Zondercrooks stick it to Pradis users

Any other Praids users angered by the puny Zondercrook's discounts? I own everything in the prepub bundle and more, except for the OT backgrounds commentary. If I purchased the bundle with the discount I would pay more than I originally did!

I wish I could say that I'm surprised but I'm not. I won't be buying anything else from Zondercrooks and I will be sharing my experience with all will listen.

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Comments

J. Morris

The way I read it, Pradis owners get a 40% discount ABOVE the pre-pub discount price. That's not a good deal?

-note: I'm NOT a Pradis user

Richard Crampton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93408#Comment_93408

No it's not. If I purchased the whole bundle with the discount I would end up paying more than I did originally for the very same resources. I already own all those resources and more, except for the OT Backgrounds. Paying again for something I already own does not sound like a good deal to me!

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93410#Comment_93410

Richard, I agree. Zondervan decided to abandon its users and now wants them to pay them MORE than they did originally to continue to use those resources on a supported platform. Fine decision. But when they treated their original pre-Pradis buyers like me with disdain I realized Zondervan didn't care about standing behind their customers. They put their own greed first. Corporate policy apparently.

David Buckham

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93426#Comment_93426

I'm not a Pradis owner, so maybe I misunderstood, but does Pradis stop working at some point? Do you loose your resources? Is Zondervan asking you to buy them again?

Maybe I am wrong, but it has sounded like Zondervan is no longer going to be maintaining Pradis, but the program and resources would still continue to work.

Anytime you buy (or lease) a digital copy of a book from a company, even through Logos, you take the chance that that company will one day be no more or that your resources will not be updated at some point. Some people call that gambling.

I don't see how calling Zondervan names will be of any benefit to anyone.

all about Christ,

David

PS - No, I don't work for nor ever have worked for Zondervan, nor do I have any friends or family that have ever worked there.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93467#Comment_93467

I sometimes read these threads about prices and corporate "christian" practices and wonder what would it take for customers to agree that something was too much? The market seems to be converging on Logos as a standard software application (imo) across several platforms primarily due to its quality and size of the library. We are already seeing increases in mrsp from several e publishers. Just think how much more we are going to pay for the privilege of using what we already have on an ipod or Mac or windows environment. How many more hundreds or thousands or dollars will be expected to spend before we get the relationship between monopoly and price inflation...just my view.

Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93467#Comment_93467

I join my voice to the chorus of disappointed owner of Pradis resources. The one resource that I own and would really like to have in Logos is the NIDOTTE. I bought it in the old days from RJCS for 89.95. The pre-pub price is 159.99 and with the 40% it comes to 95.99.

On top of this, this announcement has been very long in coming and now it is so close to the expected release of titles in pre-pub that we have to rush to make the decision. Once the titles are off pre-pub, the deal will be even more bitter to swallow.

Ironically, I have a pre-pub ordered that is supposed to come out today. I don't have the money for both right now. Should I cancel my other pre-pub to get NIDOTTE and then pay full-price later on the first product? Should I make this decision now in a rush?

I am also HUGELY disappointed with the limitation that the discount applies only to one combined order. I can understand that there is a time limit (June), but are we supposed to have the financial means to replace all Pradis titles in one shot?

So now is the real question, and it's so many times the same question that comes back again and again: what is the abused customer to do? Shall we boycott and more likely than not have no other result than deprive ourselves of tools we can use for our ministry? Or shall we capitulate and give our money to those who do this kind of things?

I am seriously tempted by the boycott option and may not even have the choice: I don't have the money to make a quick move right now and I am not sure that I would be able to swallow that pill. Will I be able to swallow the even bigger pill when the products are at full price?

One thing I do know: even if I end up purchasing one product I absolutely need, I will not again purchase from them anything else that I don't absolutely need.

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93477#Comment_93477

I guess, I see don't see a problem. A 40% discount seems fair to me. I will not be using it as I can not afford to update at this point. I will continue to use my paper and Pradis copies of what I own, That does not mean the price is not fair, just that it is outside of my budget right now.

Blessings,

Floyd

Steve Robinson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93481#Comment_93481

I guess, I see don't see a problem. A 40% discount seems fair to me. I will not be using it as I can not afford to update at this point. I will continue to use my paper and Pradis copies of what I own, That does not mean the price is not fair, just that it is outside of my budget right now.

