Again: Trapped feeling

Page 1 of 2 (32 items) 1 2 Next >
This post has 31 Replies | 6 Followers

Posts 6
Doug Lumpkin | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Dec 29 2015 3:43 PM

So a couple times a year I find myself in this spot.  When I bought Logos 4 in 2008 it was a huge purchase for a student starting seminary but I figured it was a good investment.  Later that year I learned that way too many of those thousands of books in the packages were not acceptable resources. So I spent more money on quality commentaries, dictionaries, etc... And got my first taste of disappointment in the software.

During that first purchase the salesman led me to believe that updates to the program were part of what I was paying so much for.  Logos 5 rolls around, and that of course turned out not to be true.  Again, that feeling.

About once a year, I go through this stage.  There is something I want (Tyndale Commentary Set this time around).  Logos has it for $230... others have it for $99.  Same feeling.

When do you decide it is time to just hang it up? The extra features and indexes and what have you rarely get use.  Do I keep investing in this program because that is where all of my money is tied up?

Ugghhhh...

Thoughts?

Posts 27928
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 29 2015 4:12 PM

Doug Lumpkin:
The extra features and indexes and what have you rarely get use.

If you run searches or use hover/click on references and footnotes you are using the indexing/tagging/labeling. And no, you don't pay for updates to the program ... you pay for resources that power new features. So if you get that "trapped feeling" - use your head not your gut. Geeked

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1031
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 29 2015 4:17 PM

You can get that set in Logos for much less. I paid very little for it. I will to stick to forum rules but if you do a little googling you'll find it.

In terms of sticking with the platform I tell myself that it works out well on average. I can't have a similar library at such a low price any other way. There is the odd book which I could have gotten cheaper, sometimes considerably so, but overall I'm doing well.

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

Posts 2764
Erwin Stull, Sr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 29 2015 4:57 PM

I am quite happy with Logos. It met me where I was, is with me where I am now, and I'm confident that it will be capable of being beside me where I am going. Some resources cost a little (and sometimes a lot) more than you can find elsewhere, but you will need to find value in the Logos platform in order to be ok with the cost. In the case of the Tyndale Commentaries, they do go on-sale from time to time for much less than the $230 (I think they were $129 no so long ago) and as has been mentioned, you may be able to find them in Libronix format by doing some research. By all means, you do not want to split your high cost resources using multiple platforms. In the long run that will bring the value of your system down and the cost up.

The bottom line is to only continue investing in something (anything) that you find value in. That will be the difference between it being a blessing or a curse. A question to ask yourself, is "am I just having a moment? Or is this a feeling that has indwelled itself in my spirit?".

Personally, I am biased towards Logos. I am comfortable with and like the platform, the company, the management, and the staff, but I know and understand that doesn't speak for everyone.

Be blessed, and have a happy new year showered with peace, prosperity, and well being. Smile

Posts 2337
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 29 2015 5:16 PM

The only time I feel "trapped" in Logos is when I don't use it. Pretty much could be said of anything you put your time, money and intentions into something. When you use something everyday, you stop looking at what something costs and start valuing the use.

Logos 6 is so far ahead of what Logos 4 promised. Even without new features, the performance is much better.

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 2143
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 29 2015 7:57 PM

For me, Logos has been an immensely liberating experience.  I have trouble becoming giddy over it.  

Hang around to get sale prices and you won't pay excessively.  

Stick with one platform for major purchases.  I use a little of this and that--a sort of smorgasboard for free stuff or stuff acquired over the years elsewhere. I even have a SQL Bible database with all kinds of other cool stuff and still roll-my-own queries from it, that I can't get any other way.  Nowadays, I am trying to replace everything with Logos resources and wish I had started that since day 1.

Posts 993
JohnB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2015 2:31 AM

Try Amazon in UK and USA for Tyndale on CD.

Why does no one seem to complain when Logos is less expensive than Amazon?????


Logos, can you consider price matching Amazon??

Posts 383
Daniel Bender | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2015 5:28 AM

MJ. Smith:

Doug Lumpkin:
The extra features and indexes and what have you rarely get use.

