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This post has 147 Replies | 16 Followers

Posts 1051
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 10:42 AM

Dear Bob,

I understand why you're going this direction and appreciate the explanation.

Here's an idea that comes from my industry: offer heavy-investors / regular-buyers some type of credit to Logos Now. On Wall Street, we'll give our customers all sorts of products and services that they ask for if they send us a lot of shares to trade. I can't say what the particulars should look like--that's up to you--but can you offer loyalty value to the customers who have supported you the most?

These are my couple of ideas:

  1. If you spend $X per month (perhaps base on a 3 or 6 month rolling average), you get Logos Now complementary or at a steep discount.
  2. You offer a 2 year subscription to books.logos.com with Gold and higher. Offer 2 years of Logos Now with Gold and higher (or whatever level makes sense)

I buy tubs of vanilla ice cream every month. May I please have a complementary scoop of chocolate along with that?

-Bill

Posts 1429
Forum MVP
Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 10:45 AM

The propositional outlines has a price 40 dollars. Should I understand that at some point it will become available as a separate item? I would be happy to pay it now and get it gradually as updates. 

https://www.logos.com/product/51517/old-testament-propositional-bible-outlines-dataset?utm_source=blog.logos.com&utm_medium=blog&utm_content=logosnowannouncement&utm_campaign=promo-logosnowlaunch 

The subscription is not attractive to me for 2 reasons: I don't need the other items in the subscription. Secondly I think there are some additional costs with the overseas payments. 

One more thing: will the Hebrew propositional outlines work with the Hebrew bibles? The examples show English Bibles only.

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 8.1

Posts 6484
Forum MVP
Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 10:55 AM

Veli Voipio:
One more thing: will the Hebrew propositional outlines work with the Hebrew bibles? The examples show English Bibles only.

Everything ever written in Religion and Theology formatted for Logos Bible Software.Logos Youtube Channel

Posts 1993
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 11:09 AM

I don't understand what one gets for the subscription price.  Is it just features within the software, as well as possibly some Lexham resources, or are we talking about other resources?  Surely one can't now, or ever get access to the whole Logos catalog for $8.99 a month.

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 1429
Forum MVP
Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 11:13 AM

Thanks Lynden, looks good!

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 8.1

Posts 21990
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 11:22 AM

Joseph Turner:
I don't understand what one gets for the subscription price.  Is it just features within the software, as well as possibly some Lexham resources, or are we talking about other resources?

Phil explains what we get in the current release at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/103245/713695.aspx#713695 (reproduced below)

What is Logos Now?

  1. It’s a subscription-based service.
  2. It’s content and tools for serious Bible study.
  3. It builds on top of Logos 6.
  4. It’s continually growing and getting regular updates.
  5. It’s access to the future of Logos Bible Software, today.
  6. It's a membership program.

What do you get with Logos Now?

  1. A growing library of data, media, and interactive content.
  2. Early access to new features and tools.
  3. Access to the beta of the new Logos web app.
  4. Special membership benefits such as exclusive offers, special discounts, and more.

What does the first release include?

  1. Old Testament Propositional Bible Outlines (dataset)
  2. Greek Grammatical Constructions (dataset)
  3. Commandments of the Law (interactive)
  4. Visual Copy Templates (media)
  5. Author Slide Templates (media)
  6. Logos Stock Images, vol. 2 (media)
  7. Media Browser (tool)
  8. Concordance (tool)
  9. Access to the beta of the Logos web app
  10. Membership benefits (e.g., exclusive offers, special discounts)

We'll continue to add more value to it over time. More details forthcoming.

Joseph Turner:
Surely one can't now, or ever get access to the whole Logos catalog for $8.99 a month.

No - that isn't what this is about.

From the FAQ page at https://www.logos.com/faq#LogosNow 

Do I need to own a Logos 6 base package to useLogos Now?

Logos 6 Feature Crossgrade, Gold, or higher will provide an optimal experience with Logos Now.

Get Logos 6 Feature Crossgrade

Upgrade to Logos 6 Gold

I already own a base package. Why Logos Now?

Think of Logos Now as an add-on to your Logos 6 base package. A Logos 6 base package is still the best way to build a library of resources you own. Logos Now provides additional value to your library with the latest content, features, datasets, interactives, and media.

Posts 296
Bruce Roth | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 12:17 PM

I completely understand Bob's points in his post as to his reasoning. I was involved in a software company back in the day and we sold a turnkey product to associations where as our competitors sold a full-service product suite that generated recurring revenue. It eventually became apparent that we could only survive by selling new systems on a regular basis or try to pick up customers that generated recurring revenue. We chose to do both. And I saw the impact of that when you had to let staff go if a deal fell through and upset the immediate revenue stream. So I get that.

