Zondervan is not a Crook

While I can understand why those who have heavily invested in Pradis could be hoping for a bigger upgrade discount I think that people are missing a key point, and that it that Zondervan only has 50% of the List Price pie to work with. In retail, it is customary for the manufacturer to charge the retailer 50% of the list price. Thus, a $100 pair of shoes costs the retailer $50. The retailer then has the option to sale the shoes for $100 or for whatever sale price they choose. At the end of the season the retailer might be willing to sale the shoes for less than he or she purchased them for, just to get rid of inventory.

There are several factors that come into play the change this a bit. One being volume discounts large retailers get. Thus the Wal-Mart’s of the world are able to undercut your local shoe store. Another factor is restrictions that manufactures place on retailer to not discount their products, to only discount them only at a certain level or to discount them only when they have a special arrangement with the manufacture. This is what Apple does with their retailers. It also seems to be the agreement that Logos has with their publishing partners.

The discounts we see from Logos are either temporary or long term agreements with the publishers. However, unlike the discounts we see from normal retail stores, more than likely each party is agreeing to take an equal share in that discount. Thus a March Madness sale of 60% off means that Logos take a 30% cut and the publisher has agreed to take a 30% cut.

In the case of upgrade pricing for Zondervan products the only party that has an obligation to offer a discount is Zondervan. I am sure that Logos would have like to have offered PrePub discounts (and larger ones at that) on all the Zondervan books, but for whatever reason Zondervan chose to not allow this. Consequently, for those resources that do not have a PrePub discount, the biggest discount a Pradis user can hope for is 50%.

Let’s use the EBC as an example: Of the $130 (figures rounded up) it is list at Logos gets $65 for every sale. Zondervan will get $65 from non-ungraders and $13 from upgraders. As an owner of the EBC in Pradis 5 format I would like to pay less than $78 to add these commentaries to my Logos library. However, I don’t expect my upgrade for a Zondervan product to come out of Logos’ hide. So unless Zondervan and Logos negotiate a lower PrePub price for everyone (upgraders and non-upgraders), I don’t expect Logos to offer me one crumb of their half of the retail pie.

Now back to Zondervan’s half of the retail pie. Does their not offering us a 50% discount make them crooks? I don’t think so. When I purchased the Pradis 5 version of the EBC, I purchased it with my eyes wide open to their upgrade policies. I never expected to get a free upgrade from Zondervan. If I had chosen to upgrade my Pradis 5 version of the EBC to Pradis 6 I would have paid a lot more than $13. Zondervan’s upgrade policies may make them poor business people, but it certainly does not make them thieves.

The bottom line for me is that if I did not hate the Pradis 5 interface so much and like the EBC so much I would not be tempted by the $78 upgrade price, but for me to have these commentaries my Logos library is worth it. The $78 is also much easier to swallow knowing that $65 is going to Logos and only $13 to Zondervan!

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Jack Caviness

The $78 is also much easier to swallow knowing that $65 is going to Logos and only $13 to Zondervan!

It could be the other way around.

BillS

Hi Keith,

I appreciate your calm, level-headed, thought-provoking posts... even though we've arrived at different positions on the issue of Z / Pradis resources.

So long as Pradis still opens, I'll keep on using EBC there... In our tiny church, $78 is too much to burn on another copy of the same resource. Anything over a nominal fee for conversion would've been more than I'd have chosen to spend.

Many blessings to you... Keep on making us think.

Richard Crampton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94210#Comment_94210

It may make you feel better that you get to repurchase the resources you already own from Logos, but it does nothing to sooth my irritation. I don't care who the money is going to, Pradis customers are getting the shaft. Yes, strictly defined, what Zondervan had done does not make them crooks. But it does reveal a disdain for their customers.

I have resigned myself to using Pradis as long as possible. Thank God for virtual machines!

Keith Larson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94199#Comment_94199

It could be the other way around.

Highly unlikely. Logos is the one with all the cost to absorb in this project: Logos must prepare the books, Logos is the one paying sales people to take the order, Logos is the one providing tech support. Zondervan has no real expenses associated with this partnership. Everything they make is pure profit.

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94226#Comment_94226

Thank God for virtual machines!

