http://blog.logos.com/archives/2010/02/lower_prices_on_zondervan_titles_and_discounts_for_pradis_users.html
Be sure to read all the details.
Only available by phone order to verify Pradis ownership.
Only 1 order may be placed for the Pradis discount. Plan what you want to buy and place one order.
Thank you Zondervan and Logos for responding to your customers!
This discount is a joke! Pradis users will end paying more than double their resources. If I bought the whole prepub package with the 40% it would cost me more than I originally spent. What a ripoff! But then again it's Zondervan so we should not be surprised.
Nothing for those who bought Zondervan products before Pradis??
I hear you, Mark. I had the EBC and the theological dictionaries before Pradis and then when I got it, I didn't want to pay for them again. I hope Logos or Zondervan (whichever) would see this issue differently.
I hope Logos will see this issue clearly.
This is not a Logos issue, but a Zondervan one.
I hope Logos will see this issue clearly. This is not a Logos issue, but a Zondervan one.
Yes - please everyone remember that Logos does not get to call the shots on this one. Typical Zondervan...
Jerry
http://blog.logos.com/archives/2010/02/lower_prices_on_zondervan_titles_and_discounts_for_pradis_users.html Be sure to read all the details. Only available by phone order to verify Pradis ownership. Only 1 order may be placed for the Pradis discount. Plan what you want to buy and place one order. Thank you Zondervan and Logos for responding to your customers!
Does anyone know if the pictorial encyclopedia is included in this discount? Since it replaces an older version I didn't know if this would qualify for an upgrade or if they consider it an entirely new product.
Thanks
In other news, a new edition of my favorite book just came out!
I wonder when the publisher's going to send me my free or heavily discounted copy just because I bought the previous edition?
For what its worth, we're starting to sound like we're a privileged minority or something. We expect special treatment that no other print-book buyers are getting.
I think we should be happy with the discount we're getting, because in my opinion, Zondervan would still be following normal publishing practices if they didn't decide to cater to the Logos community.
In other news, a new edition of my favorite book just came out! I wonder when the publisher's going to send me my free or heavily discounted copy just because I bought the previous edition? For what its worth, we're starting to sound like we're a privileged minority or something. We expect special treatment that no other print-book buyers are getting. I think we should be happy with the discount we're getting, because in my opinion, Zondervan would still be following normal publishing practices if they didn't decide to cater to the Logos community.
You are comparing apples to oranges
The last time I checked, print books do not need compatibility with successive generations of OSes, nor do they need technical support or periodic updates.when customers buy a software, there is an reasonable expectation that the product will be supported and that they will be able to use it as long as the company exists (even if they have to pay for an engine upgrade). By ending support of Pradis in a few months, Zondervan has put in a place a programmed obsolescence of the resources in Pradis format.
I do hope that you are not one of those who are not Pradis users or only possess a few resources because it is just too easy to give lessons when one did not heavily invest in a product and faces the prospect of have to pay the same price or more just to ensure the longevity of his or her resources.
Alain
You can please some of the people some of the time.... But never all of the people all of the time... (I do feel bad for current Pradis users)
-A few years ago Pradis owners certainly were satisfied with the money they had spent investing into the program... Now that program is worth very little because the company has decided to stop supporting it.
-This whole issue has reminded me that we could all be in the same boatat some point in the future... What has happened here withZondervan/Pradis could one day happen to Logos/L4... Lets all hope not.
I post here again what I put in the parallel thread:
I join my voice to the chorus of disappointed owner of Pradis resources. The one resource that I own and would really like to have in Logos is the NIDOTTE. I bought it in the old days from RJCS for 89.95. The pre-pub price is 159.99 and with the 40% it comes to 95.99.
On top of this, this announcement has been very long in coming and now it is so close to the expected release of titles in pre-pub that we have to rush to make the decision. Once the titles are off pre-pub, the deal will be even more bitter to swallow.
Ironically, I have a pre-pub ordered that is supposed to come out today. I don't have the money for both right now. Should I cancel my other pre-pub to get NIDOTTE and then pay full-price later on the first product? Should I make this decision now in a rush?
