Linux version of Logos Bible Software

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This post has 666 Replies | 45 Followers

Posts 18
Jesse Steele | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 2 2016 6:49 PM

Amen! And, Amen! A thousand times AMEN!

Posts 18
Jesse Steele | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 2 2016 6:53 PM

React OS has one problem: It is unique.

Fedora is built on Linux, but has similar problems because of central control. Everything depends on RedHat customers and CentOS "testers".

Debian-Ubuntu is built on Linux, but it has a HUGE COMMUNITY. So, it doesn't all depend on just a few people to make it good. That's why it dominates.

...that said... I say let the community decide. If the ReactOS community wants to do the leg work and make a Logos version, Logos should let them. Try it out. That's Marketing Strategy 101: Everything must be tested and allowed to succeed and prove itself.

Posts 18
Jesse Steele | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 2 2016 7:23 PM

David J. Ring, Jr....

I REALLY agree with what you and Steven Yu have to say. And, I feel the same way.

The way is: The good people at Logos simply ALLOW the community permission to do it; an open source engine that can keep proprietary purchases secure.

Faithlife should know: Not having Logos on my Ubuntu desktop pushes me to become dependent on other Bible software. Linux grows every year, Ubuntu (built on Debian) is the most widely-used. Windows is despised and is losing the market. If another Debian Bible package becomes more useful before Logos wakes up, I won't use Logos anymore. And, I know that I'm not that special; many others will do the same.

Not to toot my own horn, but I just made this video, adapted from my Mandarin version, to help people install Ubuntu. I get great feedback because people are STARVING to escape from Windows and use Ubuntu. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMvaUCuePW4

If Faithlife will just ALLOW the Linux-Debian-Ubuntu community to make a desktop engine themselves, even not the prettiest, but just to have basic access to the purchased library, links, searches... then Logos may actually grow its customer base and ride the swelling Ubuntu tsunami. And, all the work would be done for them. Faithlife wouldn't need to invest money.

Here is a plan to make it happen:

1. Logos starts a GitHub profile: such as "logos" or "logosbible" namespace and "Logos for Linux" as the name. And, add a "logos-deb" repo (for Debian). Maybe a couple more... logos-wine (windows-based to work with the Wine library), logos-deb-macbase (based from mac version), logos-rpm (fedora)... Just start the repos and see who wants to add to them. I'm sure David Ring might be glad to help Faithlife do it at no charge, ask him :-)

2. Logos starts an AskUbuntu profile and just announces "We hear you! We want to let you guys make Logos for Linux! Here is our GitHub. Help us!"

3. Follow the GitHub pull requests daily, hire/approve (no money) project leaders to approve requests so Faithlife doesn't have to add any work to their full plate.

4. Logos grows its customer base at zero investment. As Ubuntu continues to grow, so does Logos because they are on the Ubuntu train.

5. Faithlife and the Logos team have to worry about all the speaking requests they get to explain "How we used Ubuntu to make money and get more people studying the Bible." They appear on talk shows and more people learn about them, all because they were smart enough to get "Logos for Linux".

;-) Linux-Love to you all!

Posts 15805
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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 3 2016 5:52 AM

Donovan R. Palmer:
I have read in a number of places that Mac is about 10% of the market share and Linux is 1%.You can look at this website to dig around for what you want: http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8 

August 2016 shows desktop group of "Linux" market usage is now 2.11 % along with OS X share down to 7.36 %

Desktop Web browser share shows Google Chrome at 53.97 % in August 2016

Chrome OS can be used for Chrome Brower plus ChromeBooks are relatively inexpensive and selling more than Windows laptops (13 Aug 2015 article) => http://www.zdnet.com/article/npd-chromebooks-outsell-windows-laptops/ and outselling Apple Mac models in the US as of May 2016 => https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/may/23/chromebook-mac-google-pc-sales 

Hence, suspect "Linux" market share increase from 1 % in Jun 2009 to 2.11 % in Aug 2016 primarily reflects growing ChromeBook usage, which could be a partial motivator for Faithlife development of Logos Web App (currently in beta for Logos Now members).

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 3 2016 6:12 AM

David J. Ring, Jr.:
I only turn on Windows to read my Logos books, then I boot back into Linux.

Logos Now members have access to Logos Web App (currently Beta as features are being ported) that allows Logos book reading plus more:

Also could use http://biblia.com for reading Logos books.

