When Bible Software Marketing Crosses a Theological Line
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Nah. Delete. Sorry.
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Francis said:
Nah. Delete. Sorry.
Francis,
Thanks for your recent efforts to draw attention to areas in need of considerable improvement.
I read the post you deleted. I thought it was respectful but also think I understand why you removed it.
"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963
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Denise said:
Well, Phil. Being a marketer, you have to admit the theological thunderbolts from Mount Olympus has certainly done wonders for the blog article.
Mount Olympus?
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Francis: well said. I read your reply via email before you deleted it from the forums. I thought you addressed the Matthew passage well.
It's not at all clear to me that it applies to this instance in the way JAL suggests--the original Logos blog post was in a public forum, and my suggestion/complaint was with the company as a whole, not an individual person. I can't very well visit, call, or email everyone in the marketing department or company, so I posted here.
And, bizarre legal definitions notwithstanding, I don't believe that "corporations are people," so I don't see that passage as applying here. Like I said--I had an issue with the post, but it was much larger than just one post, since I've seen similar statements companywide before. I can appreciate JAL's bringing it up, though.
Phil: Thank you for your reply and taking it under consideration. I appreciate it. In fact, even though we may agree to disagree in the end, I would think putting the sort of openness and nuance of your reply here into marketing copy would be a good step forward.
Abram K-J: Pastor, Writer, Freelance Editor
Blog: Words on the Word0 -
What we have to remember is that Faithlife, despite the name is a business. I would agree with Abram in Spirit. I do not think FL is being evil in their marking (more so than feeding the idol of Consumerism that is at the heart of a business needing to make money). FL does a service offing interest free loans (yes if your purchase is very small $5 a month administrative fee is perhaps seem a high interest rate, but in a larger amount it seems very much what is claims to be an administrative fee. I owe FL a whole lot of money and am glad for my Library and the chance to actually get it at an affordable monthly rate of payment. I do not think FL can be blamed for encouraging sales, but I am thankful for Abram's post to remind us of of stewardship of resources God has given us and remind us ultimately we must decide when enough is enough for the corporation will always say, "just a little more".
-Dan
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arg.
Op and name caller have been scolded enough, my addition wouldn't have been helpful.
Also - helpful post Phil, thanks!L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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I spent a good portion of my working career in advertising and public relations, something also reflected in my work as a writer and editor frequently dealing with marketing folks.
So my take on this is really very simple. Assume that stewardship is my personal responsibility. The largest factor of that is learning to say yes to some things and that means saying no to other things. And that God be glorified above all.
Enjoy what you can say yes to and rejoice in God's abundance.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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"..one's personality"?Schumitinu said:It does undermine important Christian values. Depending on one's personality it might even further greed, wanting to have more and more books.
This shifts responsibility from the individual to the big, bad corporation. I know of a certain Bible school that has banned females from wearing open-toed shoes because one male among their midst has a moral problem that is expressed as a foot fetish. (I kid you not.) When are Christian men going to accept responsibility for their character flaws (greed, pride and book envy)?
It is time for confession rather than accusation.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Phil Gons, I appreciate the spirit of your response even though I and many others believe the original post was below the belt and delivered with a strict standard that many of us doubt the author would apply to himself with the same rigor. Judging fellow brothers in Christ (Faithlife) while giving yourself a free pass is one of the most ugliest things Christians can do.
When that author is able and willing to offer to pay all the mortgages and living expenses of all the Faithlife employees, then he can talk about how to do things as a ministry, but to apply his suggestions to the fullest would result in so many losing their jobs and almost certainly the financial collapse of Faithlife.
In the Millennium, Christ will bankroll all His projects, but we don't have that kind of financial support right now, so unfortunately, we're stuck with using the business models of the world until He comes.
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I was careful in my post not to call anyone's character into question, but to question the "marketing mantras" at Faithlife that seem to me to be at odds with important values of stewardship, etc.--noting clearly that this effect on their end could be "however unintentionally."
I'm baffled at the number of ad hominem replies on this thread. At least some of the posters engage the issue itself (that I brought up in the OP) after making their ad hominem remarks.
David--as for applying the standard to myself, you might have missed my, "I’m as guilty of this mentality as anyone (probably more so)–and I want to fight it."
Abram K-J: Pastor, Writer, Freelance Editor
Blog: Words on the Word0 -
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I have experienced that benefit repeatedly!Phil Gons said:you will benefit from Logos books that you didn't intend to use or even know that you had.