I am also HUGELY disappointed with the limitation that the discount applies only to one combined order. I can understand that there is a time limit (June), but are we supposed to have the financial means to replace all Pradis titles in one shot?
So now is the real question, and it's so many times the same question that comes back again and again: what is the abused customer to do? Shall we boycott and more likely than not have no other result than deprive ourselves of tools we can use for our ministry? Or shall we capitulate and give our money to those who do this kind of things?
I am seriously tempted by the boycott option and may not even have the choice: I don't have the money to make a quick move right now and I am not sure that I would be able to swallow that pill. Will I be able to swallow the even bigger pill when the products are at full price?
One thing I do know: even if I end up purchasing one product I absolutely need, I will not again purchase from them anything else that I don't absolutely need.
You are comparing apples to oranges The last time I checked, print books do not need compatibility with successive generations of OSes, nor do they need technical support or periodic updates.when customers buy a software, there is an reasonable expectation that the product will be supported and that they will be able to use it as long as the company exists (even if they have to pay for an engine upgrade). By ending support of Pradis in a few months, Zondervan has put in a place a programmed obsolescence of the resources in Pradis format. I do hope that you are not one of those who are not Pradis users or only possess a few resources because it is just too easy to give lessons when one did not heavily invest in a product and faces the prospect of have to pay the same price or more just to ensure the longevity of his or her resources.
Alain,
I don't own Pradis, and my investment in Logos at the moment is small compared to most uses. I fully support the digitalization of books and what Logos is doing, yet I have no plans for giving up my print resources just yet, whether I have them digitally or not.
With that said, a book is a book is a book no matter the format its in. Changing the method of consumption doesn't entitle us to special treatment. When cassettes gave way to CDs, or VHS to DVDs, we either upgraded our collection like everyone else or sucked it up and maintained the VCR.
Or, say I bought a print-book that was poorly formatted, had numerous typos, was an eye-sore to look at, and had a cheap binding that wouldn't last a second reading. Then the publisher comes out with a new edition that corrects all those problems but leaves the actual written work unchanged.
Am I entitled to a discount or a free copy because I bought the bad copy that won't last much longer? Of course not. If I want the new edition I have to go out and buy it like everyone else. The only discount I can get is by selling the old copy and using that money to help buy the new one.
This is apples to apples because we buy a book for the information continued within; it doesn't matter if the shell that contains that information becomes obsolete. Its up to us, the consumer, to maintain the shell that we originally bought it in, or bite the bullet and buy the new version. How we consume it is up to us. In as much as the original product meets the expectations and requirements of the publisher, its out of their hands once the customer buys it.
When a book goes digital, we don't automatically get a copy just because we own it in print. The works that Pradis users own still work, and they will continue to work as long as they maintain a computer that can run the program. That's their responsibility, and they knew it when they invested in a digital resource. That's the risk involved with any purchase, not just digital ones. If I became blind, the publishers aren't obligated to provide me with free or discounted Braille editions of all my print-books! That's my responsibility. And yet if they did, I would be incredibly thankful for their charity.
Zondervan went above and beyond what was expected of them, and still they get complaints. We've got this horrible minority complex going that expects special treatment, and its frustrating to see Zondervan bad-mouthed when they've already done more than any other print-publisher would be willing to do for double-dippers.
I think we should be happy with what we've been given.
I don't believe that a discussion about pricing and related policies are a hidden plea for a welfare state in the e-book publishing and distribution market niche. Nor do I think the issue is the consumers of e-book products and their individual purchasing habits which often seems to be the default position of many who defend these players in this market. Rather, I think the question is what these companies owe their loyal customers (especially ones that call themselves Christian) when the market place is becoming dominated by one player. If the answer is that companies owe their customers nothing what does that say about the whole notion of a "christian" company and what consumers owe such companies?