Blessings,

Floyd

The problem for me is simple and straight-forward when you take a step back and look at the big picture.

Like a lot of Bible Software companies, Z offers a big discount when you buy one of their "packaged" libraries. I purchased both the Teacher's and Pastor's Library and the Understanding the Bible libraries. No one in their right mind would have bought each of the books individually, as the combined package price was... (wait for it) around 40% off the price if you'd bought each of the resources individually at retail via the download method. So, in essence, I'd be paying for the package all over again.

It's that simple.

My plan is to wait and see when Zondervan announces their new packages in Libronix format (which is what my understanding of the deal involved) and then make a decision. I have no doubt that I will purchase a few of the resources I currently have in Pradis to take advantage of the search and study abilities in Logos 4, but as for a complete upgrade (i.e. repurchase), we'll see.

Steve R.

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93485#Comment_93485

Well let me see I bought my EBC at the end of the year, when they were updating the program the next year, for 40 dollars.

The EBC now costs 130 dollars but since I was with Zondervan all those years I get a 40% discount, which is minus 52 dollars which means I only pay 78 dollars. Which is not a bad buy, but wait a minute it is still almost twice what I paid for EBC when I got it on a good deal, and before I forget that 40% off actually cost me 40 dollars or I would not have gotten it for only 78 dollars, so if I add that 40 dollars on to the 78 dollars I can get the EBC in Logos for only 118 dollar because I was a Zondervan fannnnn!

At least I did not just buy my EBC last year before Zondervan was closing their program out, I could have spent 70 dollars at a good price at the discount places for my EBC and my new Logos upgrade would have only cost me 148 dollars to get the Logos EBC!!!

Wait a minute, what if I had bought the EBC last year at the normal price in a regular Christian book store??? For the retail price of 129 dollars, Then my new upgrade to Logos would only be 207 dollars! Now that really would make one thankful to be a Zondervan fannnn!

It might just pay to wait and see what the EBC will cost at the discount places later this year, will it be more or less than the 78 dollar buy that I had to spend 40 dollars to get???

I think for a lot of folks they were hoping for more from Zondervan.

In Christ,

Jim

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93539#Comment_93539

I am a pradis owner and will be taking advantage of the discount. I am very grateful for it. When I originally purchased my pradis resources I knew they weren't in Logos and that Zondervan had historically forced people to buy again. But bargain was great and I have gottne good use out of it.. Zondervan owed me nothing and I get a discount. I'm grateful.

Richard Crampton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93546#Comment_93546

Jacob, you might feel differently if you had invested nearly a thousand dollars in Pradis then you discover it will cost you another $1000 to change software platforms. In my opinion it's not right or fair. I'm simply expressing my opinion. I will continue to use Pradis for as long as possible. I will not pay twice for the same resources. I want Zondervan to know how I feel about they have treated me as a customer. I think Zondercrooks pretty much covers that.

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93475#Comment_93475

I sometimes read these threads about prices and corporate "christian" practices and wonder what would it take for customers to agree that something was too much? The market seems to be converging on Logos as a standard software application (imo) across several platforms primarily due to its quality and size of the library. We are already seeing increases in mrsp from several e publishers. Just think how much more we are going to pay for the privilege of using what we already have on an ipod or Mac or windows environment. How many more hundreds or thousands or dollars will be expected to spend before we get the relationship between monopoly and price inflation...just my view.

Rene,

At times, I have had the fleeting thought of "what would happen if some of us just put are foot down and said 'Too expensive therefore we won't buy it"

I like your analysis, thanks for your perspective.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93637#Comment_93637

I sometimes read these threads about prices and corporate "christian" practices and wonder what would it take for customers to agree that something was too much? The market seems to be converging on Logos as a standard software application (imo) across several platforms primarily due to its quality and size of the library. We are already seeing increases in mrsp from several e publishers. Just think how much more we are going to pay for the privilege of using what we already have on an ipod or Mac or windows environment. How many more hundreds or thousands or dollars will be expected to spend before we get the relationship between monopoly and price inflation...just my view.