I think this is a benefit that many people do not understand until they have experienced it. I believe it is one of the greatest strengths of Logos books over other editions. I know you already market in this direction, but I think if more potential users understood this it would greatly increase sales and usage.Phil Gons said:If you have the right books that are richly tagged, interconnected, and deeply integrated into the tools of the software, the software will go and fetch you relevant discussions to your study without your even knowing you have the book.
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I think it is important for us users to remember that all products have a shelf life. When I was in elementary school my parents bought me a lot of educational software for the Apple IIc. None of it works any longer. I don't even know if the Apple IIc would fire up if I tried it. When you buy a print book, it gets musty or mildews or eventually rots, unless you work hard to maintain it through proper climate control which costs money, time, and effort. Also, when a print book gets updated, you don't get a free new copy from the publisher.
Logos books are the same. The only way for us to keep those books maintained and up to date is for Logos to continue to make new profits which they have chosen to do through the sale of books. They could have chosen to charge for updates, new engines, or have a subscription fee. I'm glad they opted for the model they did because I understand they need revenue to stay in business and I'd rather buy new books every year than pay a fee or buy updates. So I don't mind their marketing. I know my limits and I stick to them. I only spend what I can, that keeps them in business and me afloat. Ultimately, it's a balancing act.
This is not a reply to any particular person's comments, just a general observation in response to the entire thread.
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Kevin Maples said:
I think this is a benefit that many people do not understand until they have experienced it.
Some users may have benefited already, but without knowing about it?
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
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Logos has some very good thoughts in their own blog.
http://blog.vyrso.com/tag/debt-proof-living/
Point 4 is crucial:
"4. The average American has over $15,000 in credit-card debt. What’s the first step someone should take to get out of debt?
Stop adding to it. Remove the temptation. [...]"
Clear advice from a Logos approved expert.
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Abram K-J said:
I'm baffled at the number of ad hominem replies on this thread.
I'm not. There seems to be a handful of folks who live in the forums for the specific purpose of being nasty to people who ask a certain type of question.
You have to learn to tune out their shouting and focus on the people who are actually giving answers or engaging in discussion. I sometimes slip and shoot back (not literally, with a gun, but figuratively, by pointing out their behavior); it is rarely effective. So we plod on.
I appreciate you bringing up this question. It is worth considering, and has theological/biblical merit. I thought you were careful to not sound shrill or angry, but rather voiced an opinion about a marketing scheme. Whether folks agree with your analysis of the plan or not, discussions like this are in order, I think.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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I'm not...I just did a logos survey that was sent to me in which I articulated that very point... Good to here from ya Doc B...Doc B said:Bryan S. said:Wow... And I thought my thread on needing a user manual went south...
Don't give up on that one, Bryan. I'm not.
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.
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Paul Lee said:
In consumerism, freedom is often equated with consumer's choice; and the consumer's need are unlimited and insatiable (Craig Bartholomew. Christ and Consumerism. http://www.reformationalpublishingproject.com/pdf_books/Scanned_Books_PDF/ChristandConsumerism.pdf) As we build our collection of books, we risk being enslaved by our consumerist instinct while forgetting the kingdom's perspective.
Here's a challenge: Instead of selling the books you acquire in Logos, give those hard copies away to someone else.
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Brian W. Davidson said:
I don't think this post is below the belt at all. I think it makes a valid point. I love Logos, but based on my experience their marketing puts a bad taste in the mouths of many people.
Well said.
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Kevin Maples said:
The only way for us to keep those books maintained and up to date is for Logos to continue to make new profits which they have chosen to do through the sale of books. They could have chosen to charge for updates, new engines, or have a subscription fee. I'm glad they opted for the model they did because I understand they need revenue to stay in business and I'd rather buy new books every year than pay a fee or buy updates. So I don't mind their marketing. I know my limits and I stick to them. I only spend what I can, that keeps them in business and me afloat. Ultimately, it's a balancing act.
This is true![Y]0 -
Sometimes I wonder if the marketing dept. at Faithlife could be a more powerful service to the Church than any of its software products.
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Rene Atchley said:
Sometimes I wonder if the marketing dept. at Faithlife could be a more powerful service to the Church than any of its software products.
So would McDonalds but its not their business. Their business is to sell the product they produce to customers who want it. Logos sells resources to customers who want theological products. Noet sells resources to customers who want Philosophical products. That is their business and as it has been said time and time again it is not a ministry to the Church or anyone else.
Some complained when Logos started selling Catholic products.
Some complained when Logos started selling Seventh day Adventist products.
Some complained when Logos started selling secular classics.
As far as the Theological line being crossed I would ask WHOSE THEOLOGICAL LINE?
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I now declare my self the arbiter of theological lines. If you have a question regarding theological lines, please take a number and I'll get back to you in 6-8 months. Thanks for your time.