I do not agree with this statement. I say there is a big difference in the format. When updating a book does not require printing, storing the newly upgraded book in a warehoue, and shipping the new book via UPS/USPS then yes there is a BIG difference in the format. Since the are doing the update anyway in order to produce a quality product for first time customers, then giving that update to previous customers does not cost very much more. The only real cost to the person producing the book is digital storage of the book. They are going to do this no matter what the former customers do. So this is not an additional cost to the company to support old customers. Second, sending me the new book costs a very small amount of money in bandwidth charges. I doubt Logos is paying per MB. But it might cost them more to have enough bandwidth to be able to support both old and new customers. So I understand them getting a fee for this kind of thing. Also they have to pay someone to check the records and make sure that I am a previous Zondervan customers. So I am happy to pay to cover that cost. But I doubt that it is $129.99 to cover the costs of these things for the EBC.
But you never owned it in Logos. You still own your Pradis and now you get a discount to get it in Logos
This might ease the pain. I just got off the phone with Sales to ensure I got the 40% on my EBC and he said that I qualified for 40% on all of it. Since I own EBC I could get 40% off the entire package after the new lower price. It makes it just a little over $1,070. I added the NIV Application Commentary to my EBC and am now less disappointed than I was.
Kevin,
Thank you for responding. I think you are emphasizing the digital part of these digital resources, and that's where the difference lies. We're not paying for the shell, or how we consume it. We're paying for the information contained within that shell. And that stays the same regardless of how we chose to consume it.
If I don't like how I'm consuming an old version of a book, I can go buy a newer one. If I don't like my cassettes, I can go buy the CD or download the album from iTunes. Does the information change at all? Not at all, but I still have to pay for it if I chose to consume it differently.
I'm all for passing on savings publishers experience by going from hard-copy to digital, but expecting that the information contained within the delivery model is somehow worth less because its in a different medium goes against our experience with any other type of similar purchase.
Going from Pradis to Logos is like going from cheap paperback to elegant leather. We're upgrading and still getting an awesome discount on the Pre-Pub price no less! This is a gift!
Let's stop being offended that publishers have families to feed too and start being satisfied with what we have.
Let's stop being offended that publishers have families to feed too
Off-topic, inappropriate and all that stuff but this is too good an opportunity to pass up. That's why we used MONKS before the printing press.[:D]
publishers have families to feed too
Rupert Murdoch — Net Worth: ▲$8.3 Billion
publishers have families to feed too Rupert Murdoch — Net Worth: ▲$8.3 Billion
He must have a very large familty to feed [:D]
I am not too upset by the 40% discount. I am am, however, unable to buy the package, in one lump sum, by June.
They might make more money off of me if they
I may just have to pass on most, if not all, of Zondervan for the next couple years.
I think they tried, but they will miss getting much out of customers like me. I think they could have gotten more from me with slightly different terms.
Jacob, you might feel differently if you had invested nearly a thousand dollars in Pradis then you discover it will cost you another $1000 to change software platforms. In my opinion it's not right or fair. I'm simply expressing my opinion. I will continue to use Pradis for as long as possible. I will not pay twice for the same resources. I want Zondervan to know how I feel about they have treated me as a customer. I think Zondercrooks pretty much covers that.
I think that folks who have not spent in Pradis products might want to refrain from lecturing those who have about how they should feel. The fact is that Zondervan decided to start a line of products and establish a customer base for it. We in good faith have invested in it. They let us down first by a practically inexistent platform development and customer service. That meant -- among other things -- that as new operating systems came out, they had little to offer to keep up with the times. Then, they dropped us altogether.
I still have tapes and have lots of CDs and they have not become obsolete in a matter of a few years. My investment was rewarded and I will keep enjoying them for a while yet. Sure, I can keep on using Pradis for now. But for how long? Without any further updates, the product is at the end of life.
If Zondervan was a small company that went belly up, this would be an understandable misfortune. But that is not the case. They dropped us as customers because they never really invested themselves as seriously in their software as they held promise.
I would like to see some of the philosophers on this forum reason as they do if in 3 years Logos does the same to us. I don't believe that they will, but the point is, this is what Zondervan did to Pradis customers. How would the members of the 1K club and above feel if Logos said "sorry, we're closing shop. But Bibleworks will take all our titles and we encourage you to transition with them. They offer a discount too: you'd have to pay twice as much as you already have with us, but rejoice, they kindly offer you a 40% discount!"