Rene,

At times, I have had the fleeting thought of "what would happen if some of us just put are foot down and said 'Too expensive therefore we won't buy it"

I like your analysis, thanks for your perspective.

Thank you for your kind words

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93613#Comment_93613

Jacob, you might feel differently if you had invested nearly a thousand dollars in Pradis then you discover it will cost you another $1000 to change software platforms. In my opinion it's not right or fair. I'm simply expressing my opinion. I will continue to use Pradis for as long as possible. I will not pay twice for the same resources. I want Zondervan to know how I feel about they have treated me as a customer. I think Zondercrooks pretty much covers that.

I'm not disagreeing with you that you got ripped off. That's why I did my best to avoid Pradis and get digital titles exclusively in Logos. Didn't they re-charge you for items if you wanted to upgrade to a newer version of Pradis? I'm not trying to minimize the ripoff factor, just pointing out that when we bought Pradis we knew we weren't buying a perpetual license for a resource across platforms, but rather buying a license for a book on a single version of a piece of software with no guarantee of future upgrades. I do not think that's how business should be done, but that's my understanding of how Zondervan decided to do things. So now, this purchase of a Logos resource is quite different than what we purchased from Z in the past.

So the frustration directed at Zondervan should not be new...having us rebuy our resources is not new. But now we are buying resources that we will not have to buy again because they are Logos-compatible.

Daniel Bender

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93673#Comment_93673

Not really replying to anyone specific. I am a little disappointed in the
discount--thought it should be more. I owned EBC and the Bible Study cd
(included titles like Enclopedia of Bible Difficulties, UBS 4, Nave's,
New International Commentary, and a few others). When I started losing
some of the functionality of the software I upgraded to Pradis. However, I was
told that the only software that was eligible for an upgrade was EBC. The cost
was $25. My other Z products were not eligible because Z did not have any
compatible products currently available. I was happy to get EBC in the Pradis
platform for only $25. Subsequently, I added NIDOTTE, NIDNTT, NIVAC NT, and
NIVAC OT Prophets for an additional $480 ($505 with the EBC upgrade).

Three weeks ago I called Zondervan tech support with a software issue. Although he
was unable to help me, I asked him if he had heard anything about the discount
for Pradis users moving onto the Logos platform. He told me that the standard
upgrade price for Z product owners was a $25 upgrade fee--something which I
already knew. He did stress that he did not know what the company was planning
on doing only that the standard fee is $25 per item. I was not expecting that
kind of a discount to carry over for this situation, but I do think that they
could have done much better than the 40% discount that is being offered. My
discount price for the items that I am currently using in digital format is
$464. That's a lot of money for resources I am already using--albeit in an
inferior format (and yes I know 40% is 40%).

I do believe it would be wrong and ungrateful not to thank Logos for their
work in getting us the best discount they could. Thank you Logos; you have the
best customer service I have experienced.

Sincerely,

Daniel Bender

Note: This is my third attempt to post this reply (page wouldn't refresh and lost my reply)--i.e. this response is not as well thought out as my first attempt. I would really like to have my Pardis products in Logos 4 but the cost for me is a huge hurdle and it means giving up some of the pre-pubs I would like to add to my library this year.

David Mullens

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93703#Comment_93703

This is my main issue with any electronic resource. I love Logos (never had Pradis), but I hate that if Logos ever decides to go a different direction, or go out of business. I'm stuck. I loose my resources.

I love the ability to do searches and having my entire library on my computer. In some ways I think it is cheaper purchasing the electronic sources that it is the paper resources. Yet, I can keep those books around for decades (well, I guess there is always the chance of fire/flood).

In many ways we are dependent on the company to do the right thing. Zondervan, as far as I know, is not a "christian" company. They are owned by HarperCollins. I believe they started out as a Christian company, but I believe that ended a while back if I remember correctly.

Perhaps the best thing about Logos is that they are not a publishing company making an electronic version of their products, but rather a software company licensing books...although if the license holder decides not to allow Logos to license the books...there is trouble there too.

