Payment Plans and you

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This post has 134 Replies | 16 Followers

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2015 11:02 AM

This does have me contemplating a purchase of Collectors edition, but I havent heard back from either of sales guys I've used. Neither Rusty nor Mark.

Might well make a big purchase as there will likely be quite a new-title drought until my plan is paid off.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 154
Sakarias Ingolfsson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2015 11:17 AM

As I remember it, when Logos first introduced payment plans, they did not want to pressure anyone to purchase something that they could not afford. For that reason a minimum purchase amount was required for getting a payment plan, and they were all rather short. A six month maximum, if memory serves me right. So when Logos now requires a 25% initial downpayment, some of that inital concern for the customer seems to be back.

Of course, that is not how Bob explained it, but still: It does make you think twice before buying something that you cannot afford, and perhaps do not even need. It works for the best in the end, eh? Big Smile

There is one thing that I can not quite make sense of (based on this discussion). Is the 25% downpayment only a requirement when you add something to an existing plan, or is it a requirement for new plans as well?

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2015 11:32 AM

Sakarias Ingolfsson:
There is one thing that I can not quite make sense of (based on this discussion). Is the 25% downpayment only a requirement when you add something to an existing plan, or is it a requirement for new plans as well?

I can't really say. I never got the email.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2015 11:43 AM

abondservant:

This does have me contemplating a purchase of Collectors edition, but I havent heard back from either of sales guys I've used. Neither Rusty nor Mark.

Might well make a big purchase as there will likely be quite a new-title drought until my plan is paid off.

I talked to a sales rep this morning and he told me they haven't been briefed on the changes yet.

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C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2015 12:50 PM

Bob Pritchett:

This is a small inconvenience that bank loans and cash management can handle -- if it represents a fraction of your sales (which it did for us, for many years). Now it's grown to the point that we need to tweak the parameters for new purchases.

Please continue to provide feedback, and we'll continue tweaking the program, just as we've been doing all along. Payment plans started with many more limitations / a shorter time frame / etc. We loosened that up, responding to the market, and now we're just tightening it up for the same reason. We'll continue to tune the parameters to find a balance that works for you while allowing us to pay the bills -- because we can't promise the power company or rights holders or employees or the IRS to just wait a year to get paid! :-)

Believe it or not, Bob, I understand your point of view. Flash cash is the way to go. Cash payment is the way for all to benefit:  It helps the users to live within their means and Faithlife will receive its needed cash. 

Bob, you have a business to run and a legacy to carry on. This is a new day. You can only do about so much. All reasonable users of Logos can understand that. As long as you provide truth in advertisement, service after the sale, and a good product at fair price (check this one Big Smile), you can boldly ask those who owe, to pay up. No, you didn't ask me to say what I said, its just the truth. Take care of business!

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2015 1:43 PM

Charles McNeil:

Bob Pritchett:

This is a small inconvenience that bank loans and cash management can handle -- if it represents a fraction of your sales (which it did for us, for many years). Now it's grown to the point that we need to tweak the parameters for new purchases.

Please continue to provide feedback, and we'll continue tweaking the program, just as we've been doing all along. Payment plans started with many more limitations / a shorter time frame / etc. We loosened that up, responding to the market, and now we're just tightening it up for the same reason. We'll continue to tune the parameters to find a balance that works for you while allowing us to pay the bills -- because we can't promise the power company or rights holders or employees or the IRS to just wait a year to get paid! :-)

Believe it or not, Bob, I understand your point of view. Flash cash is the way to go. Cash payment is the way for all to benefit:  It helps the users to live within their means and Faithlife will receive its needed cash. 

Bob, you have a business to run and a legacy to carry on. This is a new day. You can only do about so much. All reasonable users of Logos can understand that. As long as you provide truth in advertisement, service after the sale, and a good product at fair price (check this one Big Smile), you can boldly ask those who owe, to pay up. No, you didn't ask me to say what I said, its just the truth. Take care of business!

For the record, it has bothered me that several users have talked about living within means. Being on a payment plan does not mean that you are not living within your means. Using credit does not mean you are not living within your means.

Now, if you abuse those things then yes, you aren't living within your means. But if you budget out and know what you can reasonably accommodate, that IS living within your means.

