Logos 6 Bible word study vs lexicon

Page 1 of 2 (30 items) 1 2 Next >
This post has 29 Replies | 6 Followers

Posts 17
Jason goebel | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Apr 21 2015 9:43 PM

Tired of always calling customer service and their answer to everything "i dont know, check the forums or purchase training"  I think i have given them enough of my money and just want to know how to use what i purchased?  Anyways enough of my rant, here is my question that i hope i will get an answer on.

What is the difference between doing a Bible word study(sense search)  on a particular word vs opening up a

lexicon such as bdag and researching the word that way?  For an example saying you want to know the meaning of the work beginning in Revelation 3:14 Is it more accurate to find out the meaning with Bible word study or through the lexicon?  And what is the advantages between the two?  I talk to alot of Jehova's Witness' and they try and twist scripture to show their theology such as this verse they try and show that Jesus had a beginning until we find out what the greek word meant. :) 

Any feedback is much appreciated.  Thank you

Posts 36052
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 21 2015 10:44 PM

Jason goebel:

Tired of always calling customer service and their answer to everything "i dont know, check the forums or purchase training"  I think i have given them enough of my money and just want to know how to use what i purchased?  Anyways enough of my rant, here is my question that i hope i will get an answer on.

What is the difference between doing a Bible word study(sense search)  on a particular word vs opening up a lexicon.

You are correct that customer service is for software problems not for training. The forums tend to be a better place to ask questions such as this. However, without knowing something of your education, especially language studies and linguistics, I'm not sure how to answer. A lexicon is basically a dictionary with glosses and notes reflecting the best of the state of knowledge as evaluated by the authors at the time it is printed. A word study allows you to see the nuances of the words meaning and use across time, genres, etc.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 13428
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 22 2015 3:35 AM

Jason goebel:

What is the difference between doing a Bible word study(sense search)  on a particular word vs opening up a lexicon such as bdag and researching the word that way?

The word "beginning" in Revelation 3:14 is ἀρχή.

The senses section of the Bible Word Study shows you what sense ἀρχή has in the New Testament. It's useful because if you click on the chart, it will actually list those senses, so you can compare them if you want. In this case you can see that sometimes it takes the sense of "ruler (supernatural)", or "ruler", in addition to senses similar to "beginning". (Bear in mind that those senses have been chosen by an editor - they're judgement decisions, and he could be wrong). But you could click those segments, to discover more. For example, if you click on "ruler (supernatural)", you'll see that the context of those verses strongly points to that sense. All but one of the verses also mention "authorities", and the other mentions "angels". You could use that information to conclude that for ἀρχή to take the sense of "ruler (supernatural)", it really needs some immediate context regarding spiritual beings. The sense "ruler" is very similar. There the context is one of authorities. I'd conclude that I should really translate ἀρχή as "ruler" unless there was some context to do with dominion, or authorities, and so on.

A lexicon, on the other hand, will give you formal definitions of words, and examples where they are used. But a lexicon won't often give you hints as to what contextual clues might lead you to choose one meaning over another. 

In other words the advantage of lexicons is that they are more authoritative and definitive. The advantage of the "senses" section of the BWS is that it helps you be more contextually aware.

This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!

Posts 2728
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 22 2015 9:07 AM

Steve Ronge just posted a great 3 minute video about word studies and Sense. https://today.faithlife.com/2015/04/21/the-peril-of-bible-word-studies-a-visualization-of-matthew-99-13/ 

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 17
Jason goebel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 22 2015 11:48 AM

Mark, if the lexicon is more authoritative and the word sense is more opinionated, can the lexicon give you a clear black and white answer as to what the actual greek word means? example the word beginning has several different meanings so will the lexicon tell you what the exact meaning is in that specific verse?  And if not how can i come to that conclusion? 

