Where is Jerome coming from?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2016 12:21 PM

George Somsel:
To ask that Mary intercede for them as though she had some authority (Queen of Heaven) is nearly blasphemous.

You are misinterpreting figurative language. To quote the CCC:  "And so the Church venerates in Mary the purest realization of faith."
Catholic Church, Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2nd Ed. (Washington, DC: United States Catholic Conference, 2000), 40.

I make the same plea as I would for any tradition: don't make statements about others' theology unless you are certain that you know what their position is. You can appropriately say "I have read books by and for Catholic in which they appear to attribute some special authority to Mary" or "I have known Catholics that appear to be more devoted to Mary than Jesus". If I were to say that many Protestants place Marian idols outside their sanctuary or church at winter solstice, most people on the forums would get the joke. "Everyone" knows creches aren't idols and that it is not the solstice that is commemorated. Your interpretation is just as incorrect. The difference is that fewer people on the forums know enough to recognize it as such.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2016 12:31 PM

MJ. Smith:

George Somsel:
To ask that Mary intercede for them as though she had some authority (Queen of Heaven) is nearly blasphemous.

You are misinterpreting figurative language. To quote the CCC:  "And so the Church venerates in Mary the purest realization of faith."
Catholic Church, Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2nd Ed. (Washington, DC: United States Catholic Conference, 2000), 40.

I make the same plea as I would for any tradition: don't make statements about others' theology unless you are certain that you know what their position is. You can appropriately say "I have read books by and for Catholic in which they appear to attribute some special authority to Mary" or "I have known Catholics that appear to be more devoted to Mary than Jesus". If I were to say that many Protestants place Marian idols outside their sanctuary or church at winter solstice, most people on the forums would get the joke. "Everyone" knows creches aren't idols and that it is not the solstice that is commemorated. Your interpretation is just as incorrect. The difference is that fewer people on the forums know enough to recognize it as such.

mea culpa !

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 23
phil stilliard | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2016 2:53 PM

When "the saints" are mentioned in the New testament, it usually refers only to the living.  To judge who is to be a Saint means to search their hearts and thoughts, which can only be God.

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2016 3:09 PM

All those united to God in faith are saints... even OT charters like David and Daniel... When we talk about saints we generally mean those who have been acknowledged as examples of faith worthy of veneration and sought as an example.

-Dan

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2016 3:20 PM

Phil, the forum guidelines prohibit the discussion of theology which may be difficult to tell from the preceding discussion. But when we want to push against the boundary most of us are very careful to state objective facts about the theology of a group or carefully qualify it as "my belief". So in the future, especially outside discussions like this which were very carefully skirting a very thin line, you'll want to avoid statements of a theological position as "truth". ... Otherwise you might get me observing that your first sentence is interesting considering how few dead Christians there were to be mentioned. Wink

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Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 10 2016 5:07 PM

phil stilliard:

There are a large number of incompatible backgrounds here, Baptist, Catholic, Evangelical, etc, and many of these authors do not agree with each other.  You are selling Jerome's Commentary on Daniel for $10, where is he coming from, what are his beliefs?  He was born at a time of great persecution, 347 A.D. and many were killed for their beliefs.  Am I right in assuming he was Catholic?

With great trepidation I enter this - hoping to stay on topic...

Jerome was a great man of learning and letters of his age. In the sense that "Catholic" has the root meaning "according to the whole" he was a great servant of it, transporting the learning of east and west to each other in person, in translations, and his own writings. For better or worse, to some extent his debate with Augustine about Pauline interpretation is not entirely unlike the discussion today about the "New" perspective of Paul... Agree or disagree with him, you will learn from him and grow in the process.

As far as the conventional understandings of labels like "Baptist, Catholic, Evangelical", his work is from an era where these understandings of today really have little if any meaning. He was a man of the Church - the faithful secretary of the Bishop of Rome - and also a man of great learning who was by no means unwilling to learn from those who were in tension with the Church of Rome - eg. the Palestinian Jews from whom he learned Hebrew.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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David Roberts | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 12 2016 6:46 AM

Do we still have Jerome's Latin translation of the Bible extant?

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 12 2016