SMALL but HUGE Morphology Chart Improvement

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This post has 11 Replies | 5 Followers

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Andrew Zoll | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Aug 6 2015 11:40 AM
love the morphology charts in logos 6. They are an amazingly helpful resource. One addition (and if it’s already possible, I apologize for my ignorance) would make them an invaluable and essential asset for bible study and original language work: if you could show ALL the forms for the words in addition to the number of times they’re used, even if it’s 0. Really, all you'd have to do is fill in the blanks that already exist (see attached image)! Ideally, this would have a toggle so you could move back and forth between that and the current tool’s view, it would be amazing. It would be a helpful refresher for those studying the original languages, but struggle to keep the forms in their memory and also those who study other Greek works like the Septuagint to make those connections that we might otherwise miss. 

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Greg F | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 7 2015 7:12 AM

Yes, I absolutely agree, this would be extremely useful.

In fact, I remember I was excited to see that there were  "morphology charts" in Logos 6, thinking (mistakenly) that I would be able to access full conjugation and declination tables.. As things stand now, I never use the Morophology tool.

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 7 2015 7:43 AM

Andrew Zoll:
Ideally, this would have a toggle so you could move back and forth between that and the current tool’s view

Yes

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Eli Evans (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 7 2015 4:17 PM

Thanks, Andrew! I think you really have two suggestions here:

Andrew Zoll:
those who study other Greek works like the Septuagint to make those connections that we might otherwise miss.

Adding the Septuagint (LXX) is a great idea that is on our "someday" list. We definitely should fill in forms from other literature, first the LXX, then other literature from roughly the same period like Apostolic Fathers, Josephus, Philo. This would be valuable, for sure.

Andrew Zoll:
Really, all you'd have to do is fill in the blanks that already exist (see attached image)!

Comprehensive fill-in is suggested periodically, but is impractical for a number of reasons:

  • Not counting function words and indeclinable words like proper nouns and loan words, there are around 10,000 Greek and Hebrew/Aramaic lemmas represented in the Morph Charts. So maybe as many as a million blanks.
  • Lots of forms of a given word never occur in any known literature because the forms fulfill relatively obscure grammatical functions. For example, there is only one future passive subjunctive first person plural verb in my whole library of every Greek morph text we've every published -- and it's not a lemma that occurs in the LXX or NT anyway.
  • Other forms are extremely unlikely to ever occur because they would be semantically nonsensical (eg, "he will have given birth to himself").
  • We could try writing a program to take a lemma and automatically generate missing forms, but some words form irregularly, and many more semi-regularly, so you'd spend a lot of time on the rule set.

That said, I know of some print resources that show completely filled-in paradigms for exemplar words, which we could do as well, someday. But nobody has attempted every word in the Bible or even the NT as far as I know. The closest thing I've ever seen is Mounce's Morphology of Biblical Greek, also available in Logos.

Thanks again for the suggestions. Keep 'em coming.

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 7 2015 4:49 PM

Eli has explained it in the best way possible!

IIRC, Mounce's MBG has a few isolated errors (can't recall exactly, maybe in the subjunctive liquids). In my experience, it doesn't help a lot to have a table with every form of each attested Koine Greek verb.

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Andrew Zoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 10 2015 12:15 PM
That being said, it would be at least helpful if ONE word from each type of word was filled in completely as an example and a refresher for those of us who have a hard time keeping μι, ς, σι, με(ν), τε, οσι(ν) or ω, εις, η, ομεν, ετε, ουσι(ν) in our heads.

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Eli Evans (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 10 2015 12:53 PM

I agree. 

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 10 2015 1:04 PM

Eli Evans:

I agree. 

Maybe this could come as a "Greek paradigm interactive" (with the usual words and tables - and of course flip between suffix-only display and word display, and e.g. the ability to switch between Mounce-style and Other-Teacher's-style with regards to displaying the vocals or not as part of the suffixes etc)

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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 10 2015 11:06 PM

Just slightly off-topic, but now I found this "show empty" button and it seems useful to me, I can see the morphology in standard positions. Geeked

I don't know in which version that button came there. I probably bypassed it as it did not make any sense and did not even test it. Embarrassed

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Drew Reynolds | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 18 2016 12:28 PM

Hi Eli!

As a new owner of Logos 7, I was trying to find if something existed exactly how Andrew had described.  It would be extremely helpful for me and I'm sure many other language students if as many blanks as possible could be filled in.  I am using Mounce's Morphology of Biblical Greek, but it would be 1,000 times better if it were in the morphology charts in Logos already.  Just adding my vote and hope that you guys will expand on this in some way.  Thanks!!! :)

- Drew

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 18 2016 5:11 PM

Eli Evans (Faithlife):
... I know of some print resources that show completely filled-in paradigms for exemplar words, which we could do as well, someday.

Perhaps the free paradigm pdf files in => Greek and Hebrew Paradigm Charts (10 pack) could become Logos resources, possibly expanded to include exemplar words.

Eli Evans (Faithlife):

Andrew Zoll:
those who study other Greek works like the Septuagint to make those connections that we might otherwise miss.

Adding the Septuagint (LXX) is a great idea that is on our "someday" list. We definitely should fill in forms from other literature, first the LXX, then other literature from roughly the same period like Apostolic Fathers, Josephus, Philo. This would be valuable, for sure.

+1 Yes for LXX and other additions. Noted LXX has more forms of σῴζω

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Posts 647
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 15 2017 9:39 AM

I like to raise this issue again, it would be great if the LXX was included in the Morphology Charts.  I use them all the time and would love to be able to use them for the LXX as well.

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