Caveat: Logos Web App and Biblia provide access to mobile resources.

David J. Ring, Jr.:

Linux just works, and it works very well!

For open source, "Linux" tends to be associated with GNU Public License. Other open source distributions have different licensing: e.g. Berkeley Software Distribution (BSD).  Apple includes over 200 open source projects in OS X (macOS) along with using an open source kernel that also works well; the mach kernel in Darwin is a BSD derivative.

David J. Ring, Jr.:

The reason that I want Linux isn't so much that I don't want to pay for an operating system, it's because I have a rock solid operating system, and if I need a program to do something once, I'm not obliged to spend $100 for a program just to improve contrast in a photograph, we have GIMP (and GIMP for Windows!) for that.  If I need to edit a pdf file, I can use a open source program and do it, no cost to me.

GIMP also works on OS X (macOS) and open source distributions.  The "Preview" application included in OS X (macOS) is poorly named since it can edit/annotate a pdf.

Caveat: a legal license of OS X (macOS) needs corresponding Apple hardware purchase. Apple Mac models are long overdue for hardware refresh, reading rumors of later this year, which should reduce prices of older refurbished models.

Thankful for a refurbished 2011 MacBook Air (1.7 GHz i5 with 4 GB RAM) that decently runs Logos 7 (with an external USB for resource file storage since internal SSD lacks space for my library; symbolic link for one resource folder reliably works).  Albeit quick exit from car caused USB drive to split apart. Thankfully USB drive still works and shell could be snapped back together.

David J. Ring, Jr.:

Plus the command line in Linux does things that are more or less cumbersome or impossible with a graphical program and it does things fast.

Terminal application in OS X (macOS) has command line interface with choice of shell, default is bash with option of: csh, ksh, sh, tcsh, zsh

Cygwin is open source for Windows that provides command line interface: e.g. bash, csh, mksh, tcsh ...

Command switch compatibility depends on the command implementation, which is also true for open source distributions.

David J. Ring, Jr.:
Linux also is so much easier to maintain,

In OS X (macOS), the Apple Store has effectively integrated a package manager for updating the operating system (with an interface designed for non-technical user). Depends on the security update, both open source and OS X (macOS) can need system reboot. Like open source distributions, upgrading and patching OS X (macOS) is free.

David J. Ring, Jr.:
Im just sick of haiving my Windows computers hijacked, infected, filled with all sorts of malware ...

By default, Windows 10 includes a key logger enabled to send stuff. Privacy settings allow user to choose "Off" in the graphical interface (not know if privacy setting is effective or just eye candy).

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 18
Jesse Steele | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 3 2016 6:56 AM

Hey, Mr. Keep Smiling...

I think you may have missed a few points. And, I want your input on these...

David, and others have concurred, said he needed a LOCAL client, not cloud. So, the web app doesn't solve his/our problem.

Also, Mac OS X and Windows having command line options doesn't help someone working at LInux all day.

...He knows Linux, uses command line Linux, and wants command line LINUX to help him use Logos. He wants Logos to join his working world all day. And, his Linux work probably includes a church website and email.

Also, if Apple can get open source, then Logos has no reason not to LET LINUX PEOPLE MAKE LOGOS FOR LINUX ON THEIR OWN.

...The "open source" idea isn't because we are looking for open source, but that LOGOS CAN ALLOW IT on Linux.

Also, if GIMP can run on Mac and Windows, then Logos ought to also.

...That is the immediate thought of us awesome Linux users who keep your local church websites up and running, when you mention GIMP.

See, we Linux people (who keep so many church websites up and running) kind of already know all these things. And, we are glad to help you understand. We are kind of evangelists about the awesome things that let us help the Church so.

We suspect that Faithlife doesn't know about Linux, and you don't seem to understand our world either. With love, we are thrilled to help you understand what keeps your websites going so smoothly.

SEPARATELY......

About Linux at 2%. This Wiki reports over 20%. I am genuinely curious on your comments. I like truth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems

How about web servers? This survey puts some Apache tools staggeringly high. This implies a lot of local churches.

https://news.netcraft.com/archives/2016/02/22/february-2016-web-server-survey.html

So, your church web guy, like David, is making your church site awesome all day long, but he can't use Logos...

...because Mac has open source, but Logos doens't? ...because GIMP is on Windows, Mac, and Linux, but Logos isn't? That is your implication by bringing it up. This seems strange to we Linux people who keep your church websites running for you.