Don't get me started on kindle vs. nook vs. iBook. In the end...we don't _own_ anything...I guess we only purchase the right to use it as long as the rights holder decides we can use it

DominicM

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94981#Comment_94981

This is my main issue with any electronic resource. I love Logos (never had Pradis), but I hate that if Logos ever decides to go a different direction, or go out of business. I'm stuck. I loose my resources.

True, its a risk we all take.. It was heavily debated during the early beta period...

Let me put it your concern a different way back to you, if you lost your paper copy of your favorite book or sadly lost your library to flood, fire or "Act of God" as the insurance compaies say, if that book or some titles are now out of print, its also unlikely you might find a replacement, and if you do will cost you a great deal more than you originally paid, so its the same arguement IMO.

However, with Logos 4 digital, your library can be re-downloaded easily onto your new laptop, that said, its important for us all be good stewards of our PC's and to keep a regular backup of our books... just incase the server did go down.

Richard Crampton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94983#Comment_94983

I have emailed Zondervan with my concerns but of course they have not bothered to answer. Here's the email for anyone else who would like to contact them, jason.vines@zondervan.com

Here's what I wrote:

Dear Jason Vines,

I own almost all of the resources Zondervan produced in Pradis format. I was very disappointed to hear that the Pradis platform would no longer be supported since I have invested nearly a $1000. Someday, in the not too distant future, my software and resources will be worthless. My investment will be lost.

Yes, there is a solution. Spend over a thousand dollars and repurchase the resources on the new software platform, Logos. That's about what it would cost me with the 40 percent discount and prepub pricing. To be honest it makes me angry. So angry that I will not being purchasing anything else produced by Zondervan.

My feelings probably makes little difference to a large company like Zondervan. They may be publishers of Christian resources but they certainly don't operate by Christian principles.

Thanks for listening,

Pastor Rick Crampton

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/95693#Comment_95693

I have emailed Zondervan with my concerns but of course they have not bothered to answer. Here's the email for anyone else who would like to contact them, jason.vines@zondervan.com

Here's what I wrote:

Dear Jason Vines,

I own almost all of the resources Zondervan produced in Pradis format. I was very disappointed to hear that the Pradis platform would no longer be supported since I have invested nearly a $1000. Someday, in the not too distant future, my software and resources will be worthless. My investment will be lost.

Yes, there is a solution. Spend over a thousand dollars and repurchase the resources on the new software platform, Logos. That's about what it would cost me with the 40 percent discount and prepub pricing. To be honest it makes me angry. So angry that I will not being purchasing anything else produced by Zondervan.

My feelings probably makes little difference to a large company like Zondervan. They may be publishers of Christian resources but they certainly don't operate by Christian principles.

Thanks for listening,

Pastor Rick Crampton

Richard, you did a pretty good job of summing up your thoughts and feelings on the matter. One area that might add to that is to ask for his input: (take your pick) if anything could be done for customers in your situation, or for clarification on Zondervan's rationale for dropping the platform and asking customers like you to spend more than you (may) have for yet another platform, etc. Whether or not you get a response, hard to say (and there could be multiple reasons for that), but it always helps to ask for something specific. Otherwise it appears that you just wanted to say your piece and be done with it.

Richard Crampton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/95744#Comment_95744

Thought I would revive this thread since Zondercrook's stuff is finally shipping. I really have nothing new to say except that Zondercrooks never answered my email. Not really surprised. I'm not angry anymore but as I said before I definitely will not be buying any more Zondercrook resources. This is one customer they have lost forever,[:D]

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104919#Comment_104919

Well, I had EBC on Paper, and that will find a home in the Library of a friend. I had Pradis version of it and that has already been given away to be used as long as it will work. I now have EBC in Logos format and I am happy with the discount/pricing that Logos/Zondervan gave me.

You have every right to your frustration and beliefs Richard, I just personally don't share them.

Richard Crampton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104922#Comment_104922

Glad for you Terry;) If I only had the EBC I would not be nearly as frustrated but I own a $1000 dollars worth of Pradis resources which would cost me over a $1000 to update. The fact is some of I what I have is not even upgradeable.

David N.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94981#Comment_94981

2011/01/29

Hi David,

You bring up so many good and worthwhile points!

