[ACK] A question about "Stimulus tagging"

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Apr 23 2015 3:45 PM

In the example below why is "A Sinner" shown as the Stimulus?

There doesn't seem to be anything in the highlighted results which suggest that the "Sinner" was the stimulus for anything - or I am misunderstanding what this means?

Thanks, Graham 

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 28 2015 1:00 AM

And a similar question relates to the Benefactor section where three beneficients are shown of the same clause

What is this trying to indicate?

Thanks, Graham 

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Eli Evans (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 30 2015 10:07 AM

Hi, Graham. 

Sorry we haven't responded by now. I suspect the data experts in Sean's department are busy getting their talks ready for BibleTech. Smile

I've asked someone from over there to follow up as soon as they can. Thanks!

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 30 2015 10:19 AM

Thanks Eli

Appreciated, Graham 

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Jimmy Parks | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 30 2015 11:20 AM

The clause participants section of the bible word study lists every participant and the semantic role (or grammatical role, if that information is selected) in the main clause. The main clause is the clause highest in the hierarchy of the syntax diagram for that verse.

Romans 4:5 contains several subordinate clauses within one overarching main clause in the Cascadia Syntax diagram. The participants listed in the clause participants section are all of the participants in Romans 4:5, not just those participants found in the subordinate clause where δικαιοω is the main verb.

So the participants listed as Stimulus are derived from the participants for the verb πιστευω. The participants listed as benefactive are derived from the participants of the verb λογιζομαι. And δικαιοω (the verb you did the initial word study on) selects an agent and a patient in this verse. 

If you want to find the semantic roles of a particular verb, all you need to do is look in the Case Frames section of the bible word study (this is found just below the clause participant section). This section will provide the semantic roles available for the verb of the search and provide a list of the verses where the verb occurs with each pattern of semantic role (Agent-Patient, Agent, etc.)

Hope this helps.

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Eli Evans (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 30 2015 1:28 PM

Thanks, Jimmy!

Sounds like the data is correct. Is it then possible that it's a software bug that we are selecting the participants from the parent clause when the BWS is run on the verb of the subordinate clause? Given your description, these results seem wrong for δικαιοω. (If yes, I'll file it as a bug.)

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 30 2015 11:39 PM

Hi Jimmy

Jimmy Parks:

The clause participants section of the bible word study lists every participant and the semantic role (or grammatical role, if that information is selected) in the main clause. The main clause is the clause highest in the hierarchy of the syntax diagram for that verse.

Thanks for this - it clarifies a lot but is certainly not what I expected.

Jimmy Parks:
If you want to find the semantic roles of a particular verb, all you need to do is look in the Case Frames section of the bible word study (this is found just below the clause participant section). This section will provide the semantic roles available for the verb of the search and provide a list of the verses where the verb occurs with each pattern of semantic role (Agent-Patient, Agent, etc.)

I see what you mean - and looking at Case Frames does provide clarity - but I am surprised it is required.

Eli Evans:
Sounds like the data is correct. Is it then possible that it's a software bug that we are selecting the participants from the parent clause when the BWS is run on the verb of the subordinate clause? Given your description, these results seem wrong for δικαιοω. (If yes, I'll file it as a bug.)

Thanks Eli - it does sound like a bug to me. Very interested to know if this is what is concluded or whether I need to remember to use both sections together as suggested by Jimmy.

Thanks both, Graham 

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 1 2015 1:22 AM

Jimmy Parks:
The clause participants section of the bible word study lists every participant and the semantic role (or grammatical role, if that information is selected) in the main clause

(My bolding)

Looking into this further it seems that in the grammatical role, subject and object information etc is linked to the "sub-clause" containing the verb instead of a main clause. So, for example, there is only one Subject (God) shown against Romans 4:5 and it is linked to the verb  δικαιοω.

So it seems to function differently in the different roles - unless I am missing something.

And is this issue related to the one discussed at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/104153/720063.aspx at all?

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 1 2015 3:24 AM

Jimmy Parks:
If you want to find the semantic roles of a particular verb, all you need to do is look in the Case Frames section of the bible word study (this is found just below the clause participant section). This section will provide the semantic roles available for the verb of the search and provide a list of the verses where the verb occurs with each pattern of semantic role (Agent-Patient, Agent, etc.)

One further challenge is that this approach - checking the Case Frames section - doesn't (understandably) work for nouns

So in the example below I don't think Paul should be reckoned as an "Experiencer of the kingdom" in Galatians 5 but there is no mechanism within the Guide to explore this further.

