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Posts 1150
Anthony H | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 6 2015 10:58 AM

deleted....

Posts 5301
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 6 2015 1:58 PM

Kevin Byford (Faithlife):

Thank you for pointing us to a most detailed explanation of what happened. The greater point at the moment that myself and others are asking is should we move away from FL resources because we need more dependable and robust online services. I know it has been argued before that the iOS APP is free but so is the Olivetree APP, heck so is a fully functioning Accordance APP with offline greek/hebrew support. People including me are buying resources elsewhere precisely because of the poor mobile support. For me it is quite the dichotomy  Logos for me is the new kid on my software platform, it is also my largest investment because of the number of great resources available. Logos offers the worst mobile experience of the three companies I mentioned, myself and others are hoping there will be improvements. But if status quo functionality is all we can expect in mobile world I will happily go elsewhere. 

-Dan

Posts 1085
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 8 2015 9:59 AM

Thanks Bob

I just wanted tag this post so i can check back to it.

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Posts 5301
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 8 2015 10:49 AM

Dan Francis:
robust online services.

OFFLINE services... I thought context made it clear but still thought I would make the correction now that i see it.

-Dan

Posts 3770
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 8 2015 10:49 AM

I don't have much to say with regard to this topic except this: I think that the title you chose, Dan, for your thread is inappropriately equivocal. There has to be better ways to demonstrate cleverness in titles or to draw attention to a thread.

Posts 5301
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 8 2015 1:09 PM

My apologies  to any who were offended.... spelling out what i meant by WTF in the topic line seemed like enough of an explanation....  In our world full of acronyms it can be important to clarify ones meaning (I know of one older lady who used LOL as lots of love, until it got used after an accident and it was explained to her the more common proper meaning and she said her meaning). Now obviously I was playing off a vulgar acronyms one that I have seen my adult nephews use but do not actually use myself. But it truly was expressing my sentiments. when I went to use Verbum my iPad and suddenly found everything erased I did not curse to myself but my first thoughts were how has Logos messed this up again, they were suppose to have fixed this... Now as it turns out this was a similar but different error. To quote another user "Logos is too unstable to depend upon", which is a serious mess up for a company wishing to sell stuff to people. I was able to use my iPad to go to my computer and run Verbum there doing what i wanted to do and thankfully I had no issues there. These are serious problems to be perfectly honest if there was a way to migrate all my works over to a different platform I would because: having it erased off my iPad is bad enough, one person said his desktop was wiped out too. I do not expect miracles but there is something wrong when the  "premiere" Bible software's mobile app is not only overwhelming underpowered (compared to it's competitors ones), but can erase our Libraries too. σκύβαλον is rather vulgar but it doesn't stop Paul from using it to make his point. I was raised Lutheran and having read enough of Luther I do not pussy foot around language as much as some would. I once again apologize for any offence had I expected anyone to be offended I would have used simply "What the Faithlife?"

-Dan

Posts 3770
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 8 2015 1:36 PM

Thanks, Dan, apology accepted.

As an aside point and not meaning to be contentious about it, I'm not sure I'd agree that σκύβαλον can be qualified as being vulgar. 

Posts 4264
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Kevin Byford (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 8 2015 2:13 PM

Regarding offline data and tools, please see https://community.logos.com/forums/p/44833/720849.aspx#720849  and https://community.logos.com/forums/p/44833/724083.aspx#724083 .

We will soon be adding Prayer Lists because it's the most requested feature on UserVoice:

Posts 1602
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 8 2015 3:05 PM

Dan Francis:

My apologies  to any who were offended.... spelling out what i meant by WTF in the topic line seemed like enough of an explanation....  

Your comments are very clear, Dan.  I understand your point and can appreciate it.  I am sure that is the same for many others on the forums.  No apology is necessary. You bring up a valid concern which is evident by a response from the guy at the top.  Don't worry.  You're all good with us here!

Smile

Posts 5301
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 8 2015 3:18 PM

Kevin Byford (Faithlife):

Thank you it is good to know that you are looking at what is feasible offline... I know your set up makes somethings easier than others... For me I have tried to learned to be content with the basic offline features you now have and switch too other apps when needed. I had missed this latter part of that thread where we are told it was being investigated. I also fully realize NEW features highly requested  are going to seem a greater priority and there are only so many programers around to do the work. I know it is not as simple as pulling the code off your servers and putting it in the APP.... wouldn't that be great if it was the case.