This is my main issue with any electronic resource. I love Logos (never had Pradis), but I hate that if Logos ever decides to go a different direction, or go out of business. I'm stuck. I loose my resources.
I love the ability to do searches and having my entire library on my computer. In some ways I think it is cheaper purchasing the electronic sources that it is the paper resources. Yet, I can keep those books around for decades (well, I guess there is always the chance of fire/flood).

I am a Logos 4 Scholar's Gold "owner", so I am very heavily invested in Logos andI would definitely be stuck if Logos went out of business or "dead ended" as we've seen with some Bible study companies / software (as in the case of Pradis.)

I also own BibleWorks and I saw a very interesting article on the BibleWorks website having to do with the debate over purchasing electronic resources as opposed to paper resources. The article is called: "The Digital Ice Age" on the Popular Mechanics website. You can see it here:
[url=http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/news/4201645]Digital Ice Age Article[/url]

I was pleasantly surprised with the stance of the folks at BibleWorks who cautioned their customers against purchasing too many digital resources without having the physical paper version as a backup.

In many ways we are dependent on the company to do the right thing. Zondervan, as far as I know, is not a "christian" company. They are owned by HarperCollins. I believe they started out as a Christian company, but I believe that ended a while back if I remember correctly.
Perhaps the best thing about Logos is that they are not a publishing company making an electronic version of their products, but rather a software company licensing books...

I am very concerned about some of the practices that I see Logos adopting, which to me, are not the business practices of a Christian company. One of which is charging a fee ($20 per Resource - last I knew) to transfer ownership of a product to someone else. This is a fairly new practice by Logos. Previously there was no charge to transfer ownership of your resources to someone else and in my opinion, this is immoral. More on this in a moment under your comment concerning licensing.

...although if the license holder decides not to allow Logos to license the books...there is trouble there too.

I ran into this issue with another Bible study software program. I have also substantially invested in "PC Study Bible" by Biblesoft and I have been with Biblesoft from the days of 3.5" disks. I made a purchase of a Resource from a third-party company back in PCSB version 2 days. Then when PCSB version 3 came out - I no longer had access to this particular Resource. I called Biblesoft and found out that because of licensing problems with the copyright holder AND because of questions in regard to the acceptability of this Resource (by corporate Biblesoft), it would no longer be supported.

There are two issues here: 1) The "End User" / customer is then subject to the whims of the squabbles between corporations - and directly impacted even though the customer has had no chance for input into the decision (as in the case of licensing issues stated here.) and 2) Biblesoft decided what was OK for me to have in my library - when they should not have any "say" in what I have once I have the program on my computer and if I purchase items from a third party!

So from my personal experience, I am concerned about similar issues with Logos. Especially since now, with Logos 4 - we no longer have easy access to our licenses (as we did with Libronix 3) and for whatever reason, since our licensing is on the Logos servers, we might not have access to our library or portions of our library at the corporate Logos level - without our input.

Don't get me started on kindle vs. nook vs. iBook. In the end...we don't _own_ anything...I guess we only purchase the right to use it as long as the rights holder decides we can use it

A further example here of my own personal experience is that I purchased
an add-on of Microsoft Access for Microsoft Office on eBay and I
registered my product with Microsoft and had many months of "genuine" Microsoft updates and support.
One day I went to do an Office Update - and Microsoft informed me that
my copy of Access was no longer "genuine!" I called Microsoft
immediately and by tracing back my Product Key, it was determined that
there was some kind of problem with the eBay Seller (and they couldn't
tell me what, because of confidentiality) - and therefore - EVERY Microsoft product that this eBay Seller sold was no longer valid! End of story!
I had no recourse with Microsoft and by that time, I had no recourse
with the Seller because this was many months later! So I was out $100
(or whatever it was.) It seemed so capricious that Microsoft would
invalidate my software after probably 6 months of the "genuine
advantage" - which is NO advantage at all to the customer.

I am not saying that Logos will treat it's customers in the same way - but we would be kidding ourselves not to recognize the potential for this same kind of treatment, since we no longer manager our own licenses in Logos 4 (as we were able to do in Libronix 3.)