At least you know how to run one! I have no clue. But for now, Pradis works on Win 7. Maybe in a couple years I may ask you how I can run one!

Rick, it seemed to me like your chosen moniker for Z was borne out of frustration with them, but it still seemed quite incendiary, and not helpful in the overall discussion. Not sure if my comment on your moniker is helpful at this point, either. Anyway, peace!

Keith Larson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94226#Comment_94226

It may make you feel better that you get to repurchase the resources you already own from Logos, but it does nothing to sooth my irritation. I don't care who the money is going to, Pradis customers are getting the shaft. Yes, strictly defined, what Zondervan had done does not make them crooks. But it does reveal a disdain for their customers.

I have already made it clear that I think it was a mistake for both Zondervan and Baker to think they could offer PrePubs with no discounts. At least Zondervan has relented somewhat with discounts ranging from 0% to 48% on the PrePubs.

The fact that I was trying to highlight is Logos is entitled to make some money off this partnership, even from those who are "upgrading." Logos was no the one who sold you your Pradis books, but they are the ones who are absorbing the costs of preparing the books, marketing them and now providing long term tech support for these books. If you the consumer do not pay these costs, who does? If you think Zondervan will you are living in a socialistic dream world, the cost must always be passed on to the consumer or the company will go out of business.

Keith Larson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94210#Comment_94210

Anything over a nominal fee for conversion would've been more than I'd have chosen to spend.

Thanks for making me think. With all the costs of conversion, marketing, and support associated with any product that is converted from one media or format to another, I wonder what the absolute minimum "upgrade" price could be?

About the best PrePub price I have ever seen is a 50% discount. So for the sake of argument lets say that Zondervan and Logos agree to a 50% off list price PrePub. Of course this would mean that Logos would have to get enough orders before they could start production, unlike what happened with these Zondervan books which were in production regardless of the number of orders placed.

This would give both Zondervan and Logos a $39 slice of pie. Then for the sake of argument let's say Zondervan is still willing to make only $13 from upgraders, this would give a final price of $52. Would that be "nominal" enough for you?

Now let's say Zondervan is really nice [A], and decides to make nothing off upgrades. Would $39 be nominal enough for you?

Regardless of what your answer would be, there would still be people out there what would call Zondervan a crook at a $39 upgrade fee, because these people not only expect Zondervan to not make any money off this conversion, but they don't expect Logos to make any money either.

Another way of looking at this to make us all think is what makes this conversion any different than Logos converting print books to Logos format? All newer books come to Logos in electronic text anyway. My guess is that the Pradis markups and taggings would be more of a hindrance to Logos that a help. So why are we not crying foul when we are not offered a nominal upgrade fee for converting our paper books to Logos format? Logos has generated no income in the past from Pradis sales, they should not be expected to eat their costs so upgraders can have a low price. There is a base price associated with this conversion and the sad fact is that it is higher than just a nominal upgrade fee.

Mike Childs

The language has been a little over the top.

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94275#Comment_94275

Regardless of what your answer would be, there would still be people out there what would call Zondervan a crook at a $39 upgrade fee, because these people not only expect Zondervan to not make any money off this conversion, but they don't expect Logos to make any money either.

And they'd be wrong... The value equation has to be positive for Z & L, too, or they won't offer us the resources for sale. I've spent too long in the commercial airplanes industry to misunderstand either marketing or the value equation. For us, value has to be positive enough to make the purchase. If we have an available substitute, marketing needs a very different value proposition than if we have no substitute.

In my case, I do... That's all I'm saying. At whatever point Pradis won't open, I'll hope for a sale on Z resources in L4 format. Until then, unless the value equation looks good against a no-cost substitute, I'll invest in new resources, not dups. To directly answer your question, I don't think I'd pay much more than $10-20 to replace it with an identical resource.

Money at my house is just too short in supply. [:)] I have to be a good steward whether I want to or not. [:D]

Keith Larson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94289#Comment_94289

To directly answer your question, I don't think I'd pay much more than $10-20 to replace it with an identical resource.