If you run searches or use hover/click on references and footnotes you are using the indexing/tagging/labeling. And no, you don't pay for updates to the program ... you pay for resources that power new features. So if you get that "trapped feeling" - use your head not your gut. Geeked

Yes Great advice 

Posts 549
Shawn Drewett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2015 6:21 AM

Doug I think it's simply a matter of priorities. I very much wish I had back much of what I've spent on Logos products. Why? Because I use only utilize a small percentage of the resources I've purchased over my nearly 17 years of owning Logos products. Now I have a wife and 4 kids. I could use some of that money now! It's a thrill to buy new resources but consider your budget priorities. One year I used my entire bonus from my part time job to buy a commentary set which I found was not much help to me. The forums are good to get counsel as to exactly what is good for your particular studies. God bless your ministry. 

Posts 3199
Whyndell Grizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2015 6:26 AM

Yes- buyer beware- even with Logos- there are things you don't need.

Posts 2831
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2015 6:53 AM

I reluctantly came to the conclusion that there are resources in which the Logos tagging is very important to me, and there are resources in which the tagging is not very important to me.  I just want to read the text, or I can do a manual search.

For nearly 20 years I bought all my resources in Logos format.  But now I do take into account the importantance of the tagging and the cost of the resources.   Also, there are resources not available in Logos that I want.  Therefore, I now have two Bible software programs on my computer.  You know what, it is no problem to use them both.  Alt - tab works really well.

I always prefer to buy from Logos.  I have tens of thousands of dollars invested in Logos over about 25 years.  They are my first choice.  But they are no longer my only choice.  That especially so if there are hundreds of dollars difference in the price.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 2375
Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2015 6:59 AM

My experience is that it goes both ways.  Sometimes I purchase resources I really want, only to find I that rarely use them.  Other times I have discovered "hidden gems" in packages that I use frequently.

Posts 945
Everett Headley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2015 7:15 AM

In response to OP: I too understand that feeling of trapped.  However, when I bought Logos, they only other option out there at the time was PC Study Bible which was not as good as Logos.  Now that I'm invested in Logos, I try to not think too much about the greener grass on the other side.  I do think that Logos' pricing is inflated even with the much touted "value added."   Where I feel most trapped is that Logos puts out products that have a gross amount of errors and the timetable to get them fixed is always in flux and never published.  Then I feel trapped that the money I paid for a resource has been misappropriated.  I pay for full, complete and continuing use of a resource.

Posts 197
Stephen Terlizzi | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2015 8:53 AM

Michael summarizes my sentiments as well. Also, with the current restructuring happening in the Verbum division, I have become very concerned. Logos remains my first choice for electronic purchases, particularly around biblical-related commentaries and the like. However, I will consider simply buying a Kindle book when significantly less expensive.

I also feel that Faithlife is expanding into too many new product segments and not allocating proper resources to ongoing development of Logos/Verbum and Logos/Verbum resources.  Just my impressions.

Posts 2885
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2015 10:44 AM

Doug Lumpkin:
When do you decide it is time to just hang it up? The extra features and indexes and what have you rarely get use.  Do I keep investing in this program because that is where all of my money is tied up?

Doug, you aren't alone.

I strongly regret spending much of the money I've invested in Logos. If I could get it back and walk away, I would. But I can't (like the misled feeling you noted, no one told me the academic discount would prevent the re-sale of my resources). I foolishly bought large base packages early, before I knew how many of those resources would be useless to me. Now that I've 'outgrown' my academic discount, I have a bunch of stuff I can't use, bundled in various ways that I don't recall or understand so couldn't sell them even if I could get permission, attached to a package for which I no longer get academic discounts. That's not whining, it is reality as I perceive it.

Over time, I learned enough that I don't keep throwing money at Bellingham thinking that's the solution to my problems. I purchase one to three resources a year, carefully chosen, that I have already evaluated so I know I'll use. I avoid any upgrades at all, and only crossgrade when essential. (FL is careful to structure the software to become obsolete after just a few years, so hanging on to a particular version is really no longer feasable...so if you decline to crossgrade, stop buying resources altogether as you'll soon no longer be able to use the software).

