Do you want every ebook in the world in Logos?

Page 7 of 20 (395 items) « First ... < Previous 5 6 7 8 9 Next > ... Last »
This post has 394 Replies | 12 Followers

Posts 5249
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 19 2015 9:23 PM

Alain Maashe:

This would only show that the company mission's is not to serve God but to worship mammon and the profits its bring (or are we getting possibly exposed erotica for research into human depravity?).

Just image the possible legacy summarized by statements such as , "I became hooked on pornography and extramarital affairs after discovering this erotica series through Faithlife (or whatever store front)." What a testimony. and no, the excuse, I was just the electronic distributor will not do anymore that I was just the drug-dealer and it was not even my main business venture.

Because Faithlife (Logos) began with a mission to serve the Church, it is held to a different standard than the one applied to Amazon for example that has never pretended to be Christian. 1 Cor 5:9-13 would apply here.

First and foremost Faithlife is a business. If it were a "Mission to serve the Church" we would have much cheaper products and in general things would be added as needed and not in a pre-pub system. Bob is a Christian, Faithlife is a company offering Christian offerings but not necessarily a company run on Christian principles (sharing as any had need, giving all away). I do not believe it would be fair to say Bob is after filthy lucre. He seems more than happy to reinvest in products to outreach to people (faithlife study bible suite). I do not believe any publisher Bob is hoping to pursue is a primarily a pornography publisher. These companies may offer works that are borderline pornography but one pastor requested 50 shades of grey as an outreach tool. People with pornography addictions can find it anywhere.. indeed some would easily find it in the Bible in Song of Solomon and other more erotic passages of scripture. To suggest that one may develop a porn addiction from a broader offering in Logos offerings seems misleading.. I will admit I have not read them but "Christian romance novels" which are offered in Vyrso could lead some twisted souls to lust... that doesn't mean they should not be offered. Bob is doing his best to migrate Logos into broadening the offerings. I am not saying every work he offers will be worth getting but please take some responsibility. You enter a corner store where pornography is for sale and manage to not purchase it. Now a Christian corner store maybe assume to not carry it, but if they were told you cannot cary sports illustrated time magazine and christianity today without carrying playboy that might be an acceptable compromise in the store owners mind. He may send back every copy of PB to the publisher never selling one. If he can offer every book Amazon offers it will be a great blessing.The objectionable material will be a small minority and I do not think Bob would ever knowing have a book promoted that was questionable (you will never likely see get 50% off 50 shades of Grey on your Logos homepage) but because somewhere you have this you well may get thousands of Christian books you would greatly desire. You may well see it as a deal with the devil.... but I do not... every time there is a massive fund raiser in an organization there is a temptation for someone to embezzle money. We do not stop fundraisers because it puts some at a great temptation. I apologize for my rambling but while I can see some disadvantages to this I see them mostly as a tempest in a teapot. Heck I even know of Mormon owned restaurants that serve alcohol.

-Dan

Posts 94
Rokas | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 19 2015 10:25 PM

Dan Francis:

Heck I even know of Mormon owned restaurants that serve alcohol.

Well, they sin then. You cannot make your sin not-sin by giving examples of others who sin. It's not God's standard.

Selling erotica is a sin.

Pushing Bob into selling erotica is also a sin.

Posts 94
Rokas | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 19 2015 10:27 PM

Jan Krohn:

So what about erotic literature that's included in the catalogues? I personally don't care. I don't read it, but I'm not offended by it either. Everyone who is, should take themselves a pair of scissors, and cut the Song of Solomon out of their Bible....

Well, if you would have ever read it, you wouldn't be putting God's Word and that dirt into the same box.

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 19 2015 11:00 PM

For those concerned ... we have no intention of abandoning our focus on the church. Ironically, at the very founding of Logos we imagined being a more general consumer software company, and Logos Bible Software was just one of our planned products. (We always intended to do what became NoteScraps!) 

We named the company Logos Research Systems, Inc., and thought it would be known as LRS.

Since then we've focused on Bible software (though we did NoteScraps, because I wanted it -- I use it daily!). And within the past year we re-named the company "Faithlife".

I think it's safe to say we're 'not becoming Harvard.' We're focused on serving the church.