Let's be real here. I know that there are some around here who have loads more of monies to spend on Bible software. Perhaps this seems immaterial to them. But many others are working with very modest means, and it hurts to see our investment go up it flames and customer trust being so poorly rewarded.
This being said, blessings be on you!
I think that folks who have not spent in Pradis products might want to refrain from lecturing those who do about how they should feel. I would like to see some of the philosophers on this forum reason as they do if in 3 years Logos does the same to us. Let's be real here. I know that there are some around here who have loads more of monies to spend on Bible software. Perhaps this seems immaterial to them. But many others are working with very modest means, and it hurts to see our investment go up it flames and customer trust being so poorly rewarded.
I think that folks who have not spent in Pradis products might want to refrain from lecturing those who do about how they should feel.
I would like to see some of the philosophers on this forum reason as they do if in 3 years Logos does the same to us.
My thoughts exactly
Good post
I think that folks who have not spent in Pradis products might want to refrain from lecturing those who do about how they should feel. I would like to see some of the philosophers on this forum reason as they do if in 3 years Logos does the same to us. Let's be real here. I know that there are some around here who have loads more of monies to spend on Bible software. Perhaps this seems immaterial to them. But many others are working with very modest means, and it hurts to see our investment go up it flames and customer trust being so poorly rewarded. My thoughts exactly Good post Alain
Mine too!
Rick
How is it any different if a print publisher goes out of business and their books are bought up by another publisher who releases newer editions? If you wanted the newer editions you'd have to pay full price, right?
Why should that be any different for digital books? Each chapter and each page will have the exact same written content on it, and the only difference will be the publisher who puts out a newer edition. Just like what happens with print books.
We don't get a discount on print books, so why the special treatment for digital?
Greg, this may seem unkind, but did Zondervan go out of business? Or are they trying to make money on the same resources again, at even higher prices than the last time we bought them???
In Christ,
Jim
Hey Terry, where did you get this quote? It doesn't appear to be what Joan said in her post.
I think she said:
" I hope Logos or Zondervan (whichever) would see this issue differently."
That is what happens when somebody quotes your post (freeze framing it into the forum thread) and you come back and edit for a clarity.
It can be good or bad. [:P] Terry could go back and edit his post's quote to reflect her post's subsequent edit but that would be just too much fluxy.
It can be good or bad. Terry could go back and edit his post's quote
Nah, I will just let people think that I made up her quote to badmouth her. [:P]
Has ANYONE actually purchase Z products as a former Pradis user (registered)? Did your 40% discount apply to what you had registered, or to ANY former Pradis product you purchased from Logos? The Logos blog would say you can't do that, but the Z press release implies/says you can. It is poorly worded if they mean something other than all new Logos/z products are up for grabs at 40% (if you are a registered Pradis user, and whether or not you owned all titles previously in Pradis that you plan to purchase in Logos).
Help, anyone?
Has ANYONE actually purchase Z products as a former Pradis user (registered)? Did your 40% discount apply to what you had registered, or to ANY former Pradis product you purchased from Logos? The Logos blog would say you can't do that, but the Z press release implies/says you can. It is poorly worded if they mean something other than all new Logos/z products are up for grabs at 40% (if you are a registered Pradis user, and whether or not you owned all titles previously in Pradis that you plan to purchase in Logos). Help, anyone?
See kevin's post from the previous page in this thread: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/11953/93558.aspx#93558
Has ANYONE actually purchase Z products as a former Pradis user (registered)? Did your 40% discount apply to what you had registered, or to ANY former Pradis product you purchased from Logos? The Logos blog would say you can't do that, but the Z press release implies/says you can. It is poorly worded if they mean something other than all new Logos/z products are up for grabs at 40% (if you are a registered Pradis user, and whether or not you owned all titles previously in Pradis that you plan to purchase in Logos). Help, anyone? See kevin's post from the previous page in this thread: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/11953/93558.aspx#93558
So Kevin got all on discount, even though he only (apparently) owned the EBC? Thanks for the reminder, Todd. I had read Purcell's comments yesterday, but so much water has gone under the bridge. Still, I must say there is a disconnect in the Logos organization. the blog post today CLEARLY says (in the replies/comments) that only on those products that you owned within Pradis.