I have done payment plans before because of my school. There are commentaries where it was cheaper to get a base package on a payment plan than to buy individual items necessary for the class.  That is being a good steward.

Just needed to get that off my chest.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2015 1:55 PM

Sakarias Ingolfsson:
Is the 25% downpayment only a requirement when you add something to an existing plan, or is it a requirement for new plans as well?

The email isn't clear, but my reading of both the email and Bob's comments suggest that it's for when you add something to an existing plan.

The exact phrase in my email is "Starting on Monday, in order to add resources to a payment plan we will need to charge 25% of the new order total."

It would be 100% clear if it said "an existing payment plan", which unfortunately it doesn't. However, I the fact that it says "new order", and not just "order" , and the fact it says "add resources to a payment plan", rather than "buy resources on a payment plan" tips the balance in favour of the down payment only being required for existing plans.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2015 2:12 PM

David Carter:

Looking on the bright side, maybe this will put an end to the unsolicited (and speaking personally, unwanted) telephone sales calls.

That would be a huge plus

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2015 2:18 PM

Mark Barnes:
The email isn't clear, but my reading of both the email and Bob's comments suggest that it's for when you add something to an existing plan.

As I said in one of my responses to Bob—Communication is not FL's strong suit Stick out tongue

Posts 2824
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2015 3:05 PM

Dan Francis:

Michael Childs:

If the new policy works to FL's financial advantage and strengthens the company, well and good.  It will continue.  And in the long run, we benefit from a stronger FL company.

If the new policy hurts sells to the point that it is counterproductive to FL, then the policy will be modified or dropped.

I found myself asking do I get Anglican Portfolio right away. The changes would have meant a delay of a few months before purchasing it. Not the end of the world. I will admit with a bigger initial outlay it will have me think twice... That said it is not a bad thing. The people like myself who add onto existing plans may well be the biggest problem, but I do feel for people who suddenly rather than going with GOLD decide BRONZE is all they can afford at this time because it is a 25% down... That said I do understand the reasoning behind this move fully and in the end may create better levels of stewardship for both people and Faithlife. 

-Dan

  There must have been some kind of failure to understand between FL sales and the company in general.  Nearly every time I added a product to an existing payment plan, it was because a sales rep emailed me (repeatedly) with offers to do so.  And it was a big help to me personally.  But from Bob's statements, it seems like different departments in company were working at cross purposes.  In other words, I do not feel like we were the problem.

In fact, I received such emails just last week, which I replied to and declined their kind offer.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2015 3:12 PM

Michael Childs:

Dan Francis:

Michael Childs:

If the new policy works to FL's financial advantage and strengthens the company, well and good.  It will continue.  And in the long run, we benefit from a stronger FL company.

If the new policy hurts sells to the point that it is counterproductive to FL, then the policy will be modified or dropped.

I found myself asking do I get Anglican Portfolio right away. The changes would have meant a delay of a few months before purchasing it. Not the end of the world. I will admit with a bigger initial outlay it will have me think twice... That said it is not a bad thing. The people like myself who add onto existing plans may well be the biggest problem, but I do feel for people who suddenly rather than going with GOLD decide BRONZE is all they can afford at this time because it is a 25% down... That said I do understand the reasoning behind this move fully and in the end may create better levels of stewardship for both people and Faithlife. 

-Dan

  There must have been some kind of failure to understand between FL sales and the company in general.  Nearly every time I added a product to an existing payment plan, it was because a sales rep emailed me (repeatedly) with offers to do so.  And it was a big help to me personally.  But from Bob's statements, it seems like different departments in company were working at cross purposes.  In other words, I do not feel like we were the problem.

In fact, I received such emails just last week, which I replied to and declined their kind offer.

I find them helpful as well. I don't always say yes, but I've said yes more than no. as a last hurrah, I added Lutheran Platinum, the methodist library builder and the sermon finder collection. But I suspect I won't be adding anything else for a while.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 179
Matthew Langlois | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2015 3:52 PM

Just confirmed with my sales rep that the 25% down payment on new purchases applies to any payment plan; be it existing or introductory.

Nice to know I've had Collector's Edition, Master Bundle Xl and Verbum Capstone along with may other things locked in before this.  At least in the future, with a little budgeting I will be knocking 25% off the total and have fewer, less expensive monthly payments as a result of this policy change.