With that said... new information: while every publisher has different rules, it looks like we may be able to get a contract if we agree to distribute just 90% of a publisher's catalog. This would let us not offer the 10% least appropriate / most objectionable content. I'm hoping this will solve the problem. 

Based on feedback here, I am leaning towards offering the broad library at a completely different storefront. We'd remove the most objectionable content (note: while we'd put in a category filter, if possible, we'd probably end up doing some of this the day after it automatically appeared in the feed) and design the store to showcase the most relevant material to our users. The primary goal, of course, wouldn't even be new customers (unlikely anyway -- Amazon is almost unassailable in the general market). The goal would be to have a pool of resources we could use to meet your needs and requests, and those of the Christian colleges and seminaries we're hoping to serve, ensuring every title a pastor or student could need was available in one platform.

Posts 5249
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 19 2015 11:14 PM

Rokas:

Selling erotica is a sin.

Pushing Bob into selling erotica is also a sin.

I am not trying to push him to do anything... nor is Bob's goal to sell erotica... his goal is to gain the widest selection of Christian books to do that he may have to end up selling every book a publisher offers. I am a sinner without doubt (but I strive through God's grace to not sin and to turn around to Christ when I do), but I do not believe I sin here (but then again I see nothing wrong with serving beer and wine in a restaurant and obvious they see no issues either). I do thank you for your concern and perhaps Bob will decide this is not the right direction for him to pursue. But to me saying Bob is going to be selling erotica is like saying pharmacist is selling meth. A responsible shop owner is only able to do so much to stop abuse of their products. They should never encourage wrong doing, perhaps Bob could set up a behind the counter thing... [WARNING this book is intended for a mature audience and may not be suitable for all readers] I do not know the answer but until I hear you are promoting a boycott of Amazon.com and other book retailers I am not going to take this too serious.

-Dan

Posts 1506
Forum MVP
Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 19 2015 11:16 PM

Bob Pritchett:

With that said... new information: while every publisher has different rules, it looks like we may be able to get a contract if we agree to distribute just 90% of a publisher's catalog. This would let us not offer the 10% least appropriate / most objectionable content. I'm hoping this will solve the problem. 

This is great news, Bob. I was actually thinking of proposing trying to work out something like this, as most publishers would be happy to do that as long as you are the ones doing the filtering and not them.

I would hope Faithlife would never end up directly selling morally provocative material (which would probably be what moral scholars sometimes call "formal cooperation with evil" - Google it for some interesting discussions about difficult cases like this, where a distinction between "formal" and "material cooperation" is often made, and can be helpful in discernment).

Hopefully a solution like this should take care of that. It's important that Faithlife keep high ethical standards (and I'm not saying that as a businessman)! Smile

Posts 980
JohnB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 19 2015 11:43 PM

Bob Pritchett:
With that said... new information: while every publisher has different rules, it looks like we may be able to get a contract if we agree to distribute just 90% of a publisher's catalog. This would let us not offer the 10% least appropriate / most objectionable content. I'm hoping this will solve the problem. 

If the dollar sums add up so it that it should quickly become self funding and not be a drain on the rest of Faithlife, I would say go for it.

If you can filter off most of the objectionable material from the initial WOOSH of books coming online, filtering the new stuff should be a quite manageable.

You might want to do a trial with one publishing house first though ...

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 20 2015 12:51 AM

Dan Francis:

