Calling all you Greek Scholars...Subjective Genitive in Phil 3:9...

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Feb 7 2010 4:35 AM

Q:

 I was reading Philippians 3:9 and came across the phrase "faith in Christ" and happened to do an F7 to compare the text, and found that the NET had "Christ's Faithfulness" here instead.

That got me to reading the NET notes on the issue of the Subjective Genitive "pisteos Christou" and looking at why they translated it differently. Now I'm intrigued....there seems to be something interesting to sink my teeth into here.

Here is my Q to you:

Do you know of some good resources that deal with this issue that are available in Logos? Journals? Resources?

I want to know more.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 5:07 AM

Wallace's treatment of this issue is pretty good in his Syntax (Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics) but not extremely long. Other than commentaries (which may not even deal with the argument for the Subjective Gen) I can't recall any Logos resources right now. After church I'll dig into my seminary notes to see if I can recommend any further readings.

Posts 352
Mike & Rachel Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 5:14 AM

Robert Pavich:
Do you know of some good resources that deal with this issue that are available in Logos? Journals? Resources?

Moises Silva's BECNT volume on Philippians is worth a look.

Posts 1875
Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 5:38 AM

Robert

There are a lot of resources that you can use to delve into this. Without knowing what you have in your library, it's difficult to know how helpful using the exegetical guide tool would be. When I ran the  exegetical on my own resources I turned up the following.

 

πίστεως

243 

πίστιςfaith, faithfulness | NA27

noungenitivesingularfeminine

 ANLEX  WSNTDICT  DBL Greek  EDNT  Greek-English Dict. of N.T.  LSJ  BDAG  Louw-Nida  LEH LXX Lexicon  An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon  Kleines Wörterbuch zum NT  TDNT  TLNT  M-M  Enhanced Strong's Lexicon  The New Strong's Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek Words  NASB Dictionaries  TDNTA  Synonyms of the New Testament  Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words  Word Studies in the New Testament  Wuest’s Word Studies in the Greek New Testament  LXGRCANLEX James (NIGTC)  Hebrews (NIGTC)  Luke (NIGTC)  Mark (NIGTC)  Pastoral Epistles (NIGTC)  2 Corinthians (NIGTC)

Χριστοῦ

529 

Χριστόςthe Anointed one, the Messiah, the Christ; ... | NA27

noungenitivesingularmasculine

 ANLEX  WSNTDICT  DBL Greek  EDNT  Greek-English Dict. of N.T.  LSJ  BDAG  Louw-Nida  LEH LXX Lexicon  An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon  Kleines Wörterbuch zum NT  TDNT  M-M  Enhanced Strong's Lexicon  The New Strong's Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek Words  NASB Dictionaries  TDNTA  Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words  Word Studies in the New Testament  Wuest’s Word Studies in the Greek New Testament  LXGRCANLEX  Hebrews (NIGTC)  Luke (NIGTC)  Mark (NIGTC)  Pastoral Epistles (NIGTC)

 

The important thing to remember in Word Studies is that the context is vitally important and that is what translators use to render not just words but phrases. Hence some talk of Christ's faith(fulness) while others refer to faith in Christ. I'll happily take this further if you want. There are several good commentaries eg New International Greek Testament Commentary and Word Biblical Commentary which both deal directly with the Greek text. The Word Commentary is particularly useful in that it gives a very full bibliography at the beginning of each chapter (including Journal articles)

Every blessing in your studies.

 

 

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Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 5:46 AM

Kevin Becker:
Wallace's treatment of this issue is pretty good in his Syntax (Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics) but not extremely long.

Kevin Becker:
Moises Silva's BECNT volume on Philippians is worth a look.

 

thanks for not chastising me..I have both of these resources and didn't even look! sorry...

 

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 5:48 AM

Alan Macgregor:
New International Greek Testament Commentary

Arggg....I have that also...

 

I think there is a lesson here about self sufficiency... Embarrassed 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 5:59 AM

Robert Pavich:
thanks for not chastising me..I have both of these resources and didn't even look! sorry...

 

That is what you get for doing syntax studies so early in the morning. Have another cup of coffee Robert and enjoy Big Smile

 

 

Posts 2759
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 6:42 AM

Robert Pavich:
I think there is a lesson here about self sufficiency... Embarrassed 

I would disagree, we are not like a "worldly forum" where we try and get oneupmanship, our forums are much more about community and encouraging others, L4 is such a powerful hammer no one can know how to fully weild it, thankfully in the body/community we have folks who understand bits of it better than others, and who are willing to share.

Personally I am glad when questions like this come up because (being a layman who occassionaly preaches) I learn SOOOOO much from the replies.

no chastisement from me, just thanks

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 8:50 AM

Dom,

Well I was just being funny. I know that the brothers and sisters here are very helpful....as you saw in this thread....not even any villagers with torches... 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 9:54 AM

Kevin Becker:
Wallace's treatment of this issue is pretty good in his Syntax (Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics) but not extremely long. Other than commentaries (which may not even deal with the argument for the Subjective Gen) I can't recall any Logos resources right now. After church I'll dig into my seminary notes to see if I can recommend any further readings.

