Why I am going back to L3

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This post has 21 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 223
shark tacos | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jan 19 2010 7:30 PM

I do love the design of L4. I had no trouble understanding the new interface, and for the most part it runs fast enough on my computer. I really wish I could use L4.

But one of the main things I do with Logos is translation from the Greek. For this I will often hover mouse over Greek or Hebrew words to see the gloss or parsing in the popup. This worked great in Logos 3, but in Logos 4 it has become unusable. Instead of a popup appearing conveniently adjacent to the word with compact information and an instantly responsive information window (see image), the popup now appears several inches away from the curser at the base of the screen in an impossibly long line of text. (again see the attached screenshot for a comparison), further the once fast information window on my very fast computer now takes a good 4-5 seconds to respond, making it unusable for this purpose.

That would be bad enough, but it get's worse. Because each word has a different amount of content associated with it, the popup varies in length, meaning my eye must zig-zag back and forth across the screen from the text I am reading to where ever the variable length popup is and back again, making for a very uncomfortable headache producing reading expereince.

I do this constantly in Logos, and find it a great way to work and become familiar with the original languages. The new interface now makes this impossible. What a shame. I had really looked forward to Logos 4, and was immediately attracted to the new design.

I really hope they will change this awkward GUI in the future. Until then, I will reluctantly be returning to Logos 3 which, while it is not quite as elegant looking, nevertheless has a GUI which is functional and fast.

Posts 582
Gary O'Neal | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 19 2010 7:52 PM

The information window is very slow on my machine also. I'm pleased with most things L4, but this is a feature I just don't use. I use layouts that don't use the Information window.

To help with the lexicon info, you can use the Lexham Greek-English Interlinear NT and turn off everything except the Greek text.

 

Now, when you need help with a word, you can hover over a word and it gives you an instant popup window.

πάντα εἰς δόξαν θεοῦ ποιεῖτε

Posts 336
Icarus38376 | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 19 2010 8:08 PM

That's funny, I was just thinking of that fact that when I walked over an English bible word in L3, I used used to get the Strong's lexicon entry (English to Hebrew vs. Hebrew to English).  That was part of L3 key linking which is gone. But I imagine it's possible to do what I and you want we just haven't figured it out yet.  Can anybody help?

 

Hang on shark man, maybe someone can help...

Posts 9479
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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 19 2010 8:08 PM

Another layout of the Lexham Interlinear would give you all the info for the New Testament without any need for a pop-up:

Obviously you can do the same thing with the Hebrew.

These force you to use a text you may not prefer and force you to see the interlinear text whether you want to or not. It ain't identnical to L3 but like other things, Logos 4 it requires shifting our thinking and methods.

BTW: I liked the old pop-up way, too, and would be glad to see its return.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 493
Brian W. Davidson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 19 2010 8:34 PM

I agree with you that the slow information window is a significant problem.

I still use Libronix (L3) when doing Hebrew translation because of this, and other bugs with respect to Hebrew and Greek searching. I have yet to figure out all the new Greek and Hebrew search commands. Performing even simple lemma searches w/o having to include accents seems to be a problem.

Logos did us a great service with the upgrade package deals, but I think they are really pushing the customer's patience with the performance of L4.

Overall I am a satisfied customer of about 7 years, and I trust they will get these kinds of issues worked out.

Posts 223
shark tacos | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 19 2010 9:13 PM

I have the original languages edition which unfortunatly does not include the Lexham interlinear.

Looking at the other sceenshots here I need to amend my complaint:

The popup fuction is disabled/broken for all of the tagged Greek and Hebrew resources. This is true for the NA27, Ralph's LXX, Logos LXX, Forbes Hebrew OT, and the BHS.  In otherwords: for everything. That long line of text in my screenshot is not a popup window at all. The box popup window that is showing in the Lexham screenshots in other posts only shows up for me when I hover over a hyperlinked word (like a footnote).

In Logos 3 popups would appear over taged words. Now they do not. So unless there is some optional "turn on popups" switch I am unaware of (and believe me I would love to be wrong about this!) I must conclude that this not a matter of a new GUI, it is a bug, an error, a loss of functionailty. In other words: The popup function that was working before on tagged items is no longer working in L4. Now popups only shows up when hovering over hyperlinked text.

Posts 223
shark tacos | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 19 2010 9:53 PM

Based in Gary's suggestion (thanks Gary!)  I found a workaround for the Greek using the NA27 interlinear with only the Greek manuscript selected in the display. The popup only works for interlinears, so this solution works.