I sense what the ongoing concern is that one has to be a subscriber in order to gain the benefits of the latest and greatest features that are in the pipeline. And it doesn't seem to be communicated well enough to make one comfortable that these features would be migrated into the next product release so that one could benefit later with these features. So for example I might be real interested in the new Concordance tool. Is there any sense of that appearing in any of the upgrades to version 6 or coming in version 7? Or never?

I think it might be helpful to make some sort of commitment that indeed feature x or feature z will be there eventually for one to purchase as part of the upgrade, say to version 7. But I know that software companies don't want to tip their hands as to what feature is coming next.

I prefer to own my stuff rather than rent, but I understand the direction that is occurring with delivery of media and products. I like that we currently have the option of both but I don't have a warm and fuzzy feeling that it will always be that way. I could see where someday the desktop version becomes static and that the cloud based application will be the app getting attention going forward. And I could see someday that a subscription model could be applied to resources. Not sure how what one owns would be taken into account. Amazon already has something like this started with their Kindle Unlimited where for $9.99 a month you get access to a library of about 700,000 Kindle books. Cancel and your access to them is gone.

I am tempted to try Logos Now but I think I will wait and see what feedback there is and how it grows in features and functionality.

Posts 1429
Forum MVP
Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 1:01 PM

I still hesitate. This reminds me when 30 years ago in Ethiopia if I wanted to buy Coke I had to buy several tomatoes, too. 

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 8.1

Posts 3767
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 2:04 PM

James Hudson:
From what I've read from the Logos Now thread, I have gathered that some features (such as OT propositions and discounts and possibly concordance) are only available for 'subscription' customers. I hope this is only 'early access' as opposed to 'exclusivity'.

That is my understanding: the subscription gets you early access.  Or you can forgo the monthly cost and early use and wait till Logos 7

James Hudson:
If not, how can you claim that you are treating all customers fairly/similarly?

new features that we'd have to wait for are not available earlier.  We all have the choice to pay for Logos Now to get them earlier, rather then wait 2-3 years and pay for it all at once.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 3767
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 2:04 PM

James Hudson:
From what I've read from the Logos Now thread, I have gathered that some features (such as OT propositions and discounts and possibly concordance) are only available for 'subscription' customers. I hope this is only 'early access' as opposed to 'exclusivity'.

That is my understanding: the subscription gets you early access.  Or you can forgo the monthly cost and early use and wait till Logos 7

James Hudson:
If not, how can you claim that you are treating all customers fairly/similarly?

new features that we'd have to wait for are not available earlier.  We all have the choice to pay for Logos Now to get them earlier, rather then wait 2-3 years and pay for it all at once.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 3767
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 2:08 PM

sorry for the double post.  something funky happened with my browser.  I wasn't even finished with my reply . . . 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 185
James Hudson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 3:14 PM

Friedrich:
new features that we'd have to wait for are not available earlier.  We all have the choice to pay for Logos Now to get them earlier, rather then wait 2-3 years and pay for it all at once.

So, technically, they ARE available earlier (ie they have been coded and are currently working with datasets - since they ARE available to subscribers). 

Who made the decision that we have to wait 2-3 years? - that is a deliberate choice of Logos. They could release tomorrow if they wanted - they are deliberately withholding to hook subscribers in. So my contention remains - they are not treating customers as fairly as Bob's OP implies.

PS Thanks for replying and no problem about the double post!

Posts 1691
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 3:19 PM

John Fugh, Jr.:
What happens for the subscriber when the next major release occurs?

We don't even know yet, but in general we try very hard to avoid making you pay twice for the same thing. Of course prices change constantly (as we generally reduce the price of content over time), so it's hard to promise one-to-one credits (otherwise dynamic pricing might require cash refunds -- not a sustainable business model!) but we don't know yet. We don't even know yet all the things that will be in Logos Now before Logos 7 ships.

Posts 1691
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 3:22 PM

SHotchkiss:
What do I get for having bought materials since 2007 or is Logos now a consumable (like ice cream)?

You always get what you bought. (And with Logos, usually more at some point in the future.)

What do you get from Netflix (or Warner Bros.) in exchange for your expensively accumulated VHS (or DVD) library? Nothing. We'll try to do better, but the future is always going to be different than the past, and sometimes the paradigms aren't perfectly compatible. We'll continue -- as we have for 23 years -- to try and do right by all our users.

Posts 1691
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 3:23 PM

mike:
Bob, please elaborate what "perks" would the Logos Now subscribers get?