But, now I'm curious. What is Logos' market share?

...Given that Linux users love helping people, churches, and businesses with useful software so much, Logos could gain a lot of users, like David's friends, but who have thrown up their hands from being ignored.

In case you also missed this part, again, we want Logos to retain proprietary capability, only the engine itself to be open source so the LINUX COMMUNITY can do it themselves at no cost.

Do you know? Our Linux friends who develop your church websites are already finding open source software to use instead of Logos? I don't like that. David doesn't like that. David and I want Logos to hurry up and LET THE LINUX COMMUNITY make Logos for Linux so Logos doesn't get replaced by Linux's 20% and growing open source free-ness from the 70% and growing community of LInux people running church websites for you.

We all love Logos. But we all love Linux a little more because it's like salvation: price is paid and we spread the good news.

And  we love you Mr. Keep Smiling,

Jesse Steele

Posts 59
David J. Ring, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 3 2016 8:26 AM

Jesse,

One other advantage of Linux is that it supports the latest hardware.  I had been thinking of going Mac but Linux just works so we'll.  No waiting like Apple. I'd be happy in a command line interface all day, do i get most of my work done that way.  Even coding a website in HTML sends tedious, when you choose it rather than using a graphical interface the pages load much faster and better.

I have a feeling some think Linux users don't want to pay, there may be some but not me, there is a place for open source no cost and proprietary software.  If Faithlife could develop a safe that could handle giving me the boss I have paid for and keep those who haven't paid for those books oit, I'd be very be very happy.

if the rest of the program was open source, that would be amazing.

Microsoft gave Logos a tremendous boost up with their tools for programmers, but Windows is just so overly complicated the more it tries to present itself as simple.

Best wishes,

David

Posts 15805
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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 3 2016 9:08 AM

Jesse Steele:

David, and others have concurred, said he needed a LOCAL client, not cloud. So, the web app doesn't solve his/our problem.

Concur Logos Web App does not solve offline use, especially where internet connectivity is unreliable or slow.

Logos wiki has Logos 7 => Online Only that shows many features that are unusable offline.

Jesse Steele:

Also, Mac OS X and Windows having command line options doesn't help someone working at LInux all day.

...He knows Linux, uses command line Linux, and wants command line LINUX to help him use Logos. He wants Logos to join his working world all day. And, his Linux work probably includes a church website and email.

Please elaborate on desired Logos integration with church website and email.

On 29 Jul 2016, Faithlife posted => New! Free church bulletin editor, online bulletins

Faithlife publishes many web sites => https://faithlife.com/about/what-we-do plus has a Proclaim forum => Proclaim: Church Presentation Software 

OS X (mac OS) offers same command line work flow opportunities as a "LINUX" open source distribution plus can use Logos Bible Software.

Church website and email implies online access so Logos Web App should be viable for Linux use. Also website can freely use RefTagger, which has its own forum for discussion => RefTagger

Jesse Steele:
...because Mac has open source, but Logos doens't? ...because GIMP is on Windows, Mac, and Linux, but Logos isn't? That is your implication by bringing it up. This seems strange to we Linux people who keep your church websites running for you.

When porting Logos 4 from Windows to Mac, Faithlife developers choose to implement Apple's proprietary graphical interface and not cross platform like GIMP, Firefox, Chrome, ...

For sharing substantial .NET code base between Windows and OS X (mac OS), open source mono is used by Faithlife for Logos, Verbum, and Noet applications.

Jesse Steele:

...The "open source" idea isn't because we are looking for open source, but that LOGOS CAN ALLOW IT on Linux.

Open source alternative is enabling OS X Cocoa application binaries to run on many open source distributions.

What makes OSX programs not runnable on Linux? => http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/3322/what-makes-osx-programs-not-runnable-on-linux includes link to Darling => http://www.darlinghq.org/project-status/ that still needs many hours of community development. After fours years not yet viable for an application like Logos.

Logos wiki => Mac Release Notes and History shows many years were needed to port WPF graphical interface to Apple Cocoa, essentially from Logos 4.0 Alpha to Logos 5.0 release.

Jesse Steele:

About Linux at 2%. This Wiki reports over 20%. I am genuinely curious on your comments. I like truth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems 

Stat Counter July 2016 shows desktop browser usage at 1.54 % for Linux. 0.35 % for Chrome OS, and 9.61 % for OS X.  Noted 1.54 % + 0.35 % = 1.89 % for "Linux" grouping, which is about 2 %.