-Dan

Posts 5301
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 8 2015 3:29 PM

Francis:
As an aside point and not meaning to be contentious about it, I'm not sure I'd agree that σκύβαλον can be qualified as being vulgar. 

I am no expert at greek, I only know I have heard one Lutheran Greek professor and Chuck Swindoll infer it should be read as such, the Professor whose name slips my mind referred to it as not a very nice word for "dung" in the greek.

-Dan

Posts 13399
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 8 2015 4:22 PM

Dan Francis:
I am no expert at greek, I only know I have heard one Lutheran Greek professor and Chuck Swindoll infer it should be read as such, the Professor whose name slips my mind referred to it as not a very nice word for "dung" in the greek

Some have thought that Paul here deliberately uses language that is vulgar, or at least crude, perhaps comparable to Eng. crap (cf. Spicq 3:265; the orig. French is crotte, “dung”). However, the use of the term by various writers (see above, GL, esp. the refs. to Philo) does not indicate such a nuance; the rendering of the NIV 2011 is prob. on target: “I consider them garbage.” (NIDNTTE)

Luther, on the other hand, seemed to have no real scruples about vulgar language and toilet humour.

Posts 491
R. Mansfield | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 8 2015 5:58 PM

Well, if we're on this subject, see Dan Block's comment on Ezekiel's particular word for "idols" in the Ezek 6:4-7 section of his NICOT commentary. Although he is politely reserved in his commentary, Block was less reserved in the informal setting of the classroom (back in the 90s) where he told us the English equivalent of exactly what Ezekiel meant.

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Posts 4264
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Kevin Byford (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 8 2015 11:16 PM

Tim Taylor:
Faithlife employees have consistently either completely ignored them, blown them off as impossible, or just said, "the mobile app is not intended to be like the desktop app" as a reason to accept less than standard quality for a mobile Bible app.

Tim, I'm willing to discuss this offline if you wish.  kevin dot byford at faithlife dot com.

Posts 3770
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 9 2015 12:48 AM

R. Mansfield:

see Dan Block's comment on Ezekiel's particular word for "idols" in the Ezek 6:4-7 ... where he told us the English equivalent of exactly what Ezekiel meant.

What professors say in class should always taken with caution until it can be verified. They too, as human beings, get caught up in the moment and can exaggerate. I had a professor who seemed intent on vindicating his desire to see the Scriptures as "looser than you stiff bigots make it to be". I could see his taste for this in his own occasional use of inappropriate words to shock and how satisfied he seemed to be with himself when he did it (the "innovative" Bible scholar). In any case, I am not saying Block is wrong nor that there never is (nor should be) anything objectionable in the Scriptures, but since I do not have the corresponding NICOT volume, and I cannot find something that matches in the many lexical resources I have, I am curious about what exactly he says about the meaning or connotations of גִּלּוּלִים.

Posts 491
R. Mansfield | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 9 2015 6:27 AM

Francis:

...since I do not have the corresponding NICOT volume, and I cannot find something that matches in the many lexical resources I have, I am curious about what exactly he says about the meaning or connotations of גִּלּוּלִים.

Here you go [warning: there is some strong language in the footnotes]:

idols. The word gillûlı̂m, which occurs three times in this text, represents Ezekiel’s favorite expression for “images.” Although he did not coin the term, the fact that 39 of its 48 occurrences in the OT are in this book indicates its usefulness for his purposes.42 The word appears to be an artificial construct derived from the verb gālal, “to roll,” but vocalized after the pattern of šiqqûṣı̂m.43 The adoption of this word as a designation for idols may have been prompted by the natural pelletlike shape and size of sheep feces or, less likely, the cylindrical shape of human excrement.44 The name has nothing to do with the shape of idols, but it expresses Ezekiel’s/Yahweh’s disposition toward them. Modern sensitivities prevent translators from rendering this expression as Ezekiel intended it to be heard, but had he been preaching today, he would probably have identified these idols with a four-letter word for excrement.45 A more caustic comment on idolatry can scarcely be imagined. Yahweh’s treatment of these images will involve not only their “smashing” (šābar) and “obliteration” (šābat), but their exposure as powerless figments of the human imagination. The destruction of the images testifies to the deities’ impotence to defend themselves,46 and the slaughter of the devotees to the gods’ inability to defend their worshipers.

