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This post has 71 Replies | 8 Followers

Posts 9
Wayne Rugenstein | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 15 2015 4:36 PM

Thanks for your attention to this.  I bought the NIV version last night on my Logos account and noticed it's not available to the group, will that be doable in the future or will each user need to purchase the translation?  Can the translation be transferred to another Logos user account?

Wayne

Scott Alexander (Logos):

All, I'm really sorry for the disruption this is causing. It was never our intention to mislead anyone to believe they were purchasing access to these Bibles with an on air subscription. After some research it looks like this regression was introduced in early 2014. This was a big surprise to me, we should have caught it much sooner. 

Licensing Bibles to a group is uncharted territory for Proclaim. I'll be looking into this next week to see what our options are.

Thanks for your patience.

Posts 3501
LogosEmployee
Scott Alexander | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 15 2015 5:04 PM

Wayne Rugenstein:
I bought the NIV version last night on my Logos account and noticed it's not available to the group, will that be doable in the future or will each user need to purchase the translation?

Correct, this is currently a limitation of our agreement with the publisher. I'll be investigating next week to see if there is any potential for flexibility in Proclaim usage.

Wayne Rugenstein:
Can the translation be transferred to another Logos user account?

I believe it's technically possible but requires customer service, so not a great solution for sharing a Bible between group members.

Posts 11
Dawn Ritzie | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 16 2015 4:52 AM

I agree. We had this change made Friday as we were preparing for our weekend services. What a wrench that put in our way of doing things and caused me over an extra hour of prep time to copy and paste and then try to have the version/reference show up correctly in the screen. Because you could not choose a drop down, it did not show correctly And looked sloppy and was not uniform slide to slide. I ended up using song and announcement backgrounds for it. Very disappointed in how this was handled. We previewed proclaim while it had this "bug" that we were not aware of, and presented it as software that we could quickly pull bible verses from WITHOUT FURTHER COST. knowing the extra cost would have been factored into our decision. Especially if only one user can access the translation.  I'd suggest these bugs be fixed on a Monday and notifications sent out.  Allow us to work through having to do things differently before the weekend. 

Posts 34
Robert William Dekker | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 16 2015 6:36 AM

Yeah, I have to add my two cents and say this was not what we signed up for. My church started with Proclaim back when it was still a Beta and we have worked through all the kinks, the mess with upgrading to Mavericks on a mac, finally deciding to switch projection to a Windows machine to make things more fluid, and now this? We had a huge conference at my church this weekend with 18 churches gathered together and me in the booth. Imagine my surprise when the speaker asked for verses to be put up in NASB and IT WASN'T THERE!!!!  Copy/paste from Bible Gateway would have added in all the teensy tiny footnote markings and deleting them would have been cumbersome. And as another user mentioned, the backgrounds were useless when trying to type or copy/paste them in. I ended up TYPING them myself into Power Point and using a plain background.

Please, Logos fix this. You have access to every Bible out there. Make it accessible to those of us who pay for Proclaim.

Posts 8
Shiloh Church | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 16 2015 7:30 AM

Goodbye proclaim.  The long standing problem of a failure to communicate has pushed me over the edge.  This is not something you just take away.  You communicate with your users through an email and then rather than selling al-la-carte translations, you offer an upgrade to have the most popular translations available.  i have been unhappy for some time, but when you mess with the most important feature, the word of God, that's it.  Communication is important event if having many translations there by an accident or bug was a mistake.  For me to add the versions that I need is going to take another $100 on top of my yearly subscription.  Yeah, I will not be renewing that subscription. 

Posts 9
Ryan Foster | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 16 2015 10:45 AM

Yesterday morning was very rough when I realized I couldn't use my normal translations. Thankfully I was able to use my personal Logos account with which I have purchased many different versions. However, I am not the one who runs the software and allowing others to sign in with my credentials is not an option. Please allow users in the same group to share Bible translations!

Posts 3501
LogosEmployee
Scott Alexander | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 16 2015 12:32 PM

All, we have restored the Bibles (to all users) while we work towards a more permanent solution that will work for Proclaim. You can expect email notification before any future changes in this area. I sincerely apologize for the disruption we caused this past weekend. 

Posts 18818
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 16 2015 1:03 PM

Scott Alexander (Logos):
In the meantime I will do some research to see why we're allowed to serve these Bibles freely on biblia.com and not in Proclaim. Thanks for your patience.

I hope the result of that research isn't going to be "oops, we weren't allowed to serve these Bibles freely on biblia.com either and only just discovered this now after you've all been using them freely for years, but we'll have to remove them; sorry."

BibleGateway and others can freely serve all these versions. There must be something about showing limited numbers of verses at a time that makes the Bible copyright owners OK with these sites as "fair use".

Posts 9
Wayne Rugenstein | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 16 2015 8:45 PM

Thanks for the attention to this Scott, I am so very happy to use Proclaim instead of EasyWorship with Powerpoint since I use a Mac and the church we rent uses Windows.  We even got them to switch to their own Proclaim license.

I have no issues with paying for translations since they are normally copywrited works much like our CCLI SongSelect subscription.  I think the "surprise" was the bigger issue.