Stack Overflow survey of English speaking developers shows 21.7 % Linux Kernel based usage, which is less than 26.2 % for Apple OS X and less than 52.02 % overall for Windows (with Windows 10 having 20.6 % usage) along with trend for developers moving away from Windows to an operating system with an open source kernel.

Video game platform Stream shows Mac OS with 3.55 % share and Linux with 0.95 % share in January 2016.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 18
Jesse Steele | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 3 2016 9:39 AM

OK. Great. Looks like Keep Smiling 4 Jesus knows a lot.

So... When will Faithlife give the OK for the Linux community to develop it themselves?

...Never suggested Logos for websites and email. But, the people who do web for much of the Church are good to have as friends and to listen to since they give software recommendations to boards, etc. But, it sounds like a good idea. Whoever develops Bible desktop to work command line to our Linux websites first wins. Anyone?

Logos?

Can We the Linux People make Logos for LInux for you at no cost?

Posts 18
Jesse Steele | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 3 2016 9:45 AM

David, I totally agree with you on many, many things. I'm JesseSteele.com. Hit me up. I'm interested in your work. A lot of Linux is about compatibility. And, what do you think about Mr. Smiling's suggestion for a desktop Bible app the plugs-in to an Apache website on the back end? I'd love to take my Logos work and embed it in my website with a Logos for Linux app running on it. I could do my Daily Greek Devo I've always wanted!

How about just requesting to build a "Logos proprietary repo" module for Xiphos Bible Guide in the deb repo? OR, just a DRM-friendly add-on of sorts that connects to Logos repos. I think that might be simpler in the meanwhile.

I have no idea how to build that right now. I'm working on other projects. I just want permission from Faithlife for interested people to do it themselves. Permission is the start. Logos doesn't need to invest.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 3 2016 2:39 PM

Jesse Steele:
Whoever develops Bible desktop to work command line to our Linux websites first wins. Anyone?

What functionality is desired for Bible desktop command line for web sites ?

Does your web site(s) use RefTagger ? => RefTagger Support FAQ

Jesse Steele:
I'd love to take my Logos work and embed it in my website with a Logos for Linux app running on it. I could do my Daily Greek Devo I've always wanted!

Have you looked at http://transliterate.com ? http://bible.logos.com ? http://books.logos.com ? (all published by Faithlife)

Logos Web App can be used for "More Light on the Path" with New International Greek Commentary on Luke

Realizing Logos Web App has potential for cross site scripting to embed Logos in other web site(s).  

Something to ponder is publishing your own web site with Logos capabilities seems to enable one library to be used by more than one human being, which does not mesh well with EULA => https://www.logos.com/support/eula 

Jesse Steele:

David, and others have concurred, said he needed a LOCAL client, not cloud. So, the web app doesn't solve his/our problem.

My volunteer user speculation is potential of Logos Web App being embedded in an application that uses .NET engine on OS X (mac OS) for offline library access on open source distributions.  Noticed Chromium Embedded Framework (CEF) has been incorporated in applications on Windows and OS X (mac OS).

Jesse Steele:

So... When will Faithlife give the OK for the Linux community to develop it themselves?

What is the profitable business incentive for Faithlife ? Documenting code for open source development along with answering community questions and testing community contributions has costs and time.

Seem to remember community support for a code weavers bounty pledge to port Logos 4 to Linux being less than 1 % of estimated cost (about $ 1,250 in pledges from open source community).  Hence, what is the motivation for significant "free" development by the community?

From 11 Sep 2009 reply => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/121/9528.aspx#9528

trahajje:
I doubt we'll see a 100% cloud experience with Logos anytime soon

Here "soon" turned out to start almost six years later => The Logos Web App: FAQ

Considering complexity of graphical interface, am anticipating years for Logos Web App to reach parity with Logos 7 (or 8).

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 18
Jesse Steele | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 3 2016 6:01 PM

Mr. Smiling,

There is need for clarity... I like the part of your ideas that are on-topic...

Much of what you said related to the OS choice in the first place, not whether to "ALLOW" the development of an app for people who have already made the choice for Linux.

Generally, the "Linux" question is a "let" question. "Logos for Linux" means: "Non-Faithlife people build it ON THEIR OWN INITIATIVE or it doesn't happen."