That meant -- among other things -- that as new operating systems came out, they had little to offer to keep up with the times. Then, they dropped us altogether. I still have tapes and have lots of CDs and they have not become obsolete in a matter of a few years. My investment was rewarded and I will keep enjoying them for a while yet. Sure, I can keep on using Pradis for now. But for how long? Without any further updates, the product is at the end of life.
That meant -- among other things -- that as new operating systems came out, they had little to offer to keep up with the times. Then, they dropped us altogether.
Francis,
An underlying assumption in your post is that Pradis software will soon be obsolete. The reality is, Pradis can live for a long time if you run a virtual machine. Whatever operating system Pradis will run on, you can install that operating system on a virtual machine on your current (or future) operating system. This way, your Pradis investment will still be "rewarded, and [you] can continue enjoying them for a while yet." I know this is not the ideal situation, but neither is keeping a cassette player around just so you can play older media that you purchased years ago.
I got this from a Sales agent at Logos. I was on the phone and he was going to give me the discount on the full package even though I only own EBC in Pradis (and whatever books came with it, which were just a few). The ONLY reason I didn't was that you can't do the monthly payment plan on pre-pub orders.
Off-topic, inappropriate and all that stuff but this is too good an opportunity to pass up. That's why we used MONKS before the printing press.
Love it! [8-|]
Does anyone know if there are any legal issues in converting PRADIS software to PDB ourselves? I wouldn't expect LOGOS to do this for free, but if someone does it themself wouldn't that be fair use?
If I own a CD that I want to hear on my IPOD, I can convert it according to fair use laws, as long as I don't distribute the copies. Are ebooks treated differently?
Jim,
No worries, its not unkind at all.
While I cannot speak on the motives of Zondervan, I think they are doing what every other publisher is doing: Re-releasing the same product in a new package. We're not being compelled to double-dip, but we're given the option and an awesome discount to boot.
And I understand what you mean about Zondervan not going out of business. Perhaps a better analogy would be where a publisher re-releases the same book with better formatting and a stronger binding.
We aren't forced to buy the new book, but if we want a better copy we have to, just like everyone else. But, our old copy still works as long as we take care of it. The information contained within is exactly the same.
So when Zondervan goes from Pradis to Logos, they're upgrading the formatting and binding and leaving the actual information unchanged. If you want the benefits of the new edition, you have to buy it.
The 40% discount is just icing on the cake, in my opinion.
I just don't view digital books any differently than print-books.
Like many of you I own just about everything Zondervan has put out(both 5 and 6). 40% off is a little help but I am a student , pastor and father of three. I can't afford it . It took all I have to get Logos 4. I think both Zondervan and Logos needs to work with us more. This is very discourging
Kyle Brown
Dallas, Texas
If anyone is interested, I posted my thoughts on my blog here:
http://biblesoftwarenewsletter.blogspot.com/2010/02/zondervan-when-publishers-decide-to-be.html
Although it feels that at this point we are rehashing the same arguments over and over again, I am making one more attempt at clarifying the issues for those who -- I don't understand why you do this -- keep arguing against those of us who feel cheated.
1) In a world of sharks, there is no guarantees at all and no concept of loyalty. You pay, you get and that's it. What happens after is either appreciated or not, but as the borg would say "irrelevant".
2) However, it is widely recognized even among the sharks -- in the business world -- that there is such a concept as loyalty in business, based on relationship. Some of the arguers here keep on referring to 1) while we are talking about 2). We're not interested in type 1) arguments, we are complaining about 2).
We know that by the letter of the law, Zondervan has not done anything illegal. By the rule of the shark, we got what we paid for. But from the standpoint of loyalty and relationship, Zondervan is not treating its customers very well (remembering that by buying Zondervan products through Logos, we are STILL Zondervan customers).
The fact is that it is a fair expectation that a reputable company will also be dependable. When you buy an ITouch, you expect your investment to be worth a certain time and that adequate support will be provided for a reasonable length time. Hardware has -- of course -- a much shorter life expectancy than software.