First and foremost Faithlife is a business. If it were a "Mission to serve the Church" we would have much cheaper products and in general things would be added as needed and not in a pre-pub system. Bob is a Christian, Faithlife is a company offering Christian offerings but not necessarily a company run on Christian principles (sharing as any had need, giving all away). I do not believe it would be fair to say Bob is after filthy lucre. He seems more than happy to reinvest in products to outreach to people (faithlife study bible suite). I do not believe any publisher Bob is hoping to pursue is a primarily a pornography publisher. These companies may offer works that are borderline pornography but one pastor requested 50 shades of grey as an outreach tool. People with pornography addictions can find it anywhere.. indeed some would easily find it in the Bible in Song of Solomon and other more erotic passages of scripture. To suggest that one may develop a porn addiction from a broader offering in Logos offerings seems misleading.. I will admit I have not read them but "Christian romance novels" which are offered in Vyrso could lead some twisted souls to lust... that doesn't mean they should not be offered. Bob is doing his best to migrate Logos into broadening the offerings. I am not saying every work he offers will be worth getting but please take some responsibility. You enter a corner store where pornography is for sale and manage to not purchase it. Now a Christian corner store maybe assume to not carry it, but if they were told you cannot cary sports illustrated time magazine and christianity today without carrying playboy that might be an acceptable compromise in the store owners mind. He may send back every copy of PB to the publisher never selling one. If he can offer every book Amazon offers it will be a great blessing.The objectionable material will be a small minority and I do not think Bob would ever knowing have a book promoted that was questionable (you will never likely see get 50% off 50 shades of Grey on your Logos homepage) but because somewhere you have this you well may get thousands of Christian books you would greatly desire. You may well see it as a deal with the devil.... but I do not... every time there is a massive fund raiser in an organization there is a temptation for someone to embezzle money. We do not stop fundraisers because it puts some at a great temptation. I apologize for my rambling but while I can see some disadvantages to this I see them mostly as a tempest in a teapot. Heck I even know of Mormon owned restaurants that serve alcohol.

-Dan

“About Logos” still states “our mission is to serve the church”, whether or not Logos/Faithlife is true to that mission is another matter, the fact remains that this company claims to have said mission. Serving the Church strongly implies (and even requires) Christian principles and values. If anything, you are highlighting an increasing dissonance between what Logos claims to be and what it actually does.

When it comes to sexual ethics, you and I stand at the two opposite ends of the spectrum. With such dissimilar worldviews, it is pointless to argue on what is acceptable in the Church and organizations designed to support it when it comes to sexually oriented material and what standards apply to such entities.

For conservative Christians like myself, there is absolutely and categorically no scenario under which selling immoral material is acceptable for an individual and company claiming to have (even remotely) anything to do with Christ and serving the Church. No amount of “greater good”, “opening new horizons and possibilities”, “not that bad”, “you could just act like if it is not there” or other “practical” arguments will change that principle.  What you do not seem to understand is that it is a matter of principle, the ends can never justify the means.

I am not writing with the hope of convincing you or those who are just fine with this potential change. Most people here already have a well formed opinion about the appropriateness (or lack thereof) of such resources and their distribution. I will not convince you and you will certainly not make me change my mind.

My aim to convey in no uncertain terms that for some of us, Logos would be crossing the line and that it would have consequences (isn't Bob’s purpose to test the water and see how this would be received?) Some who used to be Logos evangelists will be signing a totally different tune.

It is also likely that Logos has already done the math and that from a financial perspective, the revenue lost from these customers will be replaced and even greatly exceeded by the new markets and their customers.

I do not doubt to financial success of such venture, I just do not want any part of it as a customer if this is the direction the company chooses to go. 

Posts 1945
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 20 2015 1:35 AM

Is there a need for a massive search engine for all books in the world?  It is nice to have all books in the world.  But many of them do not need the powerful search engine that Logos provides.  I am sure some can find use in research to have such a search engine behind it.  Amazon offers books cheaply.  The disadvantage I see in Amazon is that it is hard to organize an Amazon Library. That at least has been my experience.

Posts 688
Kevin A Lewis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 20 2015 1:49 AM

Bob Pritchett:

With that said... new information: while every publisher has different rules, it looks like we may be able to get a contract if we agree to distribute just 90% of a publisher's catalog. This would let us not offer the 10% least appropriate / most objectionable content. I'm hoping this will solve the problem. 

Yes - I recon that would solve the problem - I would revise my "No" to "Yes" - on the basis this was in place and YOU (i.e. Faithlife) took responsibility for the filtering. Even the 24 hours after would be acceptable in my view.

By the way I don't consider the buying from somewhere that sells something else! the major issue. The major issue is what you are prepared to sell. Not every buck is a good buck!. We recently on this side of the pond (in the UK) are grappling with the huge legal issues of when we can discriminate over a "Cake sale". Northern Ireland is the context.

Blessings all - it has and remains an enlightening debate - not least of all seeing those "knee-jerk" reactions from people who haven't read careful what Bob was proposing.