(That is Linux culture. I didn't know that until I started using Linux in 2013.)

This thread was not about whether WE should use Linux in the first place, but whether Faithlife wants to LET US to use Logos on our Linux systems.

The purpose of discussing stats and market share, here, is to observe changes and trends, informing solvency and marketability, not about which OS is "better" for us customers to choose in the first place. Those stats say Linux is growing, which means it's not sinking and has a future. So, "has a future" isn't a bad decision.

I see stats as saying this:

Stats --> Linux growing --> future --> Logos can do Linux and have a growing future

...That is why I discuss them.

...About previous attempt(s) of Logos for Linux...

Perhaps the community development for the Logos 4 engine port to Linux failed because Logos/Faithlife/Libronix/whoeverownsitthisweek tried to do too much. JUST MAKE A GITHUB WITH THE SDK AND FORGET ABOUT IT.

...I haven't seen you respond to "LETTING" or "ALLOWING" the community. You don't have to do everything yourself. That's kind of the idea. If the community never does anything, that's our problem.

...Are the Logos 4 engine binaries published to a GitHub profile? You haven't provided any GitHub URLs. if not, that is probably another reason why it got little community support. Linux users like to develop on GitHub for many reasons you can find with Google, which I won't waste space sharing here. Even Linus Torvalds uses GitHub for developing. No github.com/?????/logos = no Logos on Linux.

And, I am still interested in those stats on the percentage of users using Logos. Of 95%-ish desktop users using Windows in these OS stats, how many of those people use Logos at all? What all OSs do they use? How many Logos customers are developers? How many Logos customers have Debian installed alongside Windows?

And, I didn't think we were talking about video game development. Though, now that you mention those stats, it does seem that the Logos road map aims at high graphics rather than content connecting compatibility. So, maybe game dev stats are relevant. Logos wants something that uses GPU. Linxu users want something else...

Ultimately, "Logos for Linux" means 1. that we can login and access our libraries ALL THROUGH the command line if we want and 2. a GitHub repo of an open source version of the engine that protects proprietary content. We don't want "pretty", we want "command line for Linux". (...not command line or open source on Mac, not on Windows, this thread is about Linux.)

About website support...

You actually brought up Logos integrating with web. I just mentioned that we Linux people are in the know and support a lot you rely on. We are smart people with the power to refer and recommend software. We WANT to recommend Logos more. Using another website engine (from a company that still hasn't ported to Linux) isn't our question. Get a Logos GitHub for Linux that WE can get working, let the community do it, then we might be interested in your Faithlife web products.

About Faithlife web service, as I understand from the stats, most web servers run Linux. If Faithlife wants in on the web-dev world, a Logos for Linux client is all they would need and they would have their foot in the door. That's another reason to get on Linux: web dominance.

As for why a Linux developer might like Logos on his LAMP websites...

...The main functionality would be how/why we like Linux: Backend connectivity.

...Not fancy graphics. Not pretty Flash that doesn't always work.

Like with other software, we install the Logos client on the server, then the backend can talk to our own web interface via the LINUX command line (or XML or a LAMP database if it is on another OS)... Then we can do "stuff"... whatever we imagine for the week.

As for EULA, you know that Logos has some library contents that are public domain. The unspoken agreement in the Linux world is that we would use the public domain part publicly. (I certainly hope that Logos would not prevent us from sharing public domain content in their libraries on their free engine. if they do then I recommend changing that in the next EULA update, which closes that question.)

...As for EULA-applicable proprietary content on websites (again, of course), we awesome Linux developers who make so many websites for so many people would LOVE to have a Logos client working on Linux, which would automatically mean that the client running on the server could use the command interface to talk to a web user's Logos client to share proprietary content through our own web inventions. Then, we can get more of our customers using Logos on ANY OS.

Eg: I do a Bible study, post it on my WordPress blog that has a plugin talking to the Logos for Linux client running on the same LAMP web server, a web visitor can see SOME allowed content (as EULA might allow for printing, etc.) Then, the visitor can see a little, OR, he can sync and share notes with his local Logos client. I tell my website customers that I can do this, they get more of their people using Logos.

...MAYBE, probably not though, that creates an unspoken problem. JUST MAYBE Logos dev doesn't want my Bible study notes going through anything but THEIR server. Maybe Faithlife wants ALL MY BIBLE STUDY NOTES on their cloud server. I don't think Faithlife would want such privacy invasion, but that is the underlying Linux question.

