They are, rightly so, busy using the product.
Its people like me who need the solution who do not have the vocab to talk about it, let alone come up with even a piece of the solution.
I phoned another Bible software provider Friday, + could not explain what I wanted in a manner the guy appreciated. He used an arrogant tone with me, + I finally hung up. I cannot solve FL's [thus far known] disinterest in simple + elegant, as I would have to use prototypes to check ease of use. I have trouble enough talking to the cable provider, using words the listener can vibe.
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scooter said:
With respect, it is FL's job to create a Solution Builder.
I agree but only if it is possible which I am not sure it is. However, I believe the Bible Browser and the Morph Query Builder are evidence that Faithlife is well aware of the problem and is working on it.
It reminds me of a reporting requirement that the Washington State Legislature passed in the 1980's which was mathematically impossible to provide unless you knew the future. When we finally convinced the regulators that the bill requested the impossible, we figured out a way to generate numbers that looked good but were not accurate which the regulators understood they should ignore. The moral I took from that experience was "be sure what you are asking for is possible".
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rosie Perera said:
Logos is too complex for newbie users.
Right Click contextual menu is a bit too complex for all users. Design decision for Right Click to always show all searchable items in Logos/Verbum can be more annoying than useful for work flow. After selecting a line on the right side of Right Click, the Left Side has many sections sorted in alphabetical order.
Example frustration: older Logos versions (with fewer datasets) had a quick option for opening a Commentary using Right Click: Reference => Top 5 Bibles (with Commentary in Top 5 prioritized list). As more sections were added for Bible Reference, quick option has become quite tedious due to scrolling need past uninteresting sections. Apologies since personally do not share Bible Reference using social media so having that section (and others) ABOVE Top 5 has resulted into finding a different way to open Commentary for a verse using Explorer.
My desktop application dreams => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/148421/923667.aspx#923667 include
- Contextual pop-up customization of Right and Left Hand sides: similar to Guides that allows section order to be rearranged as desired so dreaming of "My Contextual Right" and "My Contextual Left" guides with templates that could be edited. Guide metaphor has sections that appear when appropriate. Currently contextual pop-up has applicable sections shown in alphabetical order all the time.
A quick way for improving performance is avoiding unneeded effort. For example, at times want to see everything that Contextual menu can show. At other times only desire useful subset. Most days do not have use for Literary Typing, Genre tagging, Send to Proclaim, Share, .. so would appreciate Guide like option to not show them (or place more useful sections above them). Guides have performance option of section being closed, which would be helpful for contextual sections too.
Cynthia in Florida said:Until that happens, I have stopped recommending Logos to my students, which upsets me. I want to recommend it, but I have some students who spent a good amount of money on Logos because of me, and then got so frustrated that they stopped using it, stating “google is easier.”
Curious about frustration example(s) ? Usage scenarios about student desires with frustration comments should be helpful for interface improvement.
Irony is Faithlife trying to mimic Google search with false positive results while being annoying from time to populate search suggestions (or previous search, factbook, ...). Related thread is => FRUSTRATED with Logos wasting my computer cycles
Personally dreaming about automatic search suggestion customization: e.g. for Languages with lemmas, show Lemma and Root suggestions while not showing word variant spellings (tedious to scroll past word variants for Lemma/Root suggestions).
Design challenge is what's intuitive for one user can be counter intuitive to another user.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Cynthia in Florida said:
Denise, can you explain for those of us who have no idea what you mean.
A. Is Logos8 out? I’m a ”Nower” (again, money spent to make this program easier to figure out) and I didn’t see an upgrade.
B. Who is Rick and what are you talking about with easy to use search datasets because of course, I would NEED that (not want...need).
C. Competition in Florida? Huh?
As always, wonderful trying to figure you out! LOL
Adding/expanding to Dave's comments:
A. L8 isn't yet out. I thought L8 was supposed to make Logos easier. But in theory, Now-ers already have L8 (L7 plus new features). So, a better user experience must be slated for L9 (possibly L13, hard to say).
Adding to 'A', Phil also said the web version gets the newest stuff, not desktop Logos. So, L13 may be a realistic prophesy.