Just kidding. That is a good point Kent. There are as many non-(or quazi-non) heretical theological view points on a given subject as there are people in a given room in general.
Which reminds me that theological discussions are meant to be had at Christiandiscourse.com .L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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When they cancelled Dracula, that came close to crossing mine.[;)]Kent said:As far as the Theological line being crossed I would ask WHOSE THEOLOGICAL LINE?
"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963
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abondservant said:
I now declare my self the arbiter of theological lines.
Cool someone in charge, do you have any kool aid I could have??? heheheh But seriously I do think it was a question not of theological lines but of maybe is this ad in line with a Christian company? It seemed like a valid question and a reminder to be judicious with our resources God has provided. As I said above I didn't think it really crossed a line but I am glad Abram started the thread to give people and FL a chance to evaluate the advertisement. I do not think he attacked FL but did well to express his unease over the AD. This is valuable to FL because if he feels this way, many others might also feel this way and the last thing FL wanted to do is offend customers. But seriously I am thirsty where is my Kool Aid????
[:P]
-Dan
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For those who use the phrase 'Its a business', please read this.
I actually found this thread because I just did a search to see if anybody else had issues with the Marketing of Logos. I've contacted Logos before and did get a good response. However, after feeling like a piece of meat once again on the phone a few minutes ago, I'm just disappointed because I love the software and use it daily.
Yes Logos has tons of overhead. So does Chick-Filet. I wish we had more up North here. They give an entirely different feel to their business when you interact with them. They make Jesus look good in so many ways. They even close on Sundays but I think they're still doing fine. Whether you sell 'Bible Software' or not, every Christian (business or not) is required to 'Do everything as if you're doing it for the Lord and not for man' regardless of where you are or what you are doing. Logos and every other company can either trust God with their corporate finances / overhead and go about serving people the way He says to, OR go ahead and do what everyone else does and appear aggressive in order to make the numbers work and keep it all afloat. Whether you sell for Sears or sell Bibles, you're a Christian so it doesn't matter. Please operate your business by FAITH in following what the ONE MAIN book in our library says. It's not hard to know what that is. Its a simple decision upfront to trust God with the balance sheet like every Pastor, business and homeowner has to do. Hard to do, yes. I feel for Bob and all the leadership at Logos because the burden has to be difficult to bear. But we bear His name especially when its in the corporate title. Thats my burden on all of this. Get the name of Jesus out there and make Him look good so that Souls can be saved ... however much time is left.
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To be fair, I should add not everyone is rude. Most are not actually. I'm more concerned/irritated by what I sense is a pushy marketing strategy which is coming through. I do appreciate you all and hope I wasn't too critical. I do think the concern is valid though and worth serious consideration of a revamped approach.
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Steve said:
Unfortunately some FL representatives are better than others. I am sorry that the person Brian spoke with made him feel that way. I have been on the phone with some like that too... I personally prefer to deal via email for that reason (although the gentleman I deal with now is pretty good, I still prefer to do email).
-Dan
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I should probably clarify on that comment. I called to get some info/understanding on a product I already owned but it wasn't long before I got the seguae into 'the benefits of upgrading ...' When he asked me point blank and realized I wasn't planning to buy anything it felt like the fake smile and 'we're done here'. No rude comments, just irritating to sense getting professionally blown off when it was clear I wasn't going to buy.
No idea of the sales compensation structure at Logos but maybe kill the 'commission' approach so they can concentrate on servicing with no strings attached. Can't blame people for wanting to feed their families but the reputation of Logos isn't being helped in my opinion when it feels like they are being trained to never let a caller off the phone before giving them the opportunity to upgrade. The majority seem like very good people so it feels more like something they are being trained to do.
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I have not found the sales people very knowledgeable about the details of a product. I'd suggest that the forums are a better source of most detailed product information although there are times when a product manager or other Faithlife employee has details known only to the creators of the resource.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I'd suggest that the forums are a better source of most detailed product information
I tend to agree with you, MJ, but this begs the question of the real nature of having non-employee volunteers carry your water for you (in terms of product support).
The forums should be a value-added feature for a premium software package like Logos. Instead, they are the primary means of support for many, or so it seems. I really think this is a major Achilles-type heel in the Faithlife marketing and product plan. It bothers me a lot, as you can tell from my signature.
In spite of Bob's posts on not having a manual, written documentation would take a major load off the support folks at Faithlife, and would make the company look much more interested in real customer service than they look now.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc ... you're definitely right. Just this morning I was amused (and grateful) to read on the forum how one could re-base the selected book in the new L6 harmony.