But even software has an end of support cycle, we know that. Still, consider what EVEN Microsoft does (a very profitable company). They don't sell you a product as it is for the current OS and that's it (the shark rule). They release updates and help extend product life over several OS releases. By the time a product support cycle is ended, the customer would not want it anyway because it is obsolete (it is functionality, not content that the software is about).
With regard to Zondervan Pradis product, there is some functionality, but the main product is the content. I did not buy Pradis because it has always been a lousy product (it's not that much better than Ages Software's modified PDFs). I bought NIDOTTE because I wanted it on the computer and ZONDERVAN WOULD NOT let Logos publish its products. We WERE FORCED to go Pradis by Zondervan's monopoly in the first place or renounce electronic access to these resources. I think some of the arguers forget or are not aware of that.
Already at the time, those of us who were Logos users resented this policy from Zondervan and felt that to have access to these biblical resources we had to live with Zondervan's policies. Those who used Logos newsgroups would remember the eternal refrain in suggestions. It went like this: I wish Logos could publish book X. Reply: book X is published by Zondervan, so you can forget it.
So, like it or not, we bought Pradis products. We enjoyed the content with a very limited shell. Finally Zondervan "agrees" to let Logos sell their products. Why? Because they are letting go of Pradis. In other words, no need to protect the monopoly anymore. Logos is growing in popularity, Pradis stinks, so this is where the profit is now. And NOW after forcing the customer's hand, the only option we are given is a discount that makes us buy the product all over again for even more than what we already paid? PLEASE.
Why has Microsoft be brought to trial? Why are there monopoly laws? Is it not because there is the recognition that companies unethically force the customer's hand? If the lines of reasoning used in this forum were applied, then let Microsoft shrewdly secure the market for themselves. And let those who would complain be told: "you don't have to buy Microsoft products, but if you do, that's your choice and that's the way it works, period". Right. The fact is that monopolies are unethical. The fact is that it is unethical for a company to standardize product usage and then take advantage of it through monopoly practices. And Zondervan is a profitable company which business policies don't seem much different than that for which Microsoft has been tried and fined.
I would receive with appreciation and gratitude supportive suggestions. Something like, "I understand your frustration and in the absence of what would be right, could this help...?" Some suggestions are presented in that way. But I do not appreciate the patch-up solutions that are presented as counter-arguments. Also, some of the suggestions are a stretch. Come on, folks, we don't want to have to use duct tape to keep on using our Pradis products.
Why in the world do you guys argue with us who are trying to pass a message to Zondervan here? This is what WE are trying to do. We are not asking for a cure of positive thinking or the spiritual way here.
I don't mean to be abrasive but I am annoyed. I apologize for any offence. Say, do some of you get a commission from Zondervan?
Blessings,
Francis
Francis, except for the last sentence, i thought your perspective, especially the opening half, was very good. Thank you.
I do understand your position. I do normally bypass this topic. What I don't understand, more so on some other topics, is why some think the forums are the appropriate venue of the complaints. If, when I logged into Microsoft development studio forums, I found pages and pages harping on Stylus Studio I would wonder about the quality of Microsoft based upon the image it would give me of Microsoft users. [emoticon of me ducking for cover]
You don't need to duck for cover, MJ. I trust that (my and other) expressions of annoyance can remain within the bounds of respect and courtesy and the grace of Christ our Lord.
Your question is legitimate. I can only speak for myself. The forums have been functioning at several levels, some of which justify a discussion such as this: 1) It's been a place of interaction with Logos, of expression of user's voices. It's been hoped even from the time of the newsgroup that this can also make its way back to Zondervan. 2) It's been a place of community.
The complaints here are not about Logos and should have no incidence on the public image of Logos Bible Software.
PS: The "getting a commission from Zondervan" line was tongue-in-cheek.
I understand your frustration, but I just can't sympathize with it. Its seems you are unhappy because you don't want to pay full price to replace your old dinged up copy of a book with the new glitzy hardcover edition just released.
