Zondervan is not a Crook

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Posts 60
Richard Crampton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 24 2010 8:56 AM

P. Keith Larson:
But my guess is that even  if this is the way the PrePub and upgrade was set up, you would still be crying foul, because to pay the same upgrade price that moved you from one version of Yugo quality software (Pradis 5) to another version of Yugo quality software (Pradis 6), when what is being offered is an upgrade to BMW quality software

 

For someone who thinks himself an expert on Pradis you don't know very much.  When Pradis went from version 5 to 6 they sent me an upgrade disk for free after I requested it.  As I said elsewhere, your silly arrogance is getting on my nerves.  I'll solve that problem by not not reading anymore of your drivel.

 

Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 24 2010 9:40 AM

Sometimes I think it is easy to get lost in the details of what appears (at least to some) to be a big change in a market place.  What maybe happening here is the establishment of a de facto christian software standard in the e-book market.  I wouldn't be surprised to see other competitors like PC-Study Bible joining forces with Logos in order to further consolidate this market.  Of course all of this is based upon the excellence of past products and present library of Logos as envisioned by its ownership. 

However, what seems to be apparent (imo) is that as this change happens that it will cost consumers increasingly large amounts of money to have the convenience of using electronic books to spread the Word of God.  From a perspective other than a North American Middle/Upper Class with a history of conspicuous consumption how does spending say $500 for a computer, $400 for a base program, another $150 for upgrades every 18 months, and hundreds more for those must have prepubs look to the poor in other countries?  Where convenience of use, most update push technology interface, and shelf space isn't necessarily the most important part of living out a Christian life in difficult circumstances.  When viewed from such a perspective I wonder how these issues are seen by God...at this point this is just a question more than anything else.

Posts 5621
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 24 2010 10:17 AM

ReneAtchley:
From a perspective other than a North American Middle/Upper Class with a history of conspicuous consumption how does spending say $500 for a computer, $400 for a base program, another $150 for upgrades every 18 months, and hundreds more for those must have prepubs look to the poor in other countries?

Really though, you could say the same thing about paper books.  They are just as unobtainable to the poor.  And I'm sure I've spent far less on my Logos library than I would have to get it in paper format.

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Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 24 2010 10:21 AM

Todd Phillips:

ReneAtchley:
From a perspective other than a North American Middle/Upper Class with a history of conspicuous consumption how does spending say $500 for a computer, $400 for a base program, another $150 for upgrades every 18 months, and hundreds more for those must have prepubs look to the poor in other countries?

Really though, you could say the same thing about paper books.  They are just as unobtainable to the poor.  And I'm sure I've spent far less on my Logos library than I would have to get it in paper format.

 

Indeed although $5 or $10 for a bible and $20 for a commentary maybe more reasonable than $1000 (minimum) for the convenience of an industry standard e-book.  Yet somehow I think this misses the larger point especially in relation to the issues of price creep over an orphaned bible program.

Posts 87
Ray D | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 24 2010 10:37 AM

Hi Keith, with all due respect and in love, as someone not personally affected by the Pradis upgrades I sense the need to jump in and share that it appears to me in your attempt to help, you are stirring others to anger with your lines of reasoning. Facts concerning cost/profitability might make it more tolerable to those who feel slighted by Z, but so far most of your reasoning is based on hypotheticals. I don't think facts would help much either. You made your point several post back and it is clear that other Pradis owners diagree and are convinced that Z can and should do more. Seems to me that it is a principle thing to those who feel slighted. I tend to agree, profitability aside, Z should make every effort to be Christ exalting in their interaction with their customers. If they did, it sure would be an effort toward esteeming others more highly than themselves. Bet you if Z went over the top to bless their customers, the Lord would bless them in a big way in return. Who cares about profitability when we serve a God who assures us that we reap what we sow. So if you are listening in Z, it sure would bless a lot of folks and exalt the Lord if you got a little more others centered with discounts, maybe get real crazy and give them away for free. :-) That would be a seed sow that would surely bring a harvest.

