Still using L3? Prefer L3?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 21 2010 2:58 PM

Joan Korte:
After I read of the many problems caused by new downloads to L4, indexing and re-indexing and merge indexing problems, I just use L3. 

Remember that the people who haven't had problems don't post. The only problem that I have had of this sort is this past weekend on news third party software that works in L3 but I can't get moved to L4. Only a small percentage have had problems. Only a few of those have been severe.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 21 2010 4:42 PM

JimMcDaniel:

David Paul:

Just curious...

Anyone out there who is finding it hard or even impossible to bring themselves to adopt L4?

I've been using Logos since it came out on 3.5" disks and currently use it almost every day. I don't say the following with any animosity.

L4 has damaged Logos' reputation in my eyes. Not because its fails to advance the technology or provide a better product (though I can't really say one way or the other since I can't make it do anything productive yet) but because they continue to make the barrier to productivity so high despite the competitive proliferation of free web-base Bible study tools that must be eating into their market share of low end package products.

I worked as a product developer and manager in the high-tech industry for a long time. I am experienced in developing hardware and software products that interface with people. Logos is a company that has never been very effective at developing user-friendly/intuitive interfaces, help information or customer education. If it weren't for Morris Proctor, I would have abandoned Logos long ago. I had hoped it would be different this time around, but the fact remains that real price of the L4 upgrade is the money paid to Logos plus the price of one or more of Mo's seminars, plus the time to wait until he comes to our state. Don't get me wrong. Mo does an absolutely fantastic job. In fact I can't see how Logos can exist without him, but he's necessary because the user interface for Logos is quite obtuse.

Of course Logos is going to say, "we have videos!".  But the L4 videos are like buying a complex VCR and getting a free video that shows you how to plug it into the wall, turn it on and set the time. For some that's enough either because they don't need much more, or because they can figure the rest out on their own, but suppose the VCR includes features that involve ways of doing things that no one has seen before? Then what would you think of the video?

So, I have L3 set up with custom toolbars and I know exactly how to get complex tasks done quickly. Every week or so I open L4, let it update itself, stare at it for a few minutes, try to do something useful, fail, and go back to L3 so I don't waste my time. I don't mind learning, but trial and error gets old - and I'm old enough that I don't have too many years left to waste. Furthermore, there is no use in going very far until I can port my notes over. In fact if Logos fails to make the notes backwards compatible, it may be a real long time before I can use L4, because I don't envision a sudden-death transition from L3 to L4.

If Logos had some videos that explained how to set up L4 to accomplish what I do in L3, then I could make the switch. But that might compete with Mo's seminars, so I don't see it happening.

An additional problem I have, is that I'm out of work. The upgrade was a sacrifice. I don't know if I can afford another seminar even when Mo comes to our state.

I don't know how this story is going to resolve itself.

 

 

I must be a genius!

I've used L3 and L4 and though they are different...I've been able to use L4 effectively without the need for Morris Proctor or a seminar!

 

Thank you very much for the compliment  Big Smile

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Mark Watson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 21 2010 8:04 PM

David Paul:
Anyone out there who is finding it hard or even impossible to bring themselves to adopt L4?

 Yes. L3 is where I get alot of my work done. L4 is mostly for looking around right now.

 

David Paul:
Does this strike a chord with anyone else? I'd like to hear the reasons you feel this way.

Yes. I can understand the direction change in the Logos corporate world of changing technology. However, I do wander where Logos is going. Personally, I only have internet access at my home and not at church. (No one has access at the church.) So I do not like having to spend my internet time downloading massive updates. Then having to do the whole reindex or merge index thing (which many persons in this forum don't recommend anyway) which slows down my computer completely. I never had a crash in L3 that did not go away after a simple shutdown and restart of my computer. I have on L4.

 It seems to me that Logos did jump the gun on their rollout of L4 and this may have been an economic decision. Sales seem to have been good for them. They got another several hundred of my dollars. And just personally, I don't care for any product that is web based only as subscription. Logos has discontinued Lesson Builder (which I liked) and now they have shut down the Seminary Library subscription that they used to offer. (I did not subscribe to this because of the costs.)

