User Manuals -- Are hardcopies available?

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 12:22 PM

Charles McNeil:
Please name another product (of great cost) that requires the buyers to purchase the instructions to operate it?

My wife spent a small fortune on Adobe Creative Suite and 3D Studio Max. She had to get a college degree in Computer Animation to learn how to use the software.

Charles McNeil:
No one is asking for welfare here, just fairness and support.

I disagree. 

Charles McNeil:
IMHOP, I think there should be many more of Morris Proctor’s bootcamps around the country and they should be free (no charge to customers). I know Mr. Proctor can’t be in many places at the same time. After all, he is human. So, may I suggest, start training many others (begin with the regional, the state, and the large cities) to explain how to use this product fully and correctly.

You have no idea of the cost of what you are asking for. Faithlife does not have a big enough profit margin to afford your plan. Do you expect training seminars in all countries of the world and in all languages? How much more are you willing to pay for your base package? If Logos sent printed manuals to each and every user the manual would make it onto the NY Times best seller list upon release. (over 1 million users)

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 12:40 PM

Maybe an updated online manual that functions as a Logos Book would do Doc B., with the option to print it.

Lynden Williams Communications

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Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 12:43 PM

Lynden Williams:

Maybe an updated online manual that functions as a Logos Book would do Doc B., with the option to print it.

Yes

Blessings,
Floyd

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 2:05 PM

Lynden Williams:
Maybe an updated online manual that functions as a Logos Book would do Doc B., with the option to print it.

I don't know if that's the best option, but it is better than no option.

Tagging as a book has already been tried: Up until a few months ago, you could get one help file by clicking on the '?' in Logos, and you could get a 'book' help file from the Library. Those have been consolidated, and everything works through the '?' now.

The tagged resource is probably not necessary and extra work. An RTF or docx file would be easier to create and maintain, and could be tagged by the user as needed, compiled into a PB, or simply printed (section by section as needed).

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 3:52 PM

Doc B:
a manual for a software program is no where near as complicated as a manual for life (TIC).

You have made my point.  This all the more the users Logos should have a manual sooner, rather than or never.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 3:58 PM

Charles McNeil:

Doc B:
a manual for a software program is no where near as complicated as a manual for life (TIC).

You have made my point.  This all the more the users Logos should have a manual sooner, rather than or never.

Just to re-iterate. The manuals exist, the issue seems to be over whether they should be free.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 4:44 PM

Graham Criddle:
Just to re-iterate. The manuals exist, the issue seems to be over whether they should be free.

Yes, that is the issue. I do not mind if Faithlife were to provide an online manual but I am against them wasting money providing hardcopy manuals free to all users. I have spent a considerable sum buying my library of 42,400+ resources. I have also acquired a lot of training along the way:

  • Camp Logos  Live 1
  • Camp Logos DVD 1 & 2
  • Verbum 360 training
  • Learn Logos.com
  • Udemy Logos course
  • Logos 5 Academic Training
  • Logos 6 Academic Training
  • MP digital user manuals 1 & 2
  • MP paper user manuals 1 & 2
  • 28 Quick Start videos
  • Logos Pro 
  • Morris Proctor Monday tips

Demanding free training seminars with your Logos purchase is like asking for free driving school with your new car purchase. Be happy to have so much training available. And pay the trainer for his work.

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 5:39 PM

Super.Tramp:
Demanding free training seminars with your Logos purchase is like asking for free driving school with your new car purchase.

No. It's like asking for a free owner's manual with your new car.

Not to mention, the state requires that you pass a driving test (i.e, be able to use a car) BEFORE you buy it. The analogy fails at every point.

Duh.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 5:43 PM

Graham Criddle:
The manuals exist

Graham, do comprehensive, FL-produced manuals exist? If so, why hasn't anyone pointed them out anytime over the past few years that various folks, like me, have been pleading for them? I'm not talking about help files, wikis, Mo's materials, and other aftermarket multi-media stuff. A Faithlife-produced user's manual.

(And yes, some of us old fashioned types think that a user manual is part of the purchase price...not free, but paid for in the purchase price...of a software package, especially a premium one.)

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 6:51 PM

Doc B:

Super.Tramp:
Demanding free training seminars with your Logos purchase is like asking for free driving school with your new car purchase.

No. It's like asking for a free owner's manual with your new car.

Doc B:
I paid nearly a thousand bucks to fly out to and attend Mo Proctor's Camp Logos I

That is one expensive owner's manual.

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C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 7:54 PM

Graham Criddle:
Just to re-iterate. The manuals exist

When will it be shipped to those of us that need one? I know you can't give an official word, but its good to know they exit. Thanks!

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C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 8:33 PM

Super.Tramp:
I have spent a considerable sum buying my library of 42,400+ resources.

The fact that you spent so much money on training is very revealing:

  1. This software is not the easiest to use. The mere fact that you spent so much to get a proper understanding on how to use software speaks volumes.
  2. You were blessed to have the means to purchase all the training that you did.
  3. Now, can you see why a manual is needed for those who are beginners?
  4. Given that you spent so much, maybe you can be one of the trainers to help others.
Posts 237
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 9:04 PM

Super.Tramp:
Demanding free training seminars with your Logos purchase

If you're referring to me, this statement is not true. I  made a suggestion. If you would look in the dictionary in your large library, you would see clearly the two words,  "Suggestion" and "demand" are not the same in spelling nor meaning.

There was a time in the eighties, when the housing market was in a slump [FL], a developer threw in a free car for anyone who buys a new house. Oh, a free manual can with the car.

If Faithlife gave the people the manuals to begin with, there may not be so much need for training or trainers.

"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day; teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 9:14 PM

Charles McNeil:
The fact that you spent so much money on training is very revealing:

The amount I spent on training is a tiny percentage of what I spent on resources. I am happy to pay the trainers for their labour.  My Logos is an investment and the training brings more value to it.

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C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 9:21 PM

Super.Tramp:
free training seminars with your Logos purchase is like asking for free driving school with your new car purchase.
This appears to be a"straw man" argument.

To illustrate the present situation is thus:  One fills a prescription at the pharmacy and one is required to pay extra for the directions to use it properly. Is this fair? This method is a form of control and manipulation.

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C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 9:29 PM

Super.Tramp:
The amount I spent on training is a tiny percentage of what I spent on resources.

That may be so. However, I made the statement in light of what the average person is willing and able to spend.

Super.Tramp:
I am happy to pay the trainers for their labour.

I too, after I get my manual. If I need additional help, paying a trainer make good sense and the fair thing to do. No one is looking for welfare.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 9:36 PM

Charles McNeil:
No one is looking for welfare.

I still disagree.

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C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 9:42 PM

Doc B:
(And yes, some of us old fashioned types think that a user manual is part of the purchase price...not free, but paid for in the purchase price...of a software package, especially a premium one.)

You are "spot on!" The cost and the size of the manuals are indicative to the nature of the product. What company designs a pre-fab building and complains about the size of the instructional manual and "demands" the buyer to pay extra for it? 

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C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 9:45 PM

Super.Tramp:
I still disagree.

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 28 2015 9:49 PM

Was anyone promised a hardcopy user manual when they purchased Logos?

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