I'm just trying to remind us all here that this is how its ALWAYS been regarding things we've invested in going obsolete. Is this not true? Anyone ever bought a VHS tape and then been given the chance to upgrade to DVD for a discount price? Anyone bought a cassette and then got the MP3's at a discount? If you buy a digital book, do they automatically give you a discount if you have the print edition in your library already? Logos and their other publishers don't even do that; should we be unhappy with them now? Were any of these ever replaced by the latest and greatest at a discount from the publisher because you had them previously?
I don't think there's a distinction between "sharks" and "loyalty" because taking advantage of double-dippers is the industry standard. Even Logos and their other publishers do this. They don't give you free digital editions just because you have the print-edition in your library. You have to buy them. We're loyal to a book company not because they give us perpetual rights to new updated editions, but because of the quality of resources they offer.
I'm sorry that you feel burned by the current discount program, but what can I say? Are you this unhappy every time a book goes digital that you already have in print-form? Do you get this frustrated if you have to buy the same book AGAIN just to have it on your computer? This is the same: a book is a book is a book, no matter the form.
You get 40% off of the pre-pub price right now, and that's a much better deal than most print-books get when they go digital. I mean, if you had invested a $1000 in print resources, and they went digital for $600, would you be this vocal about it? Or would you just express disappointment that you can't buy the book AGAIN? Would you feel entitled to an even greater discount just because you had them in print? Or would that idea not even cross your mind?
Like I said before, I think we're caught up on the digital aspect of a digital book, and seem to forget that its the book, the information, that we're paying for, and not the shiny new package.
I have often found that to stop head-butting a wall goes a long way in relieving the headache. I opt for Tylenol at this point.
Ultimately the money will be the judge, to Zondervan, if their decision has been a good one or not. (my hope is not)
-Let me say that I am glad/thankful that everyone is not just a sheep who is simply willing to allow companies to lead them wherever they (the companies) dictate.
-Freedom & Capitalism work well together most of the time...
Anyone ever bought a VHS tape and then been given the chance to upgrade to DVD for a discount price
This is not a fair comparison. DVD represented a new technology from VCR, and there was a substantial period of time between these technologies. Z essentially forced anyone who wanted to have their product electronically, to invest in Pradis.
Here's a better analogy; Zondervan basically asked people like Francis to get married, after they accepted their proposal, Zondervan never kissed them, and eventually kicked them out of their house. I never purchased Pradis, but I understand how Francis's would feel. Put yourself in his shoes... If Logos did this to you, you would be just as unhappy.
That said I think that LOGOS was smart to bring these resources into their platform, no matter how you feel about Zondervan. I think that LOGOS has tried to get the best deal possible for their existing customers that had invested in Pradis. I think that it strgethens LOGOS's position in the Bible software industry, which helps all LOGOS users. People like Francis have the right to be unhappy, we who have not invested in Pradis should not try and convince them otherwise.
Blessings
Mark
Although it feels that at this point we are rehashing the same arguments over and over again, I am making one more attempt at clarifying the issues for those who -- I don't understand why you do this -- keep arguing against those of us who feel cheated. Francis, I understand your frustration, but I just can't sympathize with it. Its seems you are unhappy because you don't want to pay full price to replace your old dinged up copy of a book with the new glitzy hardcover edition just released. I'm just trying to remind us all here that this is how its ALWAYS been regarding things we've invested in going obsolete. Is this not true? Anyone ever bought a VHS tape and then been given the chance to upgrade to DVD for a discount price? Anyone bought a cassette and then got the MP3's at a discount? If you buy a digital book, do they automatically give you a discount if you have the print edition in your library already? Logos and their other publishers don't even do that; should we be unhappy with them now? Were any of these ever replaced by the latest and greatest at a discount from the publisher because you had them previously? I don't think there's a distinction between "sharks" and "loyalty" because taking advantage of double-dippers is the industry standard. Even Logos and their other publishers do this. They don't give you free digital editions just because you have the print-edition in your library. You have to buy them. We're loyal to a book company not because they give us perpetual rights to new updated editions, but because of the quality of resources they offer. I'm sorry that you feel burned by the current discount program, but what can I say? Are you this unhappy every time a book goes digital that you already have in print-form? Do you get this frustrated if you have to buy the same book AGAIN just to have it on your computer? This is the same: a book is a book is a book, no matter the form. You get 40% off of the pre-pub price right now, and that's a much better deal than most print-books get when they go digital. I mean, if you had invested a $1000 in print resources, and they went digital for $600, would you be this vocal about it? Or would you just express disappointment that you can't buy the book AGAIN? Would you feel entitled to an even greater discount just because you had them in print? Or would that idea not even cross your mind? Like I said before, I think we're caught up on the digital aspect of a digital book, and seem to forget that its the book, the information, that we're paying for, and not the shiny new package.