 Also, I spent time and money buying L3 training manuals from their trainer, quick file disks with all sorts of much needed tricks for L3, flash cards for keystrokes, etc. and even went to Camp Logos 1 (both my wife and I paid to go to this) and was planning to go to a Camp Logos 2 this summer (but that has now changed). I don't even see a discount for L3 Camp attendees to "re-do their training" in L4. So the change to L4 has been a little of a bummer for me. I have more resources, but cannot do more with them than I could in L3.

 Plus I cannot run L4 on my old notebook, which I used for travel.

 So for me personally, it has been a love and not love relationship with L4 so far. And I do not plan on taking L3 off of my computers at any time in the future.

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Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 21 2010 11:05 PM

It strikes me that Logos has a big vision that is just now being fulfilled in the next level of evolution in the L4 interface.  To me it seems that more and more of what is going on is a push environment  that will ultimate lead to a subscription based product on multiple platforms for a flat yearly fee....but this is pure speculation.  Honestly Logos has outpaced me in both the technology and the size of the library that that technology uses . 

A version L3.5 with further extension of the interface incorporating more push technology at a much lower upgrade fee would have been preferable to what I am reading in multiple threads about L4. Perhaps I just don't get the "big picture" but I do feel more and more that Logos and its products are alienating me as a customer.  Although L3 does seem to be a useful interface to access my lowly Scholar Library. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 21 2010 11:51 PM

Mark Watson:
However, I do wander where Logos is going.

I'll scold myself first (Bad, MJ, bad, bad) before I remark that this is an absolutely wonderful typo. Since you wander where Logos is going, I bet all the features fit your use to the T. Me - I wander all over the place criss-crossing where Logos is going. Big Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2010 4:10 AM

MJ. Smith:

Joan Korte:
After I read of the many problems caused by new downloads to L4, indexing and re-indexing and merge indexing problems, I just use L3. 

Remember that the people who haven't had problems don't post. The only problem that I have had of this sort is this past weekend on news third party software that works in L3 but I can't get moved to L4. Only a small percentage have had problems. Only a few of those have been severe.

Yes, I know that.  But I am extremely conservative and thus my behavior plays out that attitude.  I don't want an iota of an issue; I never had any issues with L3.  Not a scintilla.  It's my choice. Cool 

Posts 121
Mark Watson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2010 8:05 AM

M.J. Smith,

No need to scold yourself.  I sometimes I wonder if I am just wandering around in L4!  I seemed to at least be able to find a destination (if not my intended one) in L3.

I have chuckled many times over your posts in the past, wondering what type of genius is this liturgical-loving giant who posts with a swift precision and eloquence?  Care to work on some Methodist or Wesleyan resources in the future?  We use the Revised Common Lectionary by the way...

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2010 8:17 AM

MJ. Smith:
Remember that the people who haven't had problems don't post.

MJ.  This is very true, but I did not see so many people posting about issues they were having with L3.

I am not having the software issues with L4 (it could come from the fact that I use L3 99.85% of the time).  My issues with L4 come from the fact that I cannot use the data that I entered into L3.  I have several hundred workspaces (one for each day in the lectionary plus special services), and Logos has not provided a way to import them into L4.  Bob has stated that the two systems are so different that they cannot import them.  I personally think that this is nothing but bull 'dingle berries.'  A script can be made to import them.  Will they look the same because we could have overlapping windows in L3?  No, but I would have all of the resources that I use for a particular  worship service open to me in a layout that I could use, instead of recreating everything from scratch.

I have lots and lots and lots of notes.  Now with the removal of, what I call the "Table of Contents," from the left column, I now must scroll down to find the note that I am looking for.  This makes my notes useless in L4.

Anonymous | | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2010 8:54 AM

I have downloaded & had a quick look at L4 but the extent to which I use Logos (or any other program) doesn't warrant me spending time delving into it. L3 is more than enough to suit my needs.

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Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2010 8:58 AM

tom collinge:
My issues with L4 come from the fact that I cannot use the data that I entered into L3.  I have several hundred workspaces (one for each day in the lectionary plus special services), and Logos has not provided a way to import them into L4.

 

This doesn't make the pain of conversion for you any less, but may I ask a question without antagonizing you? How many people do you think have a layout organization as complex as yours? And this is a related question: Do you think that Logos should be responsible for converting all data from a previous version regardless of the number of people that not doing so affects.