Virtually all companies have you agree to the End User License Agreement
(EULA) which says you don't "own" the software -- your purchase price
is a licensing FEE - so you can't resell the software if you don't want
it anymore - because it's NOT YOURS to sell! BUT - the issue of reselling software and the end user's rights under the "EULA" has finally taken a favorable turn (as regards the people who "purchase" the software - and that's US!) See this article: [url=http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20080522/0016171201.shtml]Court Says Reselling Software Is Okay[/url]

So things may be changing on that front.

Thanks for your post.

David

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/216785#Comment_216785

I am very concerned about some of the practices that I see Logos adopting, which to me, are not the business practices of a Christian company. One of which is charging a fee ($20 per Resource - last I knew) to transfer ownership of a product to someone else. This is a fairly new practice by Logos.

You've misunderstood Logos' policy. The fee is $20 for your whole library. You should also read this: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/87/677.aspx#677

David N.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/216786#Comment_216786

2011/01/29

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your reply.

You've misunderstood Logos' policy. The fee is $20 for your whole library. You should also read this: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/87/677.aspx#677

Actually, I was going by what was specifically told to my by a Logos Customer Service Rep when I called. Maybe the policy was changed since that call.

Regarding the link you sent, I read the thread and in my particular situation, I wanted to transfer the ownership of a Resource on CD that I bought apart from a "bundled, discounted package" and it also was NOT part of my upgrade path. So there weren't any "dependencies" associated with the the transfer. I can certainly understand why a bundled, base package could not be split up and I would never have considered attempting that.

But, I did learn from that thread that the $20 fee is "per transaction" and not "per Resource" as I had been originally told by Logos Customer Service.

I also learned that Bob Pritchett is the President/CEO of Logos Bible Software. It was most encouraging for me to read that the president of the company was actively participating in the dialog on the Logos Forum. I can think of another Bible software company where that is not the case - and it leaves the User Base feeling unappreciated at best.

David

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/216785#Comment_216785

Well, I'm sure among the Logosian families, there's probably a number of business owners. Customers want businesses to be loyal to the customers, but when a customer sees a new opportunity, they jump-ship in a heartbeat. So realistically, businesses pursuing their own destiny should be the expectation. With the L4 approach, I decided to lock-in on L3 and call it a day. My planning horizon is about 15 years or so, given my age, and judging from my dad who was a pastor. Even last year, I had another of my Bible software programs bite the dust. I knew the owner and I made no complaint ... he had to do what he had to do. So it goes.

I am a little uncomfortable with the recent issues with New Interpreters (pricing) and what appears to be an on-going 'discussion' with a publisher, thus holding up resource access. I'd assume the discussion will naturally impact 'me', as being the eventual purchaser. This is the new world of 'ebooks'.

Giovanni Baggio

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/93613#Comment_93613

I want Zondervan to know how I feel about they have treated me as a customer. I think Zondercrooks pretty much covers that.

I feel your pain but if you really want to let Zondercrooks know how you feel then you must take it to their own turf not logos forums. Is not logos fault that Zondercrooks[:D]...lol...is making you pay twice for a resource you already own. It doesn't matter if they've given you a discount you're still paying twice. So far I'm very happy that all my zondervan titles have always been in logos. I have some titles, very few, in another bible program, but I would be willing to pay again for those if I could get them in Logos 4 format. I'm glad I'm getting the Butler's Biography series and Studies on the Savior, I had them in this other Bible program, but still had the chance to cancel my order to pre-pub them in Logos instead.

So let's be nice and civil and take your complains to Zondervan and their own corp. Remember, we must pray for those who do us wrong...

Giovanni

Eric Weiss

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/95744#Comment_95744

They may be publishers of Christian resources but they certainly don't operate by Christian principles. Thanks for listening, Pastor Rick Crampton

Just curious: What "Christian principle" is Zondervan violating with respect to the discount pricing for (re)purchasing Pradis products in Logos?

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/216994#Comment_216994

The normal rule in the industry is that if you own more than one way to read their product you pay full price for each way [that is you pay full piece for each version; paper, LOGOS, e, q, a or whatever]

The normal rule is that if a company abandons its product you lose the product when the hardware/operating system will no longer run it. [Thank you Logos for updating the book data files as your product changed]

Why are there so many different Modern Bibles? Bibles sell – but you can only sell at a high price if you own [or license] the copyright. [Same rules seems to apply for all other printed products]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/216785#Comment_216785

2011/01/29

David N.,

I guess you know you replied to a 10 month old post ("David Mullens Replied: Feb 21, 2010 12:56 PM") since you kindly dated yours. Also, please note that was the only post ever made by David Mullens so it is possible he does not read the forums often and may never run across this thread again.