Greg,
I am amazed at how much you misunderstand the issues and the nature of Pradis owners’ frustration with Zondervan. The analogies you gave further demonstrate that you do not understand why those who actually bought Pradis products believe that Zondervan let them down.
Bob explanations regarding the Baker prepubs shows that from a business perspective your assertion that “book is a book is a book, no matter the form” could not be more wrong. He pointed to a major difference between digital and print books: the former require a post-sale element in the form of technical support and updates.
The equation is as follows
Print Books = relationship with the publisher ends with the sale (almost no need for post sale support)
Digital Books = relationship with the publisher begins with the sale + technical support intended to insure that the product functions and keeps functioning for a reasonable period of time.
As such, one not only purchases digital books, but one also purchases the expectation of technical support (whether or not it is specified in the EULA)
If Zondervan had merely added Logos as a platform and kept supporting Pradis, no one would have complained since the Digital books’ equation should still be valid (no one complained when the Accordance platform was added by Zondervan a few years ago, why? Pradis was still supported and we had no legitimate expectation that Zondervan needed to do anything for current customers of a supported product)
Since Zondervan has decided to kill Pradis as a platform, the Digital books’ equation is broken: after June, if I have technical issues when trying to install or reinstall the software, if my installation keeps crashing, if it will not start and so on, I have no recourse and cannot call Zondervan for support. This is to say nothing of what might happen as Operating Systems change every few years.
This is where all your analogies fail: a new version of the resource, a new edition, a move from hardcover to paperback does not threaten my ability to use and enjoy the print resources that I already have.
The same cannot be said of the termination of technical support, it effectively puts an expiration date on the resources I have. It would be somewhat understandable if Zondervan was going out of business and was unable to provide technical support, but this is not the case, they are still thriving, are able to provide technical support, but have merely decided not to do so.
If want to continue using my resources, sooner rather than later, I will have no choice but to migrate to another platform . All the analogies (or straw men) that you presented fail to include the necessary element of lack of choice. All the examples you gave were just a matter of preference, our complaint is that we do not have a choice and that Zondervan is forcing our hand: upgrade or lose the ability to use your resource at some point.
For Pradis owners, this is not a philosophical issue we have to solve in order to entertain ourselves, it is not an academic question full of hypothetical cases. We have invested real dollars, and this investment is about to be lost in the near future (hence the need to repurchase the resources in another format)
You have nothing at stake in the whole process maybe that explains why you are so quick to give lessons to those who paid for it using their hard earned dollars. I am glad that you stopped using the “we” as in “we were given a good deal” or “we should be grateful” that I found rather disingenuous since you are not a Pradis owner.
I do not think that the above will change your mind (I am not really saying anything that is new) but you might want to consider whether or not you are helping or just pouring more oil on the fire.
It is interesting to me that the United States Federal government requires automakers to make parts available for 10 years after an auto is produced (I would call that "support", wouldn't you?) However, the software industry is free to kill off anything at any time. Many companies buy out their often better,competitors for the sole purpose of terminating them. Other companies don't have the slightest idea how to support product for the long haul. (Gateway's purchase of Amiga proved that.) I think it morally wrong but they can legally do it.
Zondervan has proven to be a publisher of fine books. I am glad Zondervan is pitching the ball to Logos. I just wish I could afford the switch since my Pradis purchases will be orphaned - or better labeled "adopted."
but one also purchases the expectation of technical support