 

Posts 274
Mike W | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 24 2010 10:56 AM

ReneAtchley:
Indeed although $5 or $10 for a bible and $20 for a commentary maybe more reasonable than $1000 (minimum) for the convenience of an industry standard e-book.  Yet somehow I think this misses the larger point especially in relation to the issues of price creep over an orphaned bible program.

As far as price creep this seems to be across the board.  I've noticed that other bible study software companies are starting to charge about the same as Logos for books and they don't offer comparable base package discounts.  Some companies are charging several hundred dollars for packages containing almost exclusively public domain works. 

 Lower income individuals won't have access to commentaries like the NIC or WBC in paper either.  On the flip side though, there is a  very good selection of public domain works available for free on the internet as well a few free bible study programs. Almost all of the commentaries and lexicons I used in school (late 70s) and during my first pastorate are currently available for free.  One of our local megachurches offers a three hour class in using one of these programs (they will be uploading the class to YouTube after friday).  One commercial software company offers an older version of thier program and several public domain for free.

As far as spending money of resources for bible study you could make the same argument about seminary (How can you spend $100,000 on a seminary education when there are areas where groups of people have to share a single bible?)

 

Posts 1130
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 24 2010 11:24 AM

Ray D:
Hi Keith, with all due respect and in love, as someone not personally affected by the Pradis upgrades I sense the need to jump in and share that it appears to me in your attempt to help, you are stirring others to anger with your lines of reasoning.

 It seems you are right. My line of reasoning did help me, but has not helped others. Believe it or not I don't like paying more than I have to for anything and I certainly don't like paying twice for the same product. I tried to sit back and ask why might the price be as high as it is, short of the simple answer that Zondervan and possibly even Logos are crooks. When I am angry at someone I find it helpful to try to explain the other person's actions in the best light possible.

Ray D:
so far most of your reasoning is based on hypotheticals

 Well isn't all of our reasoning on this topic hypothetical? Who are any of us to say what would have been a fair upgrade price? Does any of us know the production cost for Logos? Does any of us know the ability of Zondervan to offer more than a 40% upgrade price? As you said some Pradis owners "are convinced that Z can and should do more." What make them so convinced? Where did that get this information?

Ray D:
I don't think facts would help much either.

This does seem to be the bottom line doesn't it. We are dealing with feelings here, not facts. So in that vain I want to say to all those who feel they have wasted hundreds of dollars on Zondervan ebooks, I feel for you. I too have wasted my money on many products that did not turn out to meet my expectations. Software seems to be especially prone to this. Purchasing anything in digital format is very risky. That is why I appreciate Logos so much. On that positive thought I am ending my participation in this thread.

Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 24 2010 12:27 PM

Mike I would agree that price creep seems to be an industry practice especially as the competitive environment is shrinking which (I think) brings up the question of relative value of the various limited choices in this market.  Which also has ramifications for those of us who use the "premium" programs to help in ministerial situations.

I am not asking about spending money on seminary or several other issues that can be seen as tangential on the subject of pricing of orphaned Pradis users.  What I am questioning, if that is the right term, is the hand wringing of those who view this pricing as too much and those who view it as just right....especially since this situation maybe met by users of other programs in the future.  When put into a larger context does this conversation make any sense about paying hundreds of dollars for a series of e-books that has a rather limited audience within an developed nation community.  To put it another way how did the Church of Jesus Christ ever survive without several thousands e-book resources and the latest exegetical resources that rehash the same technical points?

I think if a person wants to spend their money for these products, and I'm guilty, that they should if their ministry can use them.  However, all of this (imo) can be seen in terms of North American consumer excess that is really unnecessary for service to the Kingdom during the process of ministry.  When seen in this light pricing isn't such a big issue for me since its an extra anyway....but thats just me.  

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