Faithlife can have awesome cloud services. But, the reason people use Linux in the first place, partially, is about content control. What if I don't want my Bible study notes in your cloud? What if Faithlife gets purchased by CNN or a Chinese company looking to spy on Christians... or hires a mole... or... Many books have already been written on basic security questions. So, I won't rehash those discussions here. Reagan called it "trust but verify".

I like Faithlife's cloud idea, though it is definitely a premium service, arguably luxury. But, I don't need it for everything all the time always. Some things I just want on my local client. And, I'm glad to buy more and more and more proprietary books for Logos... IF I CAN USE IT WHERE I WORK, which I and many more than I have already decided is Linux... which is a decision that this thread is not about.

Stepping back to look at where your answers have gone, I am starting to wonder if the Logos on Linux question is about fundamental worldviews. Linux users like to use open, non-centralized sharing. Sure, we have proprietary stuff in secure areas where we all make money. And, NO ONE CONTROLS ALL OF ANYTHING, which allows cooperation and progress. It's not even about privacy so much as it is about giving each other permission to share the work load and therefore share the credit and the control.

...It seems that Logos/Faithlife/Libronix/whateverwecallitthisweek likes to do a lot of the planning themselves. That isn't an OS compatibility discussion, but a worldview compatibility discussion. I certainly hope Logos can get SOME of their awesome proprietary and open libraries into the growing Linux world.

As for the product dev roadmap question, "Is Logos for Linux part of strategy?" Libronix promised long ago that "the engine would always be free". That really means that it needs to be "allowed" on Linux—not "guaranteed", just "allowed" if other people want to do the port. That means, really, that Faithlife should just upload most/all of the Logos 4 binaries to a GitHub, then forget about it and go on to other projects.

The Linux question is not about code or more things on the Logos developer to-do list. It's about "ALLOWING". Please mention this in your next reply, Mr. Smiling.

Logos for Linux is what this thread is about. That question is more about allowing SOME of the Logos products (the free stuff) to live on GitHub as Open Source. "Openness" is what the REAL "Linux" question comes down to, for anyone who "really understands" Linux.

...Again, because you seem to have missed this, Linux is about "allowing" other people to do the leg work where suggestions and problems they find are concerned. It's not about flashy-web-shinyness and cool, high-GPU load experiences. We want the binaries and permission to fork them.

So... Maybe this thread really should be about letting basic back-end stuff be open to Linux developers on GitHub, dump the Logos 4 engine and a proprietary library SDK on to GitHub for us to fork and pull, no extra work for Faithlife/Libronix/whatever....

...Then, the Windows and OSX and web-cloud distros are more about fancy user experience.

See... All those people going to your fancy cloud website and buying Logos 7 beautifulness... Many of them attend a small local church with a website on a LAMP server developed by a Linux geek like us. He won't change his mind about Linux and he's not asking, but he would love to get Logos there too. He just needs Logos 4 on GitHub with an Apache or GNU license.

I am interested in your knowledge and ideas, Mr. Smiling. But, please keep "WHETHER to use Linux on desktop or web" related info on a different thread. This is a thread about whether LOGOS (not we Logos customers and/or web developers) should become part of Linux in the open source/freemium/proprietary/growing platform with the people who already made that choice.

Now, I, personally, would like a clear and official answer from Faithlife staff, approved by the correct responsible management: Would Logos/Libronix/Faithlife allow 1. an SDK for remote command-line login to proprietary content on Logos servers and 2. for the free Logos 4 engine itself to become completely open source and "ALLOWED" for other developers to make it work on Linux if those third party developers do all the legwork?

Mr. Smiling: That is not you, at least I hope Faithlife staff won't call themselves "Keep Smiling" on the forum and work weekends. Though, I would also like to know if you think yes/no Faithlife should offer 1 and/or 2 (above) to we who use an OS that you don't seem to prefer.

Posts 18
Jesse Steele | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 3 2016 8:37 PM

...And, Mr. Smiling,

I have been really thinking about all you have to say. After my morning Bible study, I am thinking...

Maybe YOU are the answer!

You know SO MUCH about all this.

Can you answer my questions and point me in a direction? Can you tell me how to use a command line (even windows) to log on to the Logos server and retrieve my library through the command line?

If I can learn some basic command line stuff, I might be able to get at least a command-line version of Logos working and that should make the "Go Linux" people happy since, frankly, that's what we really want in the first place.