Posts 934
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 22 2015 12:48 PM

The difference between opening a single lexicon and running a word study is that the first option shows you what one resource has to say about a word and the second option effectively shows you what your entire library (or at least all resources with the appropriate tagging) has to say about a word.  A word study should pull up every lexicon you have that has an entry for the word. It also gives you additional information about how the word is translated in your English Bible, what Hebrew words it translates (if studying a Greek word), provides information about related words, and gives a launching point to search various sub-sections of your library for all occurrences of the word. In other words, if you want something that is quick, open a lexicon. If you want to spend more time with it and possibly go off on some tangents, open a word study. 

Posts 17
Jason goebel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 22 2015 12:57 PM

ok, based on what i'm doing would you recommend that i purchase the bdag/halo lexicon bundle? i saw an example on the bdag and thought that was a very good lexicon? Do you think its worth it for what i'm doing to but the bdag? or is the word study good enough?  The deeper my study the better as long as i know how to use it.. lol

Posts 2728
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 22 2015 12:59 PM

Jason goebel:

can the lexicon give you a clear black and white answer as to what the actual greek word means?

The actual Greek word may have several meanings.

Jason goebel:

example the word beginning has several different meanings so will the lexicon tell you what the exact meaning is in that specific verse?

BDAG cites their choice of how the author is using the word, see the 3rd of the 7 possible meanings of ἀρχὴ

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 36052
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 22 2015 1:02 PM

Jason goebel:

Mark, if the lexicon is more authoritative and the word sense is more opinionated, can the lexicon give you a clear black and white answer as to what the actual greek word means? example the word beginning has several different meanings so will the lexicon tell you what the exact meaning is in that specific verse?  And if not how can i come to that conclusion? 

First, I would strongly disagree with the idea that a lexicon is authoritative and definitive. Remember that a lexicon is giving you glosses in a second a language. You can never really understand the nuances of the meaning of a word until you can easily use a dictionary in that language. A lexicon represents the best of current scholarly knowledge and the best of the imperfect job of translating Greek words into English words ... such mapping are always imperfect. A lexicon focuses on what English word you would translate the Greek word as.

Second, a word study focuses on learning the meaning of the word in the context of its own language - the same way native speakers of the language learn the meaning. However, it uses a number of tricks from the field of linguistics to help you glean the meaning more quickly i.e. you look at the word in context through a number of different lenses to pick up particular elements of meaning and use. It focuses on what a Greek word meant to a Greek person at a particular time.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 13428
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 22 2015 2:53 PM

Jason goebel:

Mark, if the lexicon is more authoritative and the word sense is more opinionated, can the lexicon give you a clear black and white answer as to what the actual greek word means? example the word beginning has several different meanings so will the lexicon tell you what the exact meaning is in that specific verse?  And if not how can i come to that conclusion? 

No, a lexicon won't provide the exact meaning in that specific verse, although sometimes a lexicon might use your verse as an example usage, (as BDAG does in this case).

Jason goebel:

ok, based on what i'm doing would you recommend that i purchase the bdag/halo lexicon bundle? i saw an example on the bdag and thought that was a very good lexicon? Do you think its worth it for what i'm doing to but the bdag? or is the word study good enough?  The deeper my study the better as long as i know how to use it.. lol

Personally, I wouldn't recommend BDAG to you, because it does take some getting used to, and is best for those with some Greek training. I think you may be better off with the Lexham Theological Wordbook, which you probably already own. It explains words, rather than simply defining them, and I think that's more of what you're looking for. Here's the entry on ἀρχή:

Occurring 130 times in the NT, the word archē always carries a sense of primacy; it can denote primacy of time (e.g., “beginning”) or primacy in authority (e.g., “ruler”). The noun archē often occurs along with the word ἐξουσία (exousia, “authority”) in the NT when it has the sense of “dominion.” For example, Luke 12:11 and Titus 3:1 use archē and exousia to denote governmental authorities, while Eph 6:12 uses the pair of terms to refer to spiritual forces at work in the heavenly realms (compare Eph 3:10). In the Septuagint, the word frequently refers to dominion and power as it is expressed in official positions of leadership (Gen 4:13, 1 Chr 26:10; Neh 9:17). The related masculine noun, ἄρχων (archōn) appears frequently in the NT. Its basic meaning is “ruler,” “lord,” or “prince.” In the NT, it can be applied to earthly authority (Acts 4:26), evil spirits (Matt 9:34), or Christ himself (Rev 1:5). It can also suggest a lower-level administrative leader or official (Matt 9:18; Acts 16:19). Matthew 12:24 refers to Beelzebul as the archōn of the demons.

This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!

Posts 13428
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 22 2015 2:57 PM

MJ. Smith:
First, I would strongly disagree with the idea that a lexicon is authoritative and definitive.

I said more authoritative and definitive (in relation to the senses database).

MJ. Smith:
A lexicon focuses on what English word you would translate the Greek word as.

That's true for the simple lexicons, but BDAG spends more time on usage than translation, as do some other lexicons.

This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!

Posts 1589
Rick Ausdahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 22 2015 3:10 PM

Jason goebel:

ok, based on what i'm doing would you recommend that i purchase the bdag/halo lexicon bundle? i saw an example on the bdag and thought that was a very good lexicon? Do you think its worth it for what i'm doing to but the bdag? or is the word study good enough?  The deeper my study the better as long as i know how to use it.. lol

Jason,

I'm still pretty wet behind the ears regarding Logos and even more so when it comes to studying the original languages, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt.  If you expect your word studies to focus mainly on N.T. Greek, I wonder if A Dictionary of Biblical Languages w/ Semantic Domains: Greek (NT) for $29.95 along with the word senses provided by Logos would meet your need.  There are also Hebrew and Aramaic versions of this dictionary.

Here's an example from the Greek version.

Another resource considerably less expensive than the $150 BDAG that might be useful is the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains for $35.95.  Here's an example from that.

Posts 36052
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 22 2015 3:14 PM

Mark Barnes:

That's true for the simple lexicons, but BDAG spends more time on usage than translation, as do some other lexicons.

It's still in English not Greek Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1008
Josh Hunt | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 22 2015 4:15 PM

This is the thing that sold me on logos. the graph below is from the word "practice" in this verse  

Share with God’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality. Romans 12:13 (NIV84)  As you can see, in most cases it is translated "persicute." With this insight in hand, you can chase down exactly what the word means.

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 22 2015 9:09 PM

Mark Barnes:
No, a lexicon won't provide the exact meaning in that specific verse, although sometimes a lexicon might use your verse as an example usage, (as BDAG does in this case).

Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament has an English semantic synopsis for every Greek word used in the New Testament..  Noticed ἀρχή has eight Louw-Nida (LN) semantic domains, including 89.16 for Revelation 3:14

For LN numbering, the preface includes scholarly age plus mistakes are inevitable:

     Initial work on this lexicon began in the summer of 1972, and the editorial team consisted of Johannes P. Louw of the University of Pretoria in South Africa, Eugene A. Nida of the American Bible Society and the United Bible Societies, and Rondal B. Smith, then of Lincoln Christian College and at present with the Pioneer Bible Translators. In view of other commitments, however, Professor Smith was not able to continue until the end of the editorial processes. Karen A. Munson, who made important contributions to the editorial procedures of the Greek New Testament published by the United Bible Societies, has served throughout the project as an associate editor.
     The procedures employed in the development of this Greek New Testament lexicon have been of four principal types: (1) the classification of meanings of the New Testament vocabulary into domains and subdomains, based on a dictionary published by the United Bible Societies and edited by Barclay M. Newman; (2) a verification of these meanings, as well as the addition of other meanings of lexical items based on a careful study of Greek New Testament concordances and dictionaries; (3) the preparation of definitions and notes (both those for translators, included in the text, and for linguists and lexicographers, in footnotes); and (4) final editing, cross referencing, and indexing, as well as proofreading. Responsibility for the first procedure rested with the editorial committee of Louw, Nida, and Smith, while the second procedure was carried out by Louw and Smith, with major responsibility resting with Louw. The third procedure was carried out by Nida in close consultation with Louw, and the fourth procedure was the responsibility of Louw and his staff (in particular Stienie Venter, Willem Oliver, and Tienie Bosman assisted by Wessel Venter) at the University of Pretoria, with additional assistance from Karen Munson, who has been responsible for the preparation of the manuscript at various stages.
     In a publication as extensive and complex as this Greek New Testament lexicon, it is inevitable that certain matters will be overlooked and some mistakes will be made. Accordingly, plans have been made for the publication in subsequent editions of both errata and addenda. Since the dictionary is computerized, corrections can be readily introduced. The editors will be particularly thankful for help from any person using this lexicon who can provide assistance in noting mistakes and oversights.
     The editors sincerely hope that this lexicon will be of real service to biblical scholars, students, and New Testament translators, as well as to semanticists and lexicographers, since this is the first time that such a large body of lexical data has been submitted to careful analysis and organization into semantic domains.


1987 Johannes P. Louw and Eugene A. Nida


Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.). New York: United Bible Societies.

Another Greek grammar point to consider is the use of the definitive article with the verb εἰμὶ (to be).  Searched a collection of Grammar resources for:

(article,articular) WITHIN 11 WORDS εἰμὶ

Reading reference grammar provided reason to search for:

Sabellianism

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 171
Jerome Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 23 2015 7:55 PM

Because of my own interests in refuting Jehovah's Witnesses interpretations of Revelation 3:14, I placed a note at this verse in my book, The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, which explains the Greek text underlying the KJV rendering, "the beginning of the creation of God." In my note I call attention not only to the lexical issue, the meaning of the word, but more important here, the grammatical issue involved. I also cite at length the discussion of Gebhardt on this text from his great work, The Doctrine of the Apocalypse. My note at Revelation 3:14 occupies more than a full column of text, so it furnishes more information than you are likely to find in any other single reference work.

I think that my book, The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, comes as part of all the base packages of Logos 6, but if not, it is available for separate purchase from Logos for about thirty dollars.

Posts 17
Jason goebel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 23 2015 11:55 PM

Jerome Smith:

Because of my own interests in refuting Jehovah's Witnesses interpretations of Revelation 3:14, I placed a note at this verse in my book, The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, which explains the Greek text underlying the KJV rendering, "the beginning of the creation of God." In my note I call attention not only to the lexical issue, the meaning of the word, but more important here, the grammatical issue involved. I also cite at length the discussion of Gebhardt on this text from his great work, The Doctrine of the Apocalypse. My note at Revelation 3:14 occupies more than a full column of text, so it furnishes more information than you are likely to find in any other single reference work.

I think that my book, The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, comes as part of all the base packages of Logos 6, but if not, it is available for separate purchase from Logos for about thirty dollars.

Thanks Jerome, i have the old one, but not The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge.  How different is the New one?

Posts 171
Jerome Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 25 2015 8:08 AM

The new one is far more complete than the old one. I retained all the original Treasury of Scripture Knowledge cross references, and most of its notes (I left out a few because the publisher became very concerned about the length of the book!). I restored notes left out of the original Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, adding them in from Bagster's Comprehensive Bible, where almost all the notes and cross references in the original Treasury of Scripture Knowledge came from. I added seven indexes to the work, and made hundreds of corrections to errors present in the original cross references. I made the corrections by comparing them against Thomas Scott's six volume commentary, both the London edition and the American edition, as well as from my own use of the original Treasury of Scripture Knowledge (I kept a record of the errors I found in the flyleaf of my copy for many years). I added more cross references from Young's Concise Critical Commentary, also the Commentary Wholly Biblical, and for the New Testament in particular, from The New Testament with Fuller References. To all that I added cross references from my then over 26 years of careful research and Bible study, references I carefully collected in the wide margins of several of my reference Bibles. I also added in all the figures of speech found in Bullinger's Figures of Speech Used in the Bible (which Baker Book House put back into print at my suggestion) and carefully supplemented those from the margins of the Companion Bible and from his other writings. In the process I made many corrections to the works which I consulted, and sometimes found it necessary to correct their mistaken positions, as well as their printing errors. I fully addressed the positions taken by the Watchtower because several of the pupils in my high school Sunday school class were being actively visited by its local representatives, and my pupils asked for help. I furnished a rather complete subject index entry which points to where all my notes and references on this theme will be found.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 25 2015 10:04 AM