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Hi Graham:

I apologize for the confusion here. This is a bug, and as I understand it, it is related to the problems with search results mentioned in the other forum post. We are looking at potential solutions at this stage.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 4 2015 9:08 AM

Thanks Jeremy

Appreciate the update

Graham 

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Eli Evans (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 4 2015 9:46 AM

Reported as a bug, thanks everyone.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 27 2015 3:35 AM

Jeremy Thompson:

Hi Graham:

I apologize for the confusion here. This is a bug, and as I understand it, it is related to the problems with search results mentioned in the other forum post. We are looking at potential solutions at this stage.

Hi Jeremy

Any update on this?

Thanks, Graham 

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Hi Graham:

Thanks for following up. I know at this stage that a case has been created for the desktop team. And, I'm trying to find you something firmer than that, but wanted to make sure you knew I got your question.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 29 2015 2:32 PM

Thanks Jeremy

Appreciate the acknowledgment .

Graham

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Angela Murashov | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 27 2015 10:07 AM

This should be fixed in 6.5 Beta 4. 

Fixed bug causing incorrect results in Clause Participants section.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 28 2015 10:32 AM

Angela Murashov:

This should be fixed in 6.5 Beta 4. 

Fixed bug causing incorrect results in Clause Participants section.

Thanks Angela and others - but looking at the changed results I am still confused!

Under 6.4 SR3 (as above) I get the results shown in the screenshot below:

With 6.5 beta 4 I get

Couple of questions / observations:

  1. I would have expected the "Benefactive 'A Sinner'" and the "Stimulus God" shown in the first screenshot to still be present
  2. The options to run a clause search from the BWS has been removed. Was this intentional?

Any thoughts appreciated

Thanks, Graham 

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Scott Fleischman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 28 2015 11:20 AM

Hi Graham,

In general, I changed the clause participants section to return biblical people/places/things that directly have the semantic role (patient, agent, benefactive, etc.) This gives results that make much more sense.

Graham Criddle:
I would have expected the "Benefactive 'A Sinner'" and the "Stimulus God" shown in the first screenshot to still be present

The answer to this is complicated because previously we were returning indirect entities as results. So if there was an entity in any part of a large argument, then that entity would be returned for the whole. That was confusing and not really correct. It's much harder to explain what the previous code was doing for this reason.

Semantic roles are an attribute of an argument for a verb. So when we talk about "Benefactive 'A Sinner'" we need to know for what verb 'A Sinner' is considered to have the Benefactive role. In this case, the Benefactive argument is all of "the one who does not work but trust in God who justifies the ungodly" and the verb is "credited" (λογίζομαι). Buried in the argument is 'A Sinner' ("ungodly") and the verb δικαιόω, but the argument as a whole does not refer to 'A Sinner' but instead to "the one...", which we call "Faithful People". So "Faithful People" are the real Benefactive for "credited", not "A Sinner".

So it makes sense that we are not returning "A Sinner" as a benefactive with the verb δικαιόω anymore; in fact, the previous results really didn't make sense. In the current beta, you should see the exact same roles as you do for case frames on a verb. Case frames for δικαιόω shows only combination of Agent and Patient, and so now you only see With Patient... and With Agent... in clause participants.

Graham Criddle:
The options to run a clause search from the BWS has been removed. Was this intentional?

The link is still there for verbs. For nouns and other non-verb lemmas, clause search cannot replicate the exact results that the clause participants section returns, so we have removed the link.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 28 2015 1:48 PM

Hi Scott

Scott Fleischman:
Semantic roles are an attribute of an argument for a verb. So when we talk about "Benefactive 'A Sinner'" we need to know for what verb 'A Sinner' is considered to have the Benefactive role. In this case, the Benefactive argument is all of "the one who does not work but trust in God who justifies the ungodly" and the verb is "credited" (λογίζομαι). Buried in the argument is 'A Sinner' ("ungodly") and the verb δικαιόω, but the argument as a whole does not refer to 'A Sinner' but instead to "the one...", which we call "Faithful People". So "Faithful People" are the real Benefactive for "credited", not "A Sinner".

Many thanks - this makes a lot of sense and is much clearer.

Scott Fleischman:
The link is still there for verbs. For nouns and other non-verb lemmas, clause search cannot replicate the exact results that the clause participants section returns, so we have removed the link.

Thanks again - I missed the link when I checked earlier but see it now.

Appreciated, Graham 

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