But I am glad you posted on this subject because you bring up some interesting points.

I was pleasantly surprised with the stance of the folks at BibleWorks who cautioned their customers against purchasing too many digital resources without having the physical paper version as a backup.

I've mentioned this one before. It is similar to General Motors selling me a car and recommending I keep a horse and buggy for backup transportation. (Don't get me wrong, I'm retired from GM and I own BibleWorks 8. I bear no animosity towards BibleWorks.) It makes sense to have an oil lamp for when the electricity goes out. But keeping 5000 books in case Logos goes out of business is a little cumbersome.

One of which is charging a fee ($20 per Resource - last I knew) to transfer ownership of a product to someone else.

When Logos first announced the transfer fee some Customer Service Reps thought it was per license. Bob Pritchett quickly clarified the policy. I can transfer everything I own to you for $20 if it is done in one transaction. If I transfered one each day I would be charged $20 each day for the next couple months.

the issue of reselling software and the end user's rights under the "EULA" has finally taken a favorable turn

Last Summer I brought this up http://community.logos.com/forums/p/359/3440.aspx#3440 in this thread. Read the whole thread. It is quite interesting.

Mike W

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/216785#Comment_216785

...although if the license holder decides not to allow Logos to license the books...there is trouble there too.

I too invested more than I care to mention in resources for other software products that I no longer have access too (Biblesoft and Quickverse). One company says that they don't have funds to update their software and the update for the other doesn't have the resouces available and doesn't support the files I bought before. This hasn't been a problem with Logos. I have resources that I purchased on 3.5" floppies that Logos no longer has a license for. Although I couldn't buy them today the books do download automatically when I install Logos 4. In a post to the forums Bob has told us that we would never lose any resource we had purchased from Logos and addressed concerns about about the long term viability of Logos as a company.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/217083#Comment_217083

One company says that they don't have funds to update their software and the update for the other doesn't have the resouces available and doesn't support the files I bought before. This hasn't been a problem with Logos. I have resources that I purchased on 3.5" floppies that Logos no longer has a license for. Although I couldn't buy them today the books do download automatically when I install Logos 4.

In reality, you and Logos still have a legal (licensed) copy of those resources because they are "grandfathered" in. If the other software companies are telling the truth about their resource licenses terminating, it is because they were not as savvy as the Logos legal negotiators. The other guys contracts might have had a termination date on how long or a unit cap on how many licenses they could sell. When a student buys an academic license for most CAD software it has a timed expiration of the license. But when I bought an academic license for Microsoft Office Ultimate I received a perpetual, upgradeable license. Logos knows how to negotiate better than the other guys. That is why I trust we will eventually see the Anchor Yale Bible Reference Library actually released in Logos. It also explains how we got Abingdon's New Interpreter's Bible and New Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, as well as the Zondervan Bible Reference Bundles ONE & TWO. Both of these publisher were very possessive of their desirable titles. There may be a clause in the contract that will allow publishers to withdraw their titles from the Logos catalog but anyone who has purchased the title will still own it. That is a good reason to buy it now while it is still available. [:D]

Mike W

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/217187#Comment_217187

In reality, you and Logos still have a legal (licensed) copy of those resources because they are "grandfathered" in. If the other software companies are telling the truth about their resource licenses terminating, it is because they were not as savvy as the Logos legal negotiators.

The bottom line is that I haven't lost anything by investing in Logos resources and I believe that it is safe to continue to buy books in Logos format. Whether it is a problem with licensing agreements or a company changing formats and choosing not to upgrade some resources doesn't really matter. At some point in the past few years every non-free Windows based bible software company that I'm aware of except Logos has changed format or platforms and users have lost resources that they have purchased. I realize at this point that I sound like a Logos FanBoy so let me say that I do use another commercial program in addition to Logos and a few free programs due to availability of resources that Logos doesn't carry.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/217187#Comment_217187

Well, I think being in the Logos family, you can be MORE than a fan-boy. You can be an INVESTOR! After Matthew's interesting in a Japanese interlinear, I wrote to the Japan Bible Society to see if I could get it (my spouse if Japanese). They pointed me to Amazon.jp where the price is now DOUBLE the JBS page. Wow. I'm not sure the used version could get into L4 (licenses) but the Logos 'historicity' does create an interesting market for older resources.