Bill,

I think this represents the problem with this "upgrade" or more accurately "conversion." Because this is not an upgrade of one Pradis version to another Pradis version, but rather the conversion of a set of commentaries that are in one format to another format, and this conversion being done by another company other than Zondervan the cost associated with this conversion are much greater than the cost associated with a simple upgrade. This is just a guess on my part, but I would think that the cost associated with Logos producing a 12 vol. set of commentaries would be much more that $10-$20.

To give a point of reference consider Barnes Notes, which is in Community Pricing. This is a similarly sized project (both are around 10,000 pages). According to Bob more people have bid on Barnes Notes than any project to date, but at its highest level, $30, the graph is just under the 50% mark. I can understand why people don't want to spend much on a public domain work that is available for free in other formats. But this does not can change the cost associated with producing this work. Realistically, if a person really wants to see Barnes Notes in Logos format they are going to have to bid $30 or more (probably more).

Now getting back to the EBC, to provide Pradis owners a "conversion" of the EBC to Logos format for only $10-$20, Zondervan would not only have to be prepared not to make any money off this conversion, but they would actually have to pay Logos money to make up the difference between the upgrade fee and the price Logos would be charging Zondervan to do the conversion! I am sure some on this forum would argue that Zondervan has a moral obligation to pay this price, I would not. Here is why.

When I purchased my EBC in Pradis 5 format Zondervan provided me tech support for that product until they went to Pardis 6. At that time they did offer me an upgrade price, which I chose to pass on because all I was using Pradis for is to read the EBC. If I had purchased the upgrade Zondervan would be still offering me tech support for Pardis 6 until June 1, 2010. They have already produced an upgrade that makes Pradis 6 fully compatible with Windows 7. Now that they are going out of the software business, they have no farther obligations to me as a Pradis user. As long as I have a computer that is running Windows 7 I can continue using Pradis and my EBC until the day I die.

However, Zondervan has gone beyond their obligations and have offered a 40% discount. In addition, Zondervan responding to the protests about not offering an PrePub discount and are now discounting all their PrePubs with the exception of the EBC.

I do expect in the future that Logos and Zondervan will agree to a special discount special on many of these resources. Some perhaps will even be in a base package from Logos! But short of being a part of a base package, I doubt you will ever see a 12 vol. commentary set going for much less than $78. Which BTW is only $6.50 a volume!

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94571#Comment_94571

However, Zondervan has gone beyond their obligations and have offered a 40% discount. In addition, Zondervan responding to the protests about not offering an PrePub discount and are now discounting all their PrePubs with the exception of the EBC.

You are confusing "obligation" with "expectation". If you carefully read the EULA for most software, there is almost no legal obligation whatsoever to software users. Haven't read either Pradis or Logos EULAs but I would bet they are similar. NO ONE is say they have a legal obligation at all. What most of us are saying is that we have a certain expectation of the two companies.

1. I expect that since they are producing Christian products that the employees and leaders of both companies will behave in a Christian way.

2. I expect that they will also, being for profit companies want to do what is best for their long term bottom line.

Some have unreasonable expectations. They also expect that all Bible software should be free or nearly free. But I have not read anyone here saying that. That is reserved for the groups that are stealing software.

When you put 1&2 in place, it is my belief that it would be in Zondervan's best interest to give a very low cost upgrade on these works to previous users. This will do two things that will be fulfilling #2. First, it will entice Pradis users who are not interested in Logos to come over to Logos. This helps both companies because of the potential for future revenue from these new Logos/Zondervan users. Second, it will engender good will with users who are feeling like Zondervan has a reputation for overcharging for previous upgrades when we are used to the philosophy of Logos and other companies which say once you buy your books you own them and will never be charged again for them. There is a clash of cultures between Zondervan which often charged for book upgrades and Logos which never does.

Finally, one last point that no one seems to have ever really answered to my liking. Zondervan asked Logos to produce their products in Logos format so they can sell it to Logos users and future customers. If no one who ever owned a single book in Pradis format ever bought the Logos versions, they likely still would have done so. They understand that Logos has a large customer base and their books are popular. They will make money even if none of us Pradis users buy. Since that is the case (you'd have to show me some proof to convince me otherwise) then the additional cost of giving us loyal Pradis users a deeply discounted price to shift our books from Pradis to Logos would be wise for reasons #1 and 2 above. It would be in their best interest and mine.