Thanks again,

Wayne

Scott Alexander (Logos):

All, we have restored the Bibles (to all users) while we work towards a more permanent solution that will work for Proclaim. You can expect email notification before any future changes in this area. I sincerely apologize for the disruption we caused this past weekend. 

Posts 117
Murray W | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 18 2015 12:55 AM

So that's the explanation for no Bible text on Sunday. Thanks for that one. As if our volunteers don't hate Proclaim enough already!

Posts 20
Timothy Martinez | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 18 2015 2:39 PM

I just checked and all the bibles are missing? What is going on? I got a service to prepare for tonight! 

Posts 20
Timothy Martinez | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 18 2015 3:09 PM

It is fixed now

Posts 12
Kristopher Powell | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 19 2015 5:58 AM

Just wanted to add in my displeasure with this change.  Typically I use ESV so it would not effect me on MOST Sundays, but it I need to be able to use other translations when needed.  Our church uses two accoutns, I have one that I create the presentations with and I have a Logos base packages and most of the bibles, but the account we use to present from does not.  This is going to cause a big frustration.  Pretty much every translation I have in print, says right now it that it an be reproducsed for x number of verses "as long as an entire book is not reproduced"    The use of verses in Proclaim would most surely be considered "far use."  So why remove it?  Since Scripture is pulled from the Internet it should be fine.  Please reconsider the position on this, as the reasons to leave Proclaim are beginning to add up.  I've been a happy user for 2 years now, but considering my rate doubled, the downtime i've seen, and now this i'm reconsidering if we will go for a 3rd year.

Posts 22210
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 19 2015 6:12 AM

Have you seen Scott's post at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/102290/708221.aspx#708221 

Posts 4693
Forum MVP
Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 19 2015 7:14 AM

Graham Criddle:

But Scott's post doesn't really address the underlying problem. It is, at best, a sticky plaster on a gaping wound.

Going forward what does a new church do?

Get everyone to buy the versions of the bible that they may wish to use - including for a computer that sits in the sanctuary all week waiting to serve its master?

It should only require one person in the group (presumably the person with the job of adding the bible slides) to 'own the rights' to any publication for the resulting slides to be shared in a usable fashion between group members and to be available to the 'sanctuary computer' for presentation.

Indeed this is the case for every publication other than Bibles - if I prepare a series of slides quoting from Wright (poorly tagged BTW), McGrath (most important work missing BTW) and Calvin (who appears to be an institution); these slides are sharable in their entirety with members of the group. Not one of these authors will be beating a path to either my nor Logo's door to nail a copyright writ to it!

Posts 22210
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 19 2015 7:19 AM

Mike Binks:
But Scott's post doesn't really address the underlying problem. It is, at best, a sticky plaster on a gaping wound.

But it does seem to address Kristopher's issue to which I was responding - apologies for not making that clear

Mike Binks:
It should only require one person in the group (presumably the person with the job of adding the bible slides) to 'own the rights' to any publication for the resulting slides to be shared in a usable fashion between group members and to be available to the 'sanctuary computer' for presentation.

That is what Scott says they are planning to do in the second bullet of his post:

  • We are working on changing our Bible licensing model to support group licenses. If I own a Bible then all members of my group will have access to said Bible. 

Or am I missing your point?

Posts 34
Robert William Dekker | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 19 2015 7:32 AM

I do not even understand WHY this is such a big problem. Proclaim (aka Logos) owns the rights to tons of resources. Many of them are aviailable to anyone with a computer freely. Bible Gateway is one example. Fair use is when a portion of text is being extracted for use elsewhere -- which is EXACTLY what we all do with the Bible versions using Proclaim. How is licensing even an issue here?

My church spends $$ on the Proclaim annual fee, the CCLI license, the Graceway license, and now you want more so that I can project the Bible up front? It seems to me in the final analysis we will be forced to either 

a) pay for each Bible used;

b) type our own passages into Content sides by hand;

c) copy/paste the verses from Bible Gateway into Powerpoint slides, format them, and import them into Proclaim; or

d) leave Proclaim and buy Media Shout or something else that is an easier/less expensive option.

Proclaim, the ball is in your court to keep us. 

Posts 4693
Forum MVP
Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 19 2015 7:38 AM

Graham Criddle:

That is what Scott says they are planning to do in the second bullet of his post:

  • We are working on changing our Bible licensing model to support group licenses. If I own a Bible then all members of my group will have access to said Bible. 

Or am I missing your point?

Only partially :-)

My point being that even without 'group licences' at some time in the indefinable future, 'fair use' should allow sharing of slides if not access to the underlying publication. As is the case with all resources that are in my (Logos) library apart from, it seems, Bibles.

Posts 34
Robert William Dekker | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 19 2015 7:44 AM

True, he does say that. Maybe I am in the teensy tiny minority here, but Proclaim is the only Logos product we use. Nobody owns Bibles under a different username. So if we stay with Proclaim we will have to spend more $$. 

Posts 3
John Kramme | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 20 2015 10:12 PM

Scott Alexander (Logos):
All, we have restored the Bibles (to all users) while we work towards a more permanent solution that will work for Proclaim. You can expect email notification before any future changes in this area. I sincerely apologize for the disruption we caused this past weekend. 

I am still unable to see other versions of Bibles.  I had to purchase 3 versions last week just to make it thru the weekend.  Now, I can't see even the MSG version in the list...

Did they take it away again?

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