42. Ezekiel’s usage is inspired by Lev. 26:30, but it occurs elsewhere in Deut. 29:16 (Eng. 17); 1 K. 15:12; 21:26; 2 K. 17:12; 21:11, 21; 23:24; Jer. 50:2.

43. See above on 5:11. For a full discussion of the word see D. Bodi, “Les gillûlı̂m chez Ézéchiel et dans l’Ancien Testament, et les différentes pratiques cultuelles associées à ce terme,” RB 100 (1993) 481–510.

44. Cf. Ezekiel’s earlier reference to human excrement as gelĕlê hāʾādām in 4:12, 15.

45. Bodi (RB 100 [1993] 481, 510) captures the intended sense with “shitgods.”

46. Cf. Joash’s defense of Gideon, in Judg. 6:31, after the smashing of Baal’s altar: “If he is a god, let him defend, since someone has torn down his altar.”

Daniel I. Block, The Book of Ezekiel, Chapters 1–24, New International Commentary on the Old Testament. Accordance electronic ed. (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1997), 226.

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Posts 623
JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 9 2015 10:01 AM

Tim Taylor:
This isn't just a matter of whether or not the FL servers are dependable. I know that you guys do your best to keep the servers up and running. For me, the most important reality is that mobile devices are, well, mobile! That means they're not always going to be connected to the internet. If I'm at a church that doesn't have WiFi, a large percentage of the Logos mobile app's features are completely gone on my mobile devices unless I have a data subscription. I don't have a data subscription on my tablet, so I'm simply out of luck when traveling or away from a WiFi network. Even on my smart phone, my cell data plan is limited, so I don't like to know that precious data is being consumed by tasks that could easily be done locally without a need for internet.

Well stated.

Tim Taylor:
Not to mention the issue of connection speeds. Depending on how fast one's connection to the internet may be determines how fast the app works when it is so needy on the servers. I couldn't even tell you how many times I've gotten so frustrated with a FL app that I have to just close it down and open a competitor's app because of the extremely slow response time due to server dependency. Internet connection speeds vary, and I don't like my Bible study experience to be dependent on that.

My own experience is similar. FWIW I have a high spec Android phone with unlimited data.

Tim, I think you have identified what should rightly be of prime consideration when building server-side dependencies into the mobile apps.

I just can't find the time, or energy, to write my own comprehensive post on the experience trying to use the mobile apps - which would properly mean starting a new thread.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

Posts 1518
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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 9 2015 10:41 AM

JAL:

Tim Taylor:
I couldn't even tell you how many times I've gotten so frustrated with a FL app that I have to just close it down and open a competitor's app because of the extremely slow response time due to server dependency. 

My own experience is similar. FWIW I have a high spec Android phone with unlimited data.

Where I've personally experienced speed problems when online the most is with the Bible citations that one taps on and a popup opens. When I'm online, the popup oftentimes take a long time to appear, even though I have the Bible that is being used has been download locally to my device and is available offline. Nevertheless, the citations are being downloaded each time apparently.

When I'm offline the popup windows appear very quickly with the beginning of the verse (I wish I could say "verses," but only the beginning of one verse appears in the Android app).

For the rest, I have had pretty decent experience regarding speed as long as I have the resources I'm using downloaded. If you're having speed problems, make sure you've downloaded the resources you use most. It makes a huge difference (except for the popup windows).

Posts 623
JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 9 2015 11:06 AM

Fr Devin Roza:
I have had pretty decent experience regarding speed as long as I have the resources I'm using downloaded. If you're having speed problems, make sure you've downloaded the resources you use most. It makes a huge difference (except for the popup windows).

Good observation.

Fr Devin Roza:
When I'm offline the popup windows appear very quickly with the beginning of the verse (I wish I could say "verses," but only the beginning of one verse appears in the Android app).

One reason I frequently don't use a Faithlife app - other apps allow me to scroll through the text within pop-ups for bible verse links. Not only can I then read the whole verse range referenced I can also examine the context very efficiently.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

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