Personally, I knew this would NEVER happen. The 40% is the best I can expect. I have chosen to take them up on their offer because with it I am also gettting the NIV Application Commentaries for less than I would have otherwise. This makes it easier. But it also leaves a little bit of bad taste in my mouth with regards to Zondervan due to my expectations which I believe are very fair.

Alas, I feel as I am shouting against the wall so I will most likely not post again about this topic. I would suggest we all just move on once we get our final rants out as I have just done. But if you are still reading after all of this, I have one question for you: "Why?" [:D][:^)]

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94571#Comment_94571

Hi Keith,

the cost associated with Logos producing a 12 vol. set of commentaries would be much more that $10-$20.

True. I've never said the commentaries aren't worth $78 or even full list price.

Zondervan has gone beyond their obligations and have offered a 40% discount.

True again. I also agree with your subject that they aren't crooks.

in the future that Logos and Zondervan will agree to a special discount special on many of these resources. Some perhaps will even be in a base package from Logos!

Until they do, I have a working set that does what I need every e-commentary to do.

In our financial situation, I just can't justify $78 for the convenience of having THE SAME resource in Logos. (If it were an updated revision to the content, I'd feel differently.) That's different than saying others who do find it a good value are wrong. For some, it's a good value. I'm ok with that. But in my circumstances, it isn't a good value for me. I'm not projecting my expectations on others. [:)]

only $6.50 a volume!

For some, that's an acceptable value proposition. By far, most of my Logos purchases have been collections with the per book cost in the $1-2 / volume range. I choose to wait until there's a collection at that value proposition. That's why I stuck with Platinum... You got more books with Portfolio, but for me the cost / book would've been higher. I do the math....[:D]

Many blessings to you!

Finally, I agree with Kevin that it's time for me to turn this thread loose.

Keith Larson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94615#Comment_94615

Bill,

I hope you did not get the impression that I was arguing with you personally. Only you can decide what you can afford and ultimately this is the only criteria that matters. I was just using your $10-$20 figure because I think it represents what many people's expection is. My point is that unless the EBC will someday be a part of a base package, this price range is not realistic. Just like you and I, Logos and Zondervan face economic realities too.

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94705#Comment_94705

Hi Keith,

I hope you did not get the impression that I was arguing with you personally.

[:)]

Todd Beall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/94275#Comment_94275

I think that those of you who think that Logos is a saint and Zondervan is all at fault for the high upgrade prices should think again. Yes, I blame Zondervan here, not Logos, but Logos would still do fine even if they made virtually nothing off of Pradis users--there is no law that says that they should get a certain amount per book. Plus, Zondervan could have negotiated into their original deal with Logos that for the rights to reproduce their books in the Logos format, we want to give Pradis owners of the same books the right to upgrade for (say) $25 per set purchased (or whatever). Don't you think Logos would have agreed? Of course they would because for years after they have the sales of all these popular Zondervan products! That's the point that many of you are missing. Plus, the more books Logos has, the more of the market they corner, and the less likely that there will be any future competition. In a word, their brand becomes more valuable with the licensing of Zondervan books.

So...even if they made next to nothing on the Pradis converted books, they will make a mint in the long run--and even in the present with some of the books that had not yet been released in Pradis.

I am not happy with Zondervan at all, because I am left with the choice of upgrading the books I originally bought for $540 at an additional cost of $464, or else hoping that the Pradis platform will still work a few years/operating systems from now. Neither choice is good. I would have paid $125-$150 for my 5 sets to be upgraded to Logos, but I am not at all sure about. 3 times that amount.

Todd

Richard Crampton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/95634#Comment_95634

I agree with your assessment Todd. Some have said Pradis owners should be "happy" with the fact they are being ripped off because most of the proceeds go to Logos. Whether that's true or not I'm not sure. If it is true, then I'm as irritated at Logos as I am at Zondervan. Up until now, Logos has always provided a great product at a fair price. But this thread has got me wondering. Certainly, Logos bears no responsibility for Zondervan's treatment of it's customers, but if it's in their power to do something to ease the pain for Pradis customers, and they choose not to for profit sake that speaks volumes to me.