We're still figuring this out. But it gets to the point that some parts of Logos Now may be things you can't 'buy' because they aren't 'buyable.' (Or at least not easily.) For example, Logos Now may include access to a human search consultant, who will on-demand formulate a specific query for you. That's a service, not a product -- you get access to this service if you subscribe, you don't if you don't. There's no way to buy this as part of Logos 7.

Posts 1691
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 3:24 PM

mike:
Why $8.99 tho? that's a very high price for something soo little

You're looking at the first month's offering in Logos Now. If it's not worth $8.99 /mo to you, you can wait. But we plan to add value to Logos Now every six weeks; by the time Logos 7 ships there will be a lot more value in Logos Now.

Posts 1691
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 3:36 PM

James Hudson:
1. You don't REALLY believe that subscription is what customers want

Actually, I do. You just haven't seen everything we're planning yet -- we're talking about 'Day 1' of a multi-month plan. :-)

James Hudson:
I hope this is only 'early access' as opposed to 'exclusivity'.

For data sets and features, yes, it's early access. But 'early access' isn't the whole (or even primary) message -- again, we're just getting started. Some things may be exclusive, but for good reasons, like my (hypothetical) example of access to a human search consultant who helps you formulate a specific complex query.

James Hudson:
I think what you are really offering is your true hidden agenda of moving to a 'Software as A Service' model.

I think what you are really doing is accusing me of lying, and that just seems rude. We don't have a hidden agenda. My post explains all the financial and business reasoning, and talks about past difficulties with rent and payroll. Is that the communication of a company with a 'hidden agenda'? We are completely transparent. I'll try again to say it with nothing hidden:

- We love selling things and getting paid all at once. Many people also buy and incur very little follow-on costs. We make money and we are all happy.

- Some people buy once and are active users who incur on-going costs for support, maintenance, server hosting, and more. They don't need 'more books' and so they don't buy upgrades because they "already have what I need, if you'll just do a free update of the mobile app and support Windows 11." We're glad these people are enthusiastic Bible students, but these people make us less money, and we'd love to find a way to incentivize (not require) them to pay us $8.99 / month. We intend to make Logos Now such a compelling offer that you voluntarily subscribe because it's a such a good deal, even if you hate subscriptions. We plan to bribe you with goodness and value. (Is that the 'hidden agenda' you feared? At least it's a benevolent, generous one.)

- Other people want to rent everything, and prefer low-cost on-demand access to large libraries of material that they can turn off/on at their discretion in order to manage cash or get access to more than they'd like. These are Netflix / Spotify / Amazon Prime / Uber users and we plan to serve them also, because they'll help us generate more revenue.

Posts 1691
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 3:42 PM

Denise:
And quite frankly this rental thing is another attempt at forcing .... they know very well what they'll later sell or not.

I am flattered that you think us clairvoyant, :-), but sadly we don't know the future. We weren't sure what would finally be in Logos 6 till just a few months before release (weeks, for some parts), and certainly aren't sure what will be in Logos Now six months from now, let alone in Logos 7 whenever it ships.

It's a pretty good guess that we'll offer for sale and outright purchase anything that's a complete, definable data set or resource. It's unlikely we'll offer for sale something that's a service, or a fluid database that's frequently maintained and updated. If we can call it 'done' and calculate its final cost, then we can price and sell it. If it's something that will never be done (curating online media at ever-changing third-party sites and tagging it with Preaching Themes?) then we'll likely only offer it by subscription. Likewise for something that's fundamentally a service, like a human-backed feature.

Posts 1691
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 3:48 PM

James Hudson:
Who made the decision that we have to wait 2-3 years?

James Hudson:
They could release tomorrow if they wanted - they are deliberately withholding to hook subscribers in.

Yes, like almost every package software company ever, we bundle improvements together into major releases. This is true of cars, too -- they didn't ship the new stereo the week they created it, they waited till the next model year and bundled it with engine improvements, style changes, and new paint colors.

It helps motivate upgrades, and it is simply more efficient than shipping (and trying to price and sell) tiny upgrades every week. We had complaints when Logos 6 was only two years after Logos 5 that it was 'too soon.' People don't like the frequency of free bug-fix downloads; I imagine many users would be even unhappier if we tried to sell them a minor new feature every six weeks, and the pricing / combinations / complexity would be mind-boggling.

Posts 8974
Forum MVP
Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 3:53 PM

Bob Pritchett:
We intend to make Logos Now such a compelling offer that you voluntarily subscribe because it's a such a good deal, even if you hate subscriptions.

That's a great goal and shows your commitment to making Logos Now even more appealing in the months ahead.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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