Tom, I am not trying to pick a fight, people here use the programs so many different (different from me, that is) that it blows my mind. One the other members of the forums has created hundreds of collections, which must have taken hours and hours. I can see why he would be upset if those didn't make the trip into a new version of Logos. I like layouts and collections, but I haven't invested the time in them that either of you have.

 

 

Posts 675
Jim | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2010 8:59 AM

I don't resist the leap in technology that L4 seems to be capable of. In fact I think it is needed. I see us as really being Beta product testers or more euphemistically "early adopters". My main issue is that it makes sense to help the user base make the transition smoother.

L3 has a lot of customization capability. It can be quite useful without much customization, but you can also become very productive at complex research by taking advantage of the many features it affords. I am quite pleased with how productive I can be with L3 and am humbled to know that there are others who are more proficient than I. I just can't figure out how to transfer all that productivity into my L4 experience yet. When I try things, I get unexpected results and can't figure out how to reverse what I've done. And then some features have not yet been implemented to the same level of functionality as L3.

Have a great day,
jmac

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2010 9:16 AM

Terry Poperszky:

converting all data from a previous version regardless of the number of people that not doing so affects.

Tom, I am not trying to pick a fight, people here use the programs so many different (different from me, that is) that it blows my mind. One the other members of the forums has created hundreds of collections, which must have taken hours and hours.

I'm just the opposite; I make a layout for a few different things, Greek NT study, OT study, then just make them "on the fly" as I need them...it's usually to keep a book  + some related resources at a stopping point....when I don't need them...then I delete them....

 

I think I might have 20 or 30 in all.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2010 9:23 AM

Terry Poperszky:

This doesn't make the pain of conversion for you any less, but may I ask a question without antagonizing you? How many people do you think have a layout organization as complex as yours? And this is a related question: Do you think that Logos should be responsible for converting all data from a previous version regardless of the number of people that not doing so affects.

Tom, I am not trying to pick a fight, people here use the programs so many different (different from me, that is) that it blows my mind. One the other members of the forums has created hundreds of collections, which must have taken hours and hours. I can see why he would be upset if those didn't make the trip into a new version of Logos. I like layouts and collections, but I haven't invested the time in them that either of you have.

Hi Terry,

The short answer to your question: yes.

As a former software developer and a project manager. I know that the most import "thing" about any software program is the data that the user enters into the program.  It is by far the most expensive part of any software program.  The cost of upgrade to L4 is way tooooooooooo expensive for me.

This is why those of us who have a lot to lose by upgrading to L4 are complaining so much.

While not 100% the same, just image the outcry Microsoft would have received if they did not provide a way to read the old format for Word when they changed their format from .doc to docx?

Posts 675
Jim | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2010 9:24 AM

Terry Poperszky:
Do you think that Logos should be responsible for converting all data from a previous version regardless of the number of people that not doing so affects.

I'm butting in, but I would answer your question as a yes. Logos is a product that meets a very special market niche. Product development is always dependent upon legacy features. If you are Microsoft, you have such a huge user base that you can afford to drop a feature if you think only a few people use it. But Logos made choices a long time ago about how to build the user interface and then people did the best they could to make the program useful to them. I used to have a large number of workspaces, but pared them down to a smaller set, so my problem isn't as large as Tom's, but workspaces were an important feature of L3 so Logos should have a utility to port them to L4 even if the end result doesn't end up exactly the same as the L3 version.

Have a great day,
jmac

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Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2010 9:38 AM

tom collinge:
This is why those of us who have a lot to lose by upgrading to L4 are complaining so much.

 

Understood. Thanks for the clarification.

 

 

Posts 270
Stein Dahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 22 2010 10:26 AM

I'm still using L3.  I love it actually.  But I also love L4, and use it as well.  I use L3 1/2 of the time - and L4 the other 1/2.  I've owned L3 for a while but am just now learning to really use it.  I'm also learning to use L4. 

I think that if the bugs (speed optimizations, & minor quirks, etc.) are worked out and the missing features are implemented in L4 (better notes, copy & pasting from anywhere in L4, PBB support etc.), it'll be very, very hard to beat.

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