Now for the good part: Logos is still a very good Bible software program, despite all the unnecessy bells and whistles that have been added. It will still do everything you wanted when you bought it (though some of it has become morbidly complex for the non-academic). If you have a use for those features, and a good basic set of resources, I would recommend you not 'hang it up' yet; rather, carefully invest in a few new resources and continue to use the package for the purposes you originally wanted it. Learn how to do the basic things you want to do and don't be frustrated by all the 'extra features' that one needs a PhD to know how to use. (Wait...I have a PhD, and I can't use many of them...ignore the analogy!)

One other bit of advice (and this one will ruffle some feathers): STAY AWAY FROM THESE FORUMS!

The forums are like going to the mall: you go there and suddenly need stuff you didn't even know existed. The one exception is when you have a specific question. Post a question and come back and read the replies. But **do not** browse all the threads about new packages, etc. There are some outstanding folks on the forums who add valuable and essential input to my use of the software, but there are also those who are apparently addicted to buying stuff (digital hoarders?) and buy anything that goes on sale. They'll do their best to convince you that you simply can't survive another day in the jungle without that latest tome on Sanskrit or Second Temple dental care, and those folks can be very convincing. Avoid them like you would a Second Temple dentist. You don't need that stuff.

In summary, my advice is *no*, don't keep "investing", but rather keep using the program in as responsible way (financially) as you can. As the company moves more and more to a cloud-based system, they may make your decision for you. Avoid jumping into a new paradigm if it costs anything (significant...which is your judgment) to do so. If they cut you out, be cut out. But don't give up what you have and can maintain at minimal cost for as long as you can keep it. Be selective. Pay $50 for a single commentary you will use, but don't pay $100 for the complete set when you only want one volume. Turn off the sales and marketing emails. You aren't missing anything (other than more opportunities to send money to Bellingham). And stay away from addictive personalities, especially if you are one of them.

I hope this all makes sense and you find it helpful.

(NB: This is a personal message for Doug (albeit in a public forum, only because I don't know how to send them privately) who asked essentially a personal question, and I won't be reading replies so don't expect me to follow up.)

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 5262
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2015 11:29 AM

Doug Lumpkin:

When do you decide it is time to just hang it up? The extra features and indexes and what have you rarely get use.  Do I keep investing in this program because that is where all of my money is tied up?

Ugghhhh...

Thoughts?

I use 3 different programs.... Accordance, Olivetree Bible, Verbum (Logos)....  I listed them in that order because that is how I came to them. I have been an Accordance user since it started, OT was my PalmOS Bible for years, and in 2005 I joined Logos when mac plans came up. Like stated above I too will sometimes go where it is the cheapest of the three. At other times I much prefer to have it in a certain one. All three programs have strong points the others can not match. All offer resources found no where else in Bible software. As a rule If i think I will want to quote something often i try for Accordance or Verbum because they have the greatest ease doing that. If dependability on mobile platform is of chief importance i go ACC or OT.... If cross referencing other works with ease is most important I go Verbum (NOTE tagging is not always perfect and I get very frustrated at times with the tagging. For example even though I own WBC in Logos I have been prevented from going to the source because I own second edition of the Psalms volume and it is first edition quoted. Getting the annoying you do not own this work. Which is true but still annoying.)

You have 3 choices in my mind... First, stay in Logos fully, this has it's advantages but it also leads to your frustration.  Second, sell Logos and go elsewhere, this is not my advise because Logos is a good program and offers the broadest selection of resources. Third, keep Logos, but have a second Bible software. this is my choice and works best for me... It is no hardship on me to use multiple programs. It gives me the freedom to get resources that will be most useful to me in various ways.

-Dan

Posts 80
EX | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2015 11:38 AM

Doc B:

Doug Lumpkin:
When do you decide it is time to just hang it up? The extra features and indexes and what have you rarely get use.  Do I keep investing in this program because that is where all of my money is tied up?

Doug, you aren't alone.