Until this is fixed, its a good workaround, so I'm pleased about that. Yippie Smile

The only interlinear I found for the Hebrew is the Lexham, and the popup here instead of giving information on the word (parsing, gloss, etc) instead gives useless random footnote information. So I currently do not have a solution for Hebrew.

Posts 223
shark tacos | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 19 2010 9:58 PM

Oh, and of course there are no interlinears (with popup functionality) for the LXX

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 19 2010 10:00 PM

shark tacos:
The popup fuction is disabled/broken for all of the tagged Greek and Hebrew resources.

I think the correct description is that the pop-up function does not exist for these texts. It is not broken as it was never available in Logos 4 and it is not diabled for the same reason.

Getting beyond that, the point is that this is a Logos 3 function whose replacement (the line at the bottom of the pane) doesn't satisfy your needs. You'd like the pop-up function to be included in Logos 4. That is a reasonable request and you've made a good case for seeing it return. I'd be glad to see it at least as an option over the single line we now have.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 223
shark tacos | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2010 12:33 AM

For what it's worth, Logos 3 has the "line at the bottom of the pane" too. So this info line in Logos 3 has an equivalent info line in Logos 4.

The actual popup box is still there, but has been functionality changed to only work with hyperlinks (and interlinears for some reason), whereas it previously had worked with all tagged words. It's there, but does less than before.

While I did manage to get the Greek NT to work with the interlinear trick, this does not work for the Hebrew OT nor for the LXX. Since I frequently jump back and forth between the Greek NT, LXX, and Hebrew OT when doing translation work, I'm afraid that until this functionality is re-implemented I will still reluctantly need to return to Logos 3.

Posts 2744
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2010 1:21 AM

I think the idea is the Info window is the replacement of the pop-ups in L3. You are right however it is terribly slow sometimes. When it works, I find it better than pop-ups, since it is not covering my text in the window I work with. But it needs to be much faster, you are right.

Bohuslav

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2010 5:57 AM

I would be happy to see the pop-up return if it were an option. The popup got in my way most of the time in Libronix. Also I like having to move my eyes more to get the the tagging information. It's incentive to actually remember my Greek paradigms and vocab Smile.

Posts 1130
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2010 6:33 AM

Kevin Becker:

I would be happy to see the pop-up return if it were an option. The popup got in my way most of the time in Libronix. Also I like having to move my eyes more to get the the tagging information. It's incentive to actually remember my Greek paradigms and vocab Smile.

 

This is exactly the way I chose to work and for the same reasons. However, I can see why someone might chose to work in other ways and perhaps the L3 style popups can be reimplemented as an option.

Posts 223
shark tacos | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2010 8:44 AM

Another difference is that in L3 the popup used to have parsing information and a gloss for the Greek (the info line still does in L4). Now in L4 it only has a lexical entry in the popup.

Posts 223
shark tacos | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2010 8:51 AM

Bohuslav Wojnar:

I think the idea is the Info window is the replacement of the pop-ups in L3. You are right however it is terribly slow sometimes. When it works, I find it better than pop-ups, since it is not covering my text in the window I work with. But it needs to be much faster, you are right.

Yes, I would be happy to use the info window instead, if it becomes fast again. I actually prefer the info window over popups.

Posts 270
Stein Dahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2010 9:02 AM

shark tacos:
Another difference is that in L3 the popup used to have parsing information and a gloss for the Greek (the info line still does in L4). Now in L4 it only has a lexical entry in the popup.

Another thing I notice just from your screen shot is the background color of the L3 pop-up versus the white background color of the L4 pop-up.  The L4 pop-up just blends in to the rest of the screen and is harder to see.

It would be nice if we had an option to at least adjust the background color of pop-ups in L4 to our liking.

Personally, I like to be able to more easily see that there is a pop-up on the screen.  But they're not always easy to spot in L4.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2010 11:21 AM

Ok..

Vote time:

I vote for the option for the popups to be more "L3" like, and to have a pastel background color....

Who's with me????

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 50
Randy O'Brien | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2010 11:30 AM

I'm in.

Posts 336
Icarus38376 | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2010 11:34 AM

I will vote for any ability have customizable popups

Posts 223
shark tacos | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 20 2010 11:44 AM

I vote for customizable popups too.

Customizable color, and content (for example toggles to display parsing, transliteration, gloss, lexical entry, etc) so it shows as much, or as little, as the user wants.

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