I recognize everyone's situation is different. I'm heavily invested in Pradis and it would cost me over a $1000 to upgrade what I own. The fact this upgrade must be done all at once with no payment plan certainly does not help. I wonder who controls that? I must confess I would not upgrade even if there was a payment plan at the present price.

I don't need any lectures by the Logos "defenders" about profit. So don't bother. I own Scholars Platinum and several hundred dollars worth of other resources. So it's not like I have been a customer who expects something for nothing.

Keith Larson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/95634#Comment_95634

Plus, Zondervan could have negotiated into their original deal with Logos that for the rights to reproduce their books in the Logos format, we want to give Pradis owners of the same books the right to upgrade for (say) $25 per set purchased (or whatever). Don't you think Logos would have agreed? Of course they would because for years after they have the sales of all these popular Zondervan products! That's the point that many of you are missing. Plus, the more books Logos has, the more of the market they corner, and the less likely that there will be any future competition. In a word, their brand becomes more valuable with the licensing of Zondervan books.

Only if Zondervan paid them up front for the conversion costs. With Zondervan's backwards policy of asking 100% MSRP for their books in Logos format, I seriously doubt that Logos will see very many sales of these Zondervan works after the intial rush. Who in their right mind would the MSRP when you can get the very same book from CBD or Amazon for a faction of the costs? Even Logos' "sale prices" at their unlock store are a joke. Once a book leaves PrePub, Logos probably only sell a few hundred copeis, even at their so called "Logos sale price." Logos knows this and will not spend thousands of dollars producting digital books that will sit in their servers gathering digital dust! $25 per set would not even come close to what Logos needs to do this work, more like $40 to $50. You guys are living in a dream world wanting something for nothing. Well wake up! There is NO FREE LUNCH!!!

James Macleod

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/95634#Comment_95634

I am not happy with Zondervan at all, because I am left with the choice of upgrading the books I originally bought for $540 at an additional cost of $464, or else hoping that the Pradis platform will still work a few years/operating systems from now. Neither choice is good. I would have paid $125-$150 for my 5 sets to be upgraded to Logos, but I am not at all sure about. 3 times that amount.

The bit you are missing is that you are not getting the same books; otherwise you would just stay with Pradis. You are getting books that are fully integrated into the Logos library. Someone has to do this work and it costs money. If you don't want that functionality, just stay with Pradis. If you do want that functionality, you will have to pay for it. I think 40% discount is generous. No one works for free. We all have families to feed.

Keith Larson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/95690#Comment_95690

Some have said Pradis owners should be "happy" with the fact they are being ripped off because most of the proceeds go to Logos. Whether that's true or not I'm not sure. If it is true, then I'm as irritated at Logos as I am at Zondervan. Up until now, Logos has always provided a great product at a fair price. But this thread has got me wondering. Certainly, Logos bears no responsibility for Zondervan's treatment of it's customers, but if it's in their power to do something to ease the pain for Pradis customers, and they choose not to for profit sake that speaks volumes to me.

What you seem to be missing is that this is not an in house upgrade by Zondervan. Zondervan is now totally out of the software business. They have made the decision to farm out to Logos and others all the software preparation, development, and support. Logos and these other companies cannot do this for free. The expense of converting these books from Pradis format to Logos format is much greater than the cost was for when Zondervan upgraded their Pradis 5 resources to Pradis 6 format. In addition, it is easy to see just by looking at the Pradis products that their electronic books are "cheap" compared to Logos format books. Pradis books are little more than glorified PDFs. Probably costing only a faction to produce what it cost Logos to produce one of their books. Talk about ripe offs, the upgrade price of $25 per set that Zondervan was charging to upgrade from one version of Pradis to another was a rip off! That is why I refused to upgrade my Pradis software from 5 to 6.

Because Logos is basically operating as a sub-contractor for Zondervan they had to set a minimum price for what they would be willing to do this work for. My point is that $25/ per set is not even close to what Logos will be charging Zondervan to do this work. The price for doing this could be greater or lesser based on the anticipated volume of sales. As I have made it clear in other posts, I believe Zondervan's and Bakers decision to ask the MSRP for their PrePubs grantees a low volume of sales. Logos knows this too. Thus the price per set that Logos quoted Zondervan had to be higher than the $25 you are expecting. The problem is not the 40% upgrade discount, but the high PrePub price.