Maybe YOU are the person to help me to help all the rest of us!

Keep smiling!

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 3 2016 10:15 PM

Jesse Steele:
Get a Logos GitHub for Linux that WE can get working, let the community do it, then we might be interested in your Faithlife web products.

Faithlife has 34 GitHub repositories => https://github.com/Faithlife that includes RefTagger, which is already being used by many web sites for pop-up of Bible verse text. Forum RefTagger has threads dating back to Oct 2009 (near the time of conversion from newsgroup to forum discussions).

Jesse Steele:

I see stats as saying this:

Stats --> Linux growing --> future --> Logos can do Linux and have a growing future

Faithlife corporation concurs with online future being profitable so they began actively developing Logos Web App in 2015 that can be used on open source distributions along with Windows, OS X (mac OS), iOS, and Android, which can include tablet devices and ChromeBooks.

Logos UserVoice suggestion now has 382 votes (# 9) => https://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-6/suggestions/3635847-make-logos-4-and-5-avalible-to-individuals-on-ubun 

Jesse Steele:
...As for EULA-applicable proprietary content on websites (again, of course), we awesome Linux developers who make so many websites for so many people would LOVE to have a Logos client working on Linux, which would automatically mean that the client running on the server could use the command interface to talk to a web user's Logos client to share proprietary content through our own web inventions. Then, we can get more of our customers using Logos on ANY OS.

Recommend reading => Fire Someone Today by Bob Prichett, Faithlife CEO

Sharing proprietary content from one Logos library to many web site users has potential contract ramifications with various publishers, which could include royalty payments. Hence, anticipate Faithlife corporation having desires for their own web sites to be used for EULA compliance.

Faithlife has Software Developer job available for an awesome developer => https://faithlife.com/jobs/SoftwareDeveloper

Jesse Steele:
...MAYBE, probably not though, that creates an unspoken problem. JUST MAYBE Logos dev doesn't want my Bible study notes going through anything but THEIR server. Maybe Faithlife wants ALL MY BIBLE STUDY NOTES on their cloud server. I don't think Faithlife would want such privacy invasion, but that is the underlying Linux question.

Faithlife already enables your Notes to be freely shared with other Faithlife users => https://documents.logos.com plus sync between your devices running an app (mobile) or application (desktop/laptop). Also can use the Faithlife documents web site to view your Notes.

Thankful that Visual Filters can be shared => Examples of visual filters (highlighted text is a challenge for command line, perhaps JSON)

Jesse Steele:
And, I am still interested in those stats on the percentage of users using Logos. Of 95%-ish desktop users using Windows in these OS stats, how many of those people use Logos at all? What all OSs do they use? How many Logos customers are developers? How many Logos customers have Debian installed alongside Windows?

Support page => https://www.logos.com/support shows "five platform or devices" with four groups of operating systems:

  • Windows
  • OS X (mac OS)
  • iOS
  • Android

The fifth device, Kindle Fire, uses a custom Android variant.

Apologies since this volunteer with many posts (MVP) does not know the operating share usage of Faithlife users.

Jesse Steele:
Mr. Smiling: That is not you, at least I hope Faithlife staff won't call themselves "Keep Smiling" on the forum and work weekends. Though, I would also like to know if you think yes/no Faithlife should offer 1 and/or 2 (above) to we who use an OS that you don't seem to prefer.

Depends on task to be done for my operating system preference; like to use what works well plus readily switch OS to get task done.

Personal user opinions:

  1. No for remote command line login SDK; recommend using one of the Faithlife web servers to access your library content
  2. No for open sourcing of Faithlife engine for custom user interface creation

Another suggestion thread => Linux - Ubuntu may be interesting to read.

Jesse Steele:
Maybe YOU are the answer!

Am praying and seeking God's calling; not yet know where God wants me working to join Him for His glory.

Keep Smiling Smile is my reminder of Philippians 4:4 where Paul was Rejoicing in the Lord always (while in very unpleasant circumstances).

Thankful for many friendly forum discussions; have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 2
Joe Cassada | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 3 2016 10:21 PM

If Logos doesn't make this happen, I am willing to help with development of a new Bible study program for Linux.

I can't code, but I can help with graphics somewhat, or wherever I can fit in.

The programs available right now for Linux are noble efforts...but very clunky and ugly. There really needs to be more options.