Mark Barnes:
A lexicon, on the other hand, will give you formal definitions of words, and examples where they are used. But a lexicon won't often give you hints as to what contextual clues might lead you to choose one meaning over another

I disagree.  The lexicon entries definitely indicate the context in which words are used.  You will need to do a little work yourself and check the entries under each category to see what is common in the usage in each sense.  It doesn't spoon-feed you the information.  If that is what you want, use a translation.  Once you have surveyed the manner in which a word is used in each sense, you will then be able to draw a conclusion regarding how it is used in any specific passage.  I never use BWS—I think it is useless and dangerous since you begin to think you know something of which you are ignorant.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 171
Jerome Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 25 2015 2:40 PM

Here is the link to the Logos edition of my book, The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge:

https://www.logos.com/product/1214/the-new-treasury-of-scripture-knowledge

Someone (David and Allison Preston) have posted there, "Don't buy this book. It is part of the packages." That may be true, but I have some reasons to question that. The original Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, the nineteenth century work I vastly expanded, seems to be included. I hope my book is too. But some screen shots I've seen reproduced on this forum appear to show the older work, but not mine, under "Cross References" in the left column of the page displayed.

Perhaps someone here who knows for sure that my work, The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge, is included in the base packages can confirm that to be so, or to the contrary, indicate that my work must be purchased separately.

The publisher's description, reproduced by Logos at the link above, states my work contains 100,000 references. That is an error. I have added at least 100,000 references to the original work. The number is likely to be far higher. The Bible contains 30,000 verses. Adding 100,000 references would amount to an average of just over 3 new references per verse. Of course, some verses I added no new references to, but most verses I added not only more references to the existing keywords, but added more keywords for the verse and carefully sorted the former references to the appropriate keywords more accurately.

It took me one year extra to add in the figures of speech everywhere they occur. That alone adds many new references not there before.

I did a thorough presentation, a full induction of all the Biblical evidence, for such terms as soul, spirit, hell, grave, and categorized them and provided references at every occurrence of these words to the full induction of the evidence given in my new notes, starting at Genesis 2:7. That adds many new cross references.

I developed a "Topic Number Index" which contains nearly 2000 topics, each given a number, similar to the Thompson Chain Reference Bible, but my list of topics is not as complete. I derived the core of my topical  references from Charles Simmons, A Scripture Manual, 1850, but added many topics beyond what he gave. But for each key verse used for a central reference point listing of cross references to a topic, I give the topic number, and a full set of cross references to that topic in the Bible. This, of course, added many new references beyond those already mentioned.

I trust that my added input regarding some of the history behind my creation of The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge will encourage those of you interested in Bible study to make greater use of this resource.

I am currently preparing a new even more complete cross reference Bible study resource. I have presented snippets of some of my new material at my website, www.realbiblestudy.com, where I discuss cross reference Bible study in more detail and answer Bible questions. My new work is not done yet. I just completed Psalm 14 this afternoon. I have finished the New Testament; went back and re-did Genesis 1 through Psalm 14; I have finished Isaiah through to the end of the Old Testament. It will take a while to finish, but I am making progress each day the Lord provides.

Page 1 of 2 (30 items) 1 2 Next > | RSS