Here is the scenario I would have liked. A 40% discount on all PrePubs (and these PrePubs would not go into production until Logos' production costs are met, just like other PrePubs). Then Zondervan would offer a 50% discount for Pradis users (but only for the products they own, unlike the current upgrade). This would product an upgrade price on the EBC of $39 vs. the current $78 and the NIDOTT of $60 vs. the current $96. This would mean that Logos would have their cost covered and make a profit on all PrePub orders over 100%, plus any future sales. Zondervan would make nothing for upgrades and profit on all non-upgrade PrePub sales over the 100% mark and all future sales.

But my guess is that even if this is the way the PrePub and upgrade was set up, you would still be crying foul, because to pay the same upgrade price that moved you from one version of Yugo quality software (Pradis 5) to another version of Yugo quality software (Pradis 6), when what is being offered is an upgrade to BMW quality software (Logos).

Richard Crampton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/95757#Comment_95757

But my guess is that even if this is the way the PrePub and upgrade was set up, you would still be crying foul, because to pay the same upgrade price that moved you from one version of Yugo quality software (Pradis 5) to another version of Yugo quality software (Pradis 6), when what is being offered is an upgrade to BMW quality software

For someone who thinks himself an expert on Pradis you don't know very much. When Pradis went from version 5 to 6 they sent me an upgrade disk for free after I requested it. As I said elsewhere, your silly arrogance is getting on my nerves. I'll solve that problem by not not reading anymore of your drivel.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/96390#Comment_96390

Sometimes I think it is easy to get lost in the details of what appears (at least to some) to be a big change in a market place. What maybe happening here is the establishment of a de facto christian software standard in the e-book market. I wouldn't be surprised to see other competitors like PC-Study Bible joining forces with Logos in order to further consolidate this market. Of course all of this is based upon the excellence of past products and present library of Logos as envisioned by its ownership.

However, what seems to be apparent (imo) is that as this change happens that it will cost consumers increasingly large amounts of money to have the convenience of using electronic books to spread the Word of God. From a perspective other than a North American Middle/Upper Class with a history of conspicuous consumption how does spending say $500 for a computer, $400 for a base program, another $150 for upgrades every 18 months, and hundreds more for those must have prepubs look to the poor in other countries? Where convenience of use, most update push technology interface, and shelf space isn't necessarily the most important part of living out a Christian life in difficult circumstances. When viewed from such a perspective I wonder how these issues are seen by God...at this point this is just a question more than anything else.

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/96417#Comment_96417

From a perspective other than a North American Middle/Upper Class with a history of conspicuous consumption how does spending say $500 for a computer, $400 for a base program, another $150 for upgrades every 18 months, and hundreds more for those must have prepubs look to the poor in other countries?

Really though, you could say the same thing about paper books. They are just as unobtainable to the poor. And I'm sure I've spent far less on my Logos library than I would have to get it in paper format.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/96434#Comment_96434

From a perspective other than a North American Middle/Upper Class with a history of conspicuous consumption how does spending say $500 for a computer, $400 for a base program, another $150 for upgrades every 18 months, and hundreds more for those must have prepubs look to the poor in other countries?

Really though, you could say the same thing about paper books. They are just as unobtainable to the poor. And I'm sure I've spent far less on my Logos library than I would have to get it in paper format.

Indeed although $5 or $10 for a bible and $20 for a commentary maybe more reasonable than $1000 (minimum) for the convenience of an industry standard e-book. Yet somehow I think this misses the larger point especially in relation to the issues of price creep over an orphaned bible program.