Peace

Posts 352
Cynthia Tucker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2015 9:20 AM

Bob, two questions:

1. How does this work if I have a Logos credit that equals the 25% purchase price? Could I use that or would I still have to pay it out of my own funds?

2. Does the 25% have to be paid on the day you make the order, or is it just the first payment the following month?

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2015 9:40 AM

David Taylor Jr:

For the record, it has bothered me that several users have talked about living within means. Being on a payment plan does not mean that you are not living within your means. Using credit does not mean you are not living within your means.

Now, if you abuse those things then yes, you aren't living within your means. But if you budget out and know what you can reasonably accommodate, that IS living within your means.

I have done payment plans before because of my school. There are commentaries where it was cheaper to get a base package on a payment plan than to buy individual items necessary for the class.  That is being a good steward

Great comment!

The other thing I thought about is this whole idea of a constant, predictable revenue stream that would work better for Faithlife than revenue spikes when large new things are released and draught periods in between. A widescale adoption of payment plans will be exactly that. "How do we pay the monthly charges for our servers, and the employee's salaries in January?" will not be answered with "Dunno, let's see how the Christmas Sale works" but with "Stay cool, all of that cash will come in through payment plans, as always". Maybe the negotiations with the publishers should include a discussion about when Faithlife has to pay them royalties when the books sold are sold on a payment plan.   

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2015 9:50 AM

Cynthia Tucker:

Bob, two questions:

1. How does this work if I have a Logos credit that equals the 25% purchase price? Could I use that or would I still have to pay it out of my own funds?

2. Does the 25% have to be paid on the day you make the order, or is it just the first payment the following month?

Hopefully Bob will answer but I am quite sure I saw Dan P. say the Logos that credit could be used as he stated the Logos Book Cache could be built up to pay for the 25%. My understanding is the 25% is required when the item is purchased, that said I could be wrong and Bob or someone will hopefully clarify for you.

-Dan

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2015 10:07 AM

David Taylor Jr:

Being on a payment plan does not mean that you are not living within your means. Using credit does not mean you are not living within your means.

Now, if you abuse those things then yes, you aren't living within your means. But if you budget out and know what you can reasonably accommodate, that IS living within your means.

Point well taken. You're in the minority. Praise the Lord and pay your bills.

Oh, I do recall a statement that says, the borrower is a slave to the lender. Maybe Bob, read it with a degree of understanding. 

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2015 10:01 PM

NB.Mick:

David Taylor Jr:

For the record, it has bothered me that several users have talked about living within means. Being on a payment plan does not mean that you are not living within your means. Using credit does not mean you are not living within your means.

Now, if you abuse those things then yes, you aren't living within your means. But if you budget out and know what you can reasonably accommodate, that IS living within your means.

I have done payment plans before because of my school. There are commentaries where it was cheaper to get a base package on a payment plan than to buy individual items necessary for the class.  That is being a good steward

Great comment!

The other thing I thought about is this whole idea of a constant, predictable revenue stream that would work better for Faithlife than revenue spikes when large new things are released and draught periods in between. A widescale adoption of payment plans will be exactly that. "How do we pay the monthly charges for our servers, and the employee's salaries in January?" will not be answered with "Dunno, let's see how the Christmas Sale works" but with "Stay cool, all of that cash will come in through payment plans, as always". Maybe the negotiations with the publishers should include a discussion about when Faithlife has to pay them royalties when the books sold are sold on a payment plan.   

Both FL and I have benefitted by their credit offerings. I don't mind the $5 month fee at all...happy to pay it. I know for a fact that I wouldn't be a Collector's Edition owner without it. Same goes for about 80% of my current library. As others have said, this will cause my new purchases to grind to practically zero. That's thousands of dollars I would have spent that won't get spent at all. I clearly agree with David's comments.