It's time to set churches and ministries free from abusive, proprietary software. I have no problems paying for good software and tech service, but many churches are getting slapped with unjust DRM lawsuits. The less churches have to rely on Mac, Microsoft, and Adobe, etc. the better. Logos could be the good guy here and help out the Open Source community. It would be good for churches in the long run (in my opinion), and Logos could still make money.

This is just the right thing to do, and Linux really ought to be the future for churches and ministries.

I'll come back and rant in another couple years.

Posts 18
Jesse Steele | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 4 2016 6:22 AM

Joe, I'm jessesteele.com. Hit me up ASAP.

Posts 18
Jesse Steele | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 4 2016 6:27 AM

Mr. Phil 4:4, :-)

Thank you for answering my questions 1 and 2.

I feel we have a lot clarified now. Though, I still don't see what % of Americans are running Logos.

I see from the vote you linked to that Faithlife's president is supposedly a former Microsoft guy, which explains a lot... Including that previous software was probably built on MS stuff, making him a fit to begin with.

PLEASE ANSWER ME THIS: I do NOT want any EULA violations. I don't imply it. If you think that, we misunderstand.

...I was suggesting "whatever" would stay withing EULA.

Please respond that you got that part. I care that you know. :-)

Of awesome programmers, I don't think Linux is the Faithlife president former Microsoft guy's pick.

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 4 2016 12:02 PM

Jesse Steele:
I feel we have a lot clarified now. Though, I still don't see what % of Americans are running Logos.

Friendly discussion helped me appreciate Faithlife's direction. Do recommend Logos Now membership that includes Logos Web App access, which is already noticeably better for Logos library interaction in an open source browser than Biblia.

+1 Curious about Faithlife application and app usage. Thankful for free software, albeit wallet cries Crying for many resource purchases. More resources does enable search to find useful articles on a variety of topics.

Jesse Steele:
...I was suggesting "whatever" would stay withing EULA.

Without an account, Faithlife offers 51 Bibles for free reading at https://biblia.com that also has an api.biblia.com web site.

For resources licensed to one Logos library to be used by one human being, an intermediate web site would need to either embed a Faithlife web site (e.g. frame) or pass along user credentials (with potential for security disaster). Simplier option is linking to appropriate Faithlife web site(s).

Public domain observation: text is free, but incredible tagging added by Faithlife for insightful Bible study is not.

Jesse Steele:
Of awesome programmers, I don't think Linux is the Faithlife president former Microsoft guy's pick

Prior to Microsoft acquiring Xamarin (with developers that maintain Mono), Faithlife was using Ceph from Red Hat in their Data Center => Data Center Storage Failure, 11/21 and => Data Center Storage Failure, 11/21 (Continued) includes more Linux insights: e.g. XFS kernel bug triggered by load. plus Inktank support discount in 2014

Jim Straatman:

I just want to take a moment and express how blessed I am to be working with such a talented team. Inktank has many enterprise customers, and according to them, we (and by we I mean Richard) are one of the most sophisticated outfits they’ve encountered. So much so, they are discounting our support contract by 15%, representing the value we’ll provide back into their product. Moreover, the Faithlife Operations team is one of the first in the world to deploy Joyent SmartDataCenter 7 under new open source licensing terms, all under duress and in a matter of hours.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 1095
Myke Harbuck | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 4 2016 12:38 PM

Steven Yu:

Once again, I am pushing foward for a Linux version of Logos, a lot of user are using Linux, and we have been struggling to break away from Windows, but Logos has always been the single software that require us to either dual boot or run a virtual machine with Linux OS.

Anyone share the same view?

I never ceased to be blown away by the number of views the Linux topic generates, even though I would not think there are that many Linux users, LOL. I mean, 279,000 ??? WOW! Crazy! 

Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College
Mac OS 10.13.6 High Sierra, Mid 2015 iMac, 2.5GHz i7, 32 gbRAM, 1tbSSD

Posts 1945
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 5 2016 1:24 AM

Myke Harbuck:
even though I would not think there are that many Linux users, LOL. I mean, 279,000 ??? WOW! Crazy! 

There must be more users than one has been told.  The Linux system is excellent, fast, and getting much more popular.  It can be a clear replacement for Windows.  It is much better.  There are only two reasons why I have not completely switched.  One is the concern I have for protecting my children (parental filters) and the other is my investment in Logos Bible Software. 

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