Logan Hall

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/96390#Comment_96390

Hi Keith, with all due respect and in love, as someone not personally affected by the Pradis upgrades I sense the need to jump in and share that it appears to me in your attempt to help, you are stirring others to anger with your lines of reasoning. Facts concerning cost/profitability might make it more tolerable to those who feel slighted by Z, but so far most of your reasoning is based on hypotheticals. I don't think facts would help much either. You made your point several post back and it is clear that other Pradis owners diagree and are convinced that Z can and should do more. Seems to me that it is a principle thing to those who feel slighted. I tend to agree, profitability aside, Z should make every effort to be Christ exalting in their interaction with their customers. If they did, it sure would be an effort toward esteeming others more highly than themselves. Bet you if Z went over the top to bless their customers, the Lord would bless them in a big way in return. Who cares about profitability when we serve a God who assures us that we reap what we sow. So if you are listening in Z, it sure would bless a lot of folks and exalt the Lord if you got a little more others centered with discounts, maybe get real crazy and give them away for free. :-) That would be a seed sow that would surely bring a harvest.

Mike W

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/96437#Comment_96437

Indeed although $5 or $10 for a bible and $20 for a commentary maybe more reasonable than $1000 (minimum) for the convenience of an industry standard e-book. Yet somehow I think this misses the larger point especially in relation to the issues of price creep over an orphaned bible program.

As far as price creep this seems to be across the board. I've noticed that other bible study software companies are starting to charge about the same as Logos for books and they don't offer comparable base package discounts. Some companies are charging several hundred dollars for packages containing almost exclusively public domain works.

Lower income individuals won't have access to commentaries like the NIC or WBC in paper either. On the flip side though, there is a very good selection of public domain works available for free on the internet as well a few free bible study programs. Almost all of the commentaries and lexicons I used in school (late 70s) and during my first pastorate are currently available for free. One of our local megachurches offers a three hour class in using one of these programs (they will be uploading the class to YouTube after friday). One commercial software company offers an older version of thier program and several public domain for free.

As far as spending money of resources for bible study you could make the same argument about seminary (How can you spend $100,000 on a seminary education when there are areas where groups of people have to share a single bible?)

Keith Larson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/96449#Comment_96449

Hi Keith, with all due respect and in love, as someone not personally affected by the Pradis upgrades I sense the need to jump in and share that it appears to me in your attempt to help, you are stirring others to anger with your lines of reasoning.

It seems you are right. My line of reasoning did help me, but has not helped others. Believe it or not I don't like paying more than I have to for anything and I certainly don't like paying twice for the same product. I tried to sit back and ask why might the price be as high as it is, short of the simple answer that Zondervan and possibly even Logos are crooks. When I am angry at someone I find it helpful to try to explain the other person's actions in the best light possible.

so far most of your reasoning is based on hypotheticals

Well isn't all of our reasoning on this topic hypothetical? Who are any of us to say what would have been a fair upgrade price? Does any of us know the production cost for Logos? Does any of us know the ability of Zondervan to offer more than a 40% upgrade price? As you said some Pradis owners "are convinced that Z can and should do more." What make them so convinced? Where did that get this information?

I don't think facts would help much either.

This does seem to be the bottom line doesn't it. We are dealing with feelings here, not facts. So in that vain I want to say to all those who feel they have wasted hundreds of dollars on Zondervan ebooks, I feel for you. I too have wasted my money on many products that did not turn out to meet my expectations. Software seems to be especially prone to this. Purchasing anything in digital format is very risky. That is why I appreciate Logos so much. On that positive thought I am ending my participation in this thread.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/96459#Comment_96459

Mike I would agree that price creep seems to be an industry practice especially as the competitive environment is shrinking which (I think) brings up the question of relative value of the various limited choices in this market. Which also has ramifications for those of us who use the "premium" programs to help in ministerial situations.

I am not asking about spending money on seminary or several other issues that can be seen as tangential on the subject of pricing of orphaned Pradis users. What I am questioning, if that is the right term, is the hand wringing of those who view this pricing as too much and those who view it as just right....especially since this situation maybe met by users of other programs in the future. When put into a larger context does this conversation make any sense about paying hundreds of dollars for a series of e-books that has a rather limited audience within an developed nation community. To put it another way how did the Church of Jesus Christ ever survive without several thousands e-book resources and the latest exegetical resources that rehash the same technical points?

I think if a person wants to spend their money for these products, and I'm guilty, that they should if their ministry can use them. However, all of this (imo) can be seen in terms of North American consumer excess that is really unnecessary for service to the Kingdom during the process of ministry. When seen in this light pricing isn't such a big issue for me since its an extra anyway....but thats just me.