I strongly regret spending much of the money I've invested in Logos. If I could get it back and walk away, I would. But I can't (like the misled feeling you noted, no one told me the academic discount would prevent the re-sale of my resources). I foolishly bought large base packages early, before I knew how many of those resources would be useless to me. Now that I've 'outgrown' my academic discount, I have a bunch of stuff I can't use, bundled in various ways that I don't recall or understand so couldn't sell them even if I could get permission, attached to a package for which I no longer get academic discounts. That's not whining, it is reality as I perceive it.

Over time, I learned enough that I don't keep throwing money at Bellingham thinking that's the solution to my problems. I purchase one to three resources a year, carefully chosen, that I have already evaluated so I know I'll use. I avoid any upgrades at all, and only crossgrade when essential. (FL is careful to structure the software to become obsolete after just a few years, so hanging on to a particular version is really no longer feasable...so if you decline to crossgrade, stop buying resources altogether as you'll soon no longer be able to use the software).

Now for the good part: Logos is still a very good Bible software program, despite all the unnecessy bells and whistles that have been added. It will still do everything you wanted when you bought it (though some of it has become morbidly complex for the non-academic). If you have a use for those features, and a good basic set of resources, I would recommend you not 'hang it up' yet; rather, carefully invest in a few new resources and continue to use the package for the purposes you originally wanted it. Learn how to do the basic things you want to do and don't be frustrated by all the 'extra features' that one needs a PhD to know how to use. (Wait...I have a PhD, and I can't use many of them...ignore the analogy!)

One other bit of advice (and this one will ruffle some feathers): STAY AWAY FROM THESE FORUMS!

The forums are like going to the mall: you go there and suddenly need stuff you didn't even know existed. The one exception is when you have a specific question. Post a question and come back and read the replies. But **do not** browse all the threads about new packages, etc. There are some outstanding folks on the forums who add valuable and essential input to my use of the software, but there are also those who are apparently addicted to buying stuff (digital hoarders?) and buy anything that goes on sale. They'll do their best to convince you that you simply can't survive another day in the jungle without that latest tome on Sanskrit or Second Temple dental care, and those folks can be very convincing. Avoid them like you would a Second Temple dentist. You don't need that stuff.

In summary, my advice is *no*, don't keep "investing", but rather keep using the program in as responsible way (financially) as you can. As the company moves more and more to a cloud-based system, they may make your decision for you. Avoid jumping into a new paradigm if it costs anything (significant...which is your judgment) to do so. If they cut you out, be cut out. But don't give up what you have and can maintain at minimal cost for as long as you can keep it. Be selective. Pay $50 for a single commentary you will use, but don't pay $100 for the complete set when you only want one volume. Turn off the sales and marketing emails. You aren't missing anything (other than more opportunities to send money to Bellingham). And stay away from addictive personalities, especially if you are one of them.

I hope this all makes sense and you find it helpful.

(NB: This is a personal message for Doug (albeit in a public forum, only because I don't know how to send them privately) who asked essentially a personal question, and I won't be reading replies so don't expect me to follow up.)

Doc, thanks for sharing. Are you a pastor? Lay leader? Scholar? That info might be helpful to know.

PCA Church
L4 Platinum, L5 Reformed Platinum, L6 Reformed Diamond, Reformed Studies XL, Platinum, Logos Now

Posts 80
EX | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2015 11:38 AM

delete

PCA Church
L4 Platinum, L5 Reformed Platinum, L6 Reformed Diamond, Reformed Studies XL, Platinum, Logos Now

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2015 1:05 PM

Doc B:
One other bit of advice (and this one will ruffle some feathers): STAY AWAY FROM THESE FORUMS!

Yeah, you may run into a bunch of characters like Super.tramp and Doc B.  Cool

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 6732
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 30 2015 2:33 PM

Super.Tramp:

Doc B:
One other bit of advice (and this one will ruffle some feathers): STAY AWAY FROM THESE FORUMS!

Yeah, you may run into a bunch of characters like Super.tramp and Doc B.  Cool

Or the one character they simply call DAL 

LOL

PS.  What can I say the forum is composed of human beings, that's all  :P

Page 1 of 2 (32 items) 1 2 Next > | RSS