The amusement was that so many features in Logos go unnoticed due to the documentation being so fragmented (if indeed this specific feature was ever described). Just yesterday, preparing for a trip, I had our car's PDF manual out, to check if the USB was powered ... so refreshing to just read a manual.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I don't have any doubt the people at Logos work day and night to produce a great product. I think its fair to say its impossible to train employees to know the details of thousands of products they offer. Most probably have less training than the people they service which is why the forums may be a good solution for now. Maybe team up with a few good websites to provide some links to the actual products might be nice too.
As far as software features I think the tutorials Logos offer are very good but pail in comparison to the best they have to offer which is the MP Seminars courses & materials. If you haven't attended a seminar I can almost assure you you're at 50% or less efficiency on how you use it. Bold statement, but when pastor after pastor walks away from the first lunch break on day 1 of the training and says 'I already got my money's worth', I think it speaks volumes. I don't work for them but the training is good enough I pay the money to go annually now ... and then use the features/shortcuts customized to the way I do work the entire year. That's my thoughts. Hope its helpful.
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MP Seminars probably has the manual you're looking for.
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Of course, Brian, you might wonder why pastor after pastor comments so heartily at the first lunch ... the available information about Logos is that poor?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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The real point of the Manual thing is no matter how great MP is it should not need to be done. A person may well benefit from a driving course. But to borrow Denise's example further one shouldn't need to go to a course to learn all the features of ones car. I have said before and will say again the help system in Verbum/Logos offers most of what a manual needs to be and just needs a little polishing and fleshing out to make it very good.
-dan
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Dan Francis said:
The real point of the Manual thing is no matter how great MP is it should not need to be done.
I always had a bad gut feeling about there being a need for a Camp Logos from the very first year it was introduced (can't remember when that was, but I think back in the 90s). Logos did used to come with a thin printed manual, but it was always done by a third party and was never very good. And they ditched it as of Logos 3. I have attended a Camp Logos with MP, and he is indeed a great instructor. By the time I attended it, though, I'd already been an MVP for a while and knew the software very well, so I didn't learn much that was new to me, but a couple of things I did learn.
There's no substitute for long experience using the product to learn it well. But I do agree that a good user's manual provided for free with the software would be a big help for many users in getting started on this learning curve. On the other hand, I also understand that the cost of printing a paper user's manual in an era where a huge percentage of users prefer online documentation might not be warranted. But maybe a Logos resource that is an in-depth user's manual, to go above and beyond what's provided in the Help file, including screenshots and all, would be a blessing. It would be costly to produce and it would be tricky to get it right and time the completion to release dates, but it is a goal that Faithlife should aim towards.
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Rosie Perera said:
But I do agree that a good user's manual provided for free with the software would be a big help for many users in getting started on this learning curve. On the other hand, I also understand that the cost of printing a paper user's manual in an era where a huge percentage of users prefer online documentation might not be warranted. But maybe a Logos resource that is an in-depth user's manual, to go above and beyond what's provided in the Help file, including screenshots and all, would be a blessing. It would be costly to produce and it would be tricky to get it right and time the completion to release dates, but it is a goal that Faithlife should aim towards.
This is what is indeed needed, an in-depth manual that is provided free with the software! If the cost is too high to print, then provide a digital manual that can be downloaded and then the individual can determine if they want to print it out or not. I don't understand why it hasn't been done before now. It is a need. Users have been saying it for a long time.
Charlene
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Although the development process in favour at Faithlife belays the concept of a finished software product, there are components of Verbum/Logos that essentially reach a finished status. I would suggest that no component be moved from beta to shipping/stable release status until full documentation has been produced for it.
Dan Francis said:...one shouldn't need to go to a course to learn all the features...
I heartily agree, document the features properly and build the cost into the price of the product. This is something every user needs.
Additional training for how to use a feature properly is also nice, but it is an option and thus warrants an extra charge to those who want or need it.
"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963
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Back in Logos 2.0 Level 4 there was an electronic version of a user manual. I find the ad copy on the box rather amusing.
- Electronic User’s Guide: Better than help files, we have actually made our user’s guide into a real electronic book! Forget frustrating help file indices, now you can search your entire user’s guide for all occurrences of any word or subject.
If it is better than a help file, why the regression?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Super.Tramp said:
Back in Logos 2.0 Level 4 there was an electronic version of a user manual. I find the ad copy on the box rather amusing.
- Electronic User’s Guide: Better than help files, we have actually made our user’s guide into a real electronic book! Forget frustrating help file indices, now you can search your entire user’s guide for all occurrences of any word or subject.
If it is better than a help file, why the regression?
Good point!
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