B. As Dave noted, Rick Brannon seems driven to publish mucho datasets that few can use. Since Rick is smart, that makes me suspect an easy search is soon to arrive (contra 'A').
C. Florida is Accordance. Accordance has a smaller tighter software footprint, no longer competing with Bibleworks, and so can more quickly 'hit the numbers' than FL. Nimble-icity vs molassas-icity.
But overall, I can't believe after 10 years, Logos' answer to wide-spread user search incompetence, is to add some cookbook examples. Surely Rick hints at a major search enhancement?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Design decision for Right Click to always show all searchable items in Logos/Verbum can be more annoying than useful for work flow.
What is interesting to me is that this is primary reason I use the Context Menu - I use it in lieu of an information panel because it takes no space and I can easily find the information I want on the right hand side. Most of the time, I don't need to go somewhere or do something once I have the information. The difference in our usage is exactly what makes Faithlife's job hellacious.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Denise said:
But in theory, Now-ers already have L8 (L7 plus new features).
Not every new feature in a major release gets pre-released. There were new features in L7.0 that Now subscribers didn't have early access to, and we should expect new features in L8.0 which haven't been pre-released.
Denise said:So, a better user experience must be slated for L9 (possibly L13, hard to say).
We have no idea what UX changes might or might not come in L8. But FL has known about this issue for a long time, and it wouldn't surprise me if they roll out some UX improvements in L8 (in addition to new features).
Denise said:Adding to 'A', Phil also said the web version gets the newest stuff, not desktop Logos. So, L13 may be a realistic prophesy.
New Atlas/Maps have already made it from the web to desktop Logos.
It does take longer for new stuff being rolled out on the web app to make it to the desktop, but we'll still get other new features before L9 ships. Phil has already said that the new notes system should be coming to the desktop (stable release) in 2019 (which should still be L8.x).
Denise said:I can't believe after 10 years, Logos' answer to wide-spread user search incompetence, is to add some cookbook examples.
The search learning curve is steep, and it takes time and experience to master it. Perhaps intimidation is a better word than incompetence?
One of the problems that you pointed out is that more and more datasets get added, requiring more parameters for "old" search (and more facets for Bible Browser). These added choices don't help UX, especially since many users generally aren't manually searching these newer datasets. (It would be interesting to see which ones were "popular," and which ones don't get much use.)
I think we all agree that if the learning curve could be flattened out a lot, more people should be able to accomplish more, without being overwhelmed by the apparent complexity and obscurity.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Denise, Denise, Denise ...
You said
Denise said:B. As Dave noted, Rick Brannon seems driven to publish mucho datasets that few can use.
While Dave said
Dave Hooton said:Rick Brannan (Faithlife) provides regular news on coming Dataset Updates. You might gather that datasets are not actually "easy to use" in searches!
You may note the omission of the qualification "in searches" - I agree wholeheartedly with Dave on this and often use a shortcut to avoid it. However, I find the datasets easy to use in other contexts - interactives, Bible Browser, Context Menu, Information Panel ....
However, my cool trick so I don't have to know much to use the datasets in a Search (which reminds me of a request I need to make). First, use the Bible browser facets to find the passages you need to exam. For my example I'm trying to identify miracles of healing by Jesus where John was present. So my text to search is miracles of healing by Jesus:
I save the results as a Passage List and go to a standard Bible search. I limit my search to the Passage List. I type <Person John and wait for autocomplete to help me identify the right John. I hit enter and voila! eureka! woozee! Pretty cool, right? And I didn't need to know any of the complex dataset syntax. [Yes, I know it is imprecise as not all healing miracle by Jesus begin and end on a verse boundary. But I can live with that.]
Editted:
Because the John term could have been chosen in the Bible Browser as well, here is an example that requires the Search function as well - the phrase "at once" in healing miracles of Jesus.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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A quick way for improving performance is avoiding unneeded effort. For example, at times want to see everything that Contextual menu can show. At other times only desire useful subset. Most days do not have use for Literary Typing, Genre tagging, Send to Proclaim, Share, .. so would appreciate Guide like option to not show them (or place more useful sections above them). Guides have performance option of section being closed, which would be helpful for contextual sections too.
Excellent suggestion!
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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