I also agree fully with NB.Nick...Logos may need to play hardball with the publishers. I suggest that FL draw deliberate attention to the coming precipitous nose dive in revenue that the publishers will experience at the end of the next couple of quarters as an impetus to renegotiate the payment system they have arranged with FL. For systems to mesh without tearing each other apart, they have to be geared similarly. Right now, it is the publishers whose expectations are causing harmonic distortion to the system. The changes Bob has implemented will solve a subset of problems going forward, but I suspect it will generate a far worse problem as a consequence...a drastic drop in sales. If the publishers are the mindless bureaucrats I take them for, then that will likely be the way of the world for the forseeable future. But maybe, just maybe, some quick-thinking number crunchers in the bowels of these monstrous publishing beasts will soon realize that the cascading stream of Logos revenue just tanked hard and begin to wonder if there is something that can be done to revive it. Making adjustments to their payment schedules is the only thing that will solve that problem, from what I can see. Allowing a 50% distribution over two quarters would solve this problem or at least reduce the issue considerably. FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED, I STRONGLY URGE LOGOS TO PURSUE THIS COURSE OF ACTION.

Hopefully, something closer to the way things were until recently can be restored. Otherwise, my $35-40K to this point is all she wrote. That sound you hear rising in the distance is the fat lady's aria. Hopefully, the publishers will see fit to give her a severe case of laryngitis. Sadly, I have my doubts.

Posts 235
C M | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2015 11:21 PM

David Paul:

The changes Bob has implemented will solve a subset of problems going forward, but I suspect it will generate a far worse problem as a consequence...a drastic drop in sales. If the publishers are the mindless bureaucrats I take them for, then that will likely be the way of the world for the forseeable future. But maybe, just maybe, some quick-thinking number crunchers in the bowels of these monstrous publishing beasts will soon realize that the cascading stream of Logos revenue just tanked hard and begin to wonder if there is something that can be done to revive it. Making adjustments to their payment schedules is the only thing that will solve that problem, from what I can see. Allowing a 50% distribution over two quarters would solve this problem or at least reduce the issue considerably. FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED, I STRONGLY URGE LOGOS TO PURSUE THIS COURSE OF ACTION.

Hopefully, something closer to the way things were until recently can be restored. Otherwise, my $35-40K to this point is all she wrote. That sound you hear rising in the distance is the fat lady's aria. Hopefully, the publishers will see fit to give her a severe case of laryngitis. Sadly, I have my doubts 

From a user’s point of view:

David,

Your hope to keep things the way they are with the above suggestion is a possible way to consider. I sure Bob would take your suggestion with a degree of seriousness and do what is best the Logos customers and Faithlife Corp. Let’s keep in mind that Bob has to keep his eyes ON THE WHOLE FOREST (FL’s survivability, cash flow, & relations) and NOT JUST ONE TREE (payment plan—showing signs of being outdated) in the forest.

 Many people trust Bob personally and an equal number trust his judgment to do what is best for all in the long term. Bob can do only what’s in his power in light of his relationship with various publishers. I believe for Bob to bring this new payment plan changes to the Logos customers (he’d probably tried what you suggested), there is no other viable way out. Let do what we can to hold up his hands. We are all in the same boat. We’re just in different positions. When Bob makes it, we have made it and will continue to get millions of books, yet to be purchased.

P.S.    Bob can and will speak for himself.

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Sascha John | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2015 11:59 PM

Could someone explain to me is this just the Case if I put Recources to a runnig Payment Plan? So if I have a Payment Plan running for 27 Month and put a new Book to it I have to pay 25% of the Price of the new Book.

Or is it for every ne Payment Plan?

With my Budget...and my Wifes Wisdom ;-) it's the Rule first pay the Payment Plan off and after this you could have a new Payment Plan.

In the Time till then, you can pay with Credits or extra Money.

Greetings

Sascha

Who also dit'nt know why you should put Prepubs to Payment Plans

Posts 1966
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 19 2015 4:32 AM

Sascha John:

Could someone explain to me is this just the Case if I put Recources to a runnig Payment Plan? So if I have a Payment Plan running for 27 Month and put a new Book to it I have to pay 25% of the Price of the new Book.

Or is it for every ne Payment Plan?

The way I understand it, anything you put on any payment plan will now require a 25% down payment.  The other kicker that will affect you is that if you add anything to your current payment plan, it will have to be converted to a 12 month plan.  I guess they are doing away with plans over 12 months.  You could however just start a new plan, requiring an additional $5 per month, but I believe that would keep your existing 27 month plan untouched.  This is per an email from my rep.

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

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