Shalom

Posts 591
Rayner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 20 2015 2:00 AM

John Goodman:

I think you should go for it but add 6 zeros to the price of all the bad stuff... We get all the books we want and you never sell bad stuff except to incredibly stupid billionaires;)

THAT is one of the best suggestions I've seen so far :-)

Also, I keep wondering whether nobody else reads the Song of Songs as erotic ficton??

Posts 164
Niko | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 20 2015 2:00 AM

I wouldn't buy all but a lot more. ANE, semitic languages, Arabian peninsula, islam, linguistics...

Kindle has problems displaying correctly all the phonetic signs, so it would be nice if Logos provided books about linguistics in Logos' quality.

Posts 591
Rayner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 20 2015 2:07 AM

Mark Barnes:

I'm still in favour of this, not least because I have 43 Christian books on my Kindle that I'd love to have bought in Logos format.

Same here.  There's so much not available in Logos that I'd like to read through using Logos.

Mark Barnes:

One possible way to minimise the impact of some of the more controversial content without getting into contractual issues would be to add an adult filter, so that by default erotic titles were not displayed. Initial filtering could be done programmatically, but with the option for users to report titles that have slipped through the net.

That's also a good idea.  Default "not displayed" would be good.  And it might be possible to take it further so that anybody that wanted access to the adult books would have to write to Logos and request access to the filtered books.

Posts 3673
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 20 2015 2:13 AM

Mark:
Is there a need for a massive search engine for all books in the world?

I am not sure that any engine will ever be able to keep up with all the books in the world, especially those published in less known areas. But the closest to this is www.worldcat.org.

Posts 3673
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 20 2015 2:36 AM

deleted.

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 20 2015 3:18 AM

Bob,

Thanks for the additional updates and comments. I like the new 90% concept, such that you could not enable selected titles.

If it was permitted, it would be better for someone to QA and "tag" each new title so they arrived "ready to go", e.g. with the Logos or Vyrso etc sticker in the metadata. This would be better than "Nasty Title" goes on sale for 24 hrs until someone notices it and pulls the plug.

I buy little fiction, but many science/electronic/robotic/maker/computer themed titles (my hobbies and work). I'd love the markup, indexing and searching abilities of the Logos apps and desktop client for such titles.

For those that say FL is in danger of going over some line, or already has: there are many titles already in the library that I dislike and wish were not there. But if we went to the other end of the scale, there would only be a single title: the original KJV just as Paul penned it, right?

Posts 2310
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 20 2015 3:23 AM

I hope Dracula would not again end up on the "bad and sinful" book list... Big Smile

Past IT Consultant. Past Mission Worker. Entrepreneur. Future Seminary Student.
Why Amazon sucks: Full background story of my legal dispute with the online giant

Posts 8940
Forum MVP
Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 20 2015 3:55 AM

Bob Pritchett:
it looks like we may be able to get a contract if we agree to distribute just 90% of a publisher's catalog. This would let us not offer the 10% least appropriate / most objectionable content.

Is this a new development? I think we were under the impression that it was all or nothing. I think the responses in this thread would have been different if we knew this.

Either way, this is great news.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 178
Kendall Sholtess | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 20 2015 4:00 AM

Bob Pritchett:

. Based on feedback here, I am leaning towards offering the broad library at a completely different storefront.

 Great! Go ahead! With the new info I am even more excited about this whole prospect. I really believe in what Faithlife is doing, and I'd rather give my money to Faithlife than another company.

  I hope this will give more opportunity to have even more missions titles available, as well as cross-cultural communications. Here's hoping for the best! Smile

Posts 1829
mike | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 20 2015 4:05 AM
  1. Faithlife is compromising with their core belief to gain more money.
  2. When business is higher than faith, this is what happens. Money rules.
  3. So what if your company doesn't grow larger as you would think without selling selling erotica books? You can't carry your cross... Oh Faithlife??? Can God not able to open other doors to make your company grow without compromising?
  4. Is not always that if you could that you should...
  5. The choice is actually isn't about financial gain, is about moral attitude and ethics. So Bob is definitively responsible standing to be blameless & spotless at the end.
  6. If Bob makes the move then Bob has just given an example to compromise with the world and shows the type of leadership he has. Both to his employees and customers and ...his family.
Page 7 of 20 (395 items) « First ... < Previous 5 6 7 8 9 Next > ... Last » | RSS