Ted Weis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/217269#Comment_217269

When the NIVAC came out on Logos, I felt fortunate to sell my Praxis version for $50--telling the buyer up front that Zondervan was no longer supporting the product.

Someone got a great deal--the entire NT of the Application series. But I was glad to get the series integrated into my Logos and get what felt like a $50 rebate.

These new releases are expenses, but they're also quality stuff. I just wish Old Testament Today by Hill and Walton was included. That's a great book!

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/217269#Comment_217269

Well, I think being in the Logos family, you can be MORE than a fan-boy. You can be an INVESTOR! After Matthew's interesting in a Japanese interlinear, I wrote to the Japan Bible Society to see if I could get it (my spouse if Japanese). They pointed me to Amazon.jp where the price is now DOUBLE the JBS page. Wow. I'm not sure the used version could get into L4 (licenses) but the Logos 'historicity' does create an interesting market for older resources.

I am sorry to hear that. Does the JBS not offer it anymore? I had just purchased A-Bible (Japanese Bible software) just before I was made aware of the Libronix Greek-Japanese Interlinear. I figured I would purchase the Libronix whenever I "got around to it."

And then there is the question of whether or not the Libronix Japanese text will work in :Logos 4. Let me know if you ever try it.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/261146#Comment_261146

Unfortunately, we're giving 'Zondercrooks' some air-time!

It's hard to figure what JBS actually offers; I get the feeling their site wasn't updated. The next big run into Tokyo, we'll swing by JBS and see where they're at. It's always good to encourage and help out if need be.

It's kind of ironic that a Japanese interlinear is so hard to come by. I have a Navajo/english which I like a lot, and there's not an overwhelming number of Navajo Christians. Kind of interesting.

Michael

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/261383#Comment_261383

I'm confused. Since Logos4 is on my PC, and the resources I have are alos on my PC, if Logos went out of business, I would still have both available to me on the PC correct? Just updates would be discontinued and no new resources made available. Am I missing something?

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/261532#Comment_261532

I'm confused. Since Logos4 is on my PC, and the resources I have are alos on my PC, if Logos went out of business, I would still have both available to me on the PC correct? Just updates would be discontinued and no new resources made available. Am I missing something?

Maybe the fact that both hardware and software have rather short life spans? How long will your PC last? How long will it take until a new OS can no longer run Logos?

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/261383#Comment_261383

Well ... guess it had to happen.

On CNN the connection between Zondervan and Murdoch's corporate behavior is now being explored.

I was a little curious why books Zondervan wasn't comfortable with, just got kicked over to their next level up publisher. No problem.

Ah, but this 'Christian business' thing makes so much sense.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/270624#Comment_270624

DMB - this is a case where I personally would have preferred that you start a new thread rather than resurrecting an old one. I don't like to see insulting language resurrected. Your topic, although OT, doesn't bother me. I google the article you referred to which was worth doing although I suspect that the complaining author wouldn't care for my opinion of their stand ("what people are willing to do for publicity"). But knowing the corporate ties is interesting.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/270627#Comment_270627

I agree the original title meets the 'bad taste' definition. And I can only observe Zondervan's business methods (the subject of this thread/discussion).

But as much as one wishes to make assurances about ones corporate parent's behavior, none the less, the 'owned' must meet their profit targets and deliver 'real money'. I've been in that position before, and the 'money' WILL be delivered.

Thus I can now understand what likely drove the Pradis decision.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/270635#Comment_270635

But as much as one wishes to make assurances about ones corporate parent's behavior, none the less, the 'owned' must meet their profit targets and deliver 'real money'. I've been in that position before, and the 'money' WILL be delivered.

Even a small, privately owned business needs to be a bit profitable unless it is a wealthy man's toy.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/270639#Comment_270639

True.