I don't think I can add, Logos-resource wise, to these recommendations. Search your library for πιστις Χριστοῦ (exclude bibles, they will clutter up your results). Some proponents of the subjective reading (which I find persuasive) are Hays; Longenecker; and Martyn. This debate comes up most fiercely (it seems) in Galatians 3:1-4:11. Hays does have a book out on this debate which includes counterpoint by Dunn but it's not a Logos book.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 10:01 AM

Kevin Becker:
Search your library for πιστις Χριστοῦ (exclude bibles, they will clutter up your results). Some proponents of the subjective reading (which I find persuasive) are Hays; Longenecker; and Martyn. This debate comes up most fiercely (it seems) in Galatians 3:1-4:11. Hays does have a book out on this debate which includes counterpoint by Dunn but it's not a Logos book.

Thanks Kevin,

I was surprised at how little there was on it...I'll keep digging.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 582
Gary O'Neal | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 11:22 AM

Robert Pavich:
I was surprised at how little there was on it...I'll keep digging.

Theological journals are a great place to find these kinds of answers. I don't know what you have access to, but here are some I came across in a quick search of EBSCOHost that look relevant.

Schenck, Kenneth. "2 Corinthians and the Pistis Christou debate." Catholic Biblical Quarterly 70, no. 3 (July 1, 2008): 524.

Harrisville, Roy A. "Before pistis Christou: the objective genitive as good Greek." Novum testamentum 48, no. 4 (January 1, 2006): 353.

Matlock, R Barry. "Detheologizing the pistis Christou debate: Cautionary remarks from a lexical semantic perspective." Novum testamentum 42, no. 1 (January 1, 2000): 1-263.

Dunn, James D G. "Once more, Pistis Christou." Society of Biblical Literature Seminar Papers no. 30 (January 1, 1991): 730.

Hays, Richard B. "Pistis and Pauline christology : what is at stake?." Society of Biblical Literature Seminar Papers no. 30 (January 1, 1991): 714.

Harrisville, Roy A. "Pistis Christou : Witness of the Fathers." Novum testamentum 36, no. 3 (July 1, 1994): 233.

"Pistis Christou: reading Paul in a new paradigm." Andrews University Seminary Studies 40, no. 1 (March 1, 2002): 37.

Matlock, R Barry. "PISTIS in Galatians 3.26: neglected evidence for 'faith in Christ'?." New Testament Studies 49, no. 3 (July 1, 2003): 433.

Choi, Hung-sik. "Pistis in Galatians 5:5-6: neglected evidence for the faithfulness of Christ." Journal of Biblical Literature 124, no. 3 (September 1, 2005): 467.

Hunn, Debbie. "Pistis Xristou in Galatians 2:16: clarification from 3:1-6." Tyndale Bulletin 57, no. 1 (January 1, 2006): 23.

Foster, Paul. "The first contribution to the pistis Chrstoy debate: a study of Ephesians 3.12." Journal for the Study of the New Testament no. 85 (March 1, 2002): 75.

Matlock, R Barry. "The rhetoric of pistis in Paul: Galatians 2:16, 3:22, Romans 3:22, and Philippians 3:9." Journal for the Study of the New Testament 30, no. 2 (December 1, 2007): 173.

Stubbs, David L. "The shape of soteriology and the pistis Christou debate." Scottish Journal of Theology 61, no. 2 (January 1, 2008): 137.

Lindsay, Dennis R. "Works of law, hearing of faith and pistis Christoy in Galatians 2:16-3:5." Stone-Campbell Journal 3, no. 1 (March 1, 2000): 79-63.

πάντα εἰς δόξαν θεοῦ ποιεῖτε

Posts 656
Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 11:38 AM

The best treatment of the objective genitive view is Moises Silva's chapter "Faith Vs. Works of the Law in Galatians" in "Justification and Variegated Nomism: Volume 2." The best treatment of the subjective genitive view is that of Richard B. Hays in "The Faith of Jesus Christ: The Narrative Substructure of Galatians 3:1-4:11." A new book that contains multiple perspectives is "The Faith of Jesus Christ: Exegetical, Biblical, and Theological Studies" edited by Michael F. Bird and Preston M. Sprinkle.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 11:40 AM

Thank you everyone for your suggestions....much appreciated.

 

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 11:43 AM

Richard B. Hays in "The Faith of Jesus Christ: The Narrative Substructure of Galatians 3:1-4

 

And what do you know...it's available on Google books!

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 11:57 AM

See also Tom Schreiner's comments on Romans 3:21-26 in his BECNT volume on Romans, 181-186.

Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 12:08 PM

Gary O'Neal:

Theological journals are a great place to find these kinds of answers. I don't know what you have access to, but here are some I came across in a quick search of EBSCOHost that look relevant.

Gary, what resource is EBSCOHost? Looks interesting, I don't think I have any of these articles...thanks!

Posts 656
Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 12:31 PM

It's the ATLA search database that allows you to search through every major theological journal available. A good portion of the results allow you to download them in pdf format.. Theological libraries have the database. I have access to it on my computer. I'll search through and see what I can find.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 1:05 PM

Russ Quinn:
See also Tom Schreiner's comments on Romans 3:21-26 in his BECNT volume on Romans, 181-186.

Thanks Russ...I hadn't see than one.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 1:06 PM

Jeremy:
It's the ATLA search database that allows you to search through every major theological journal available. A good portion of the results allow you to download them in pdf format.. Theological libraries have the database. I have access to it on my computer. I'll search through and see what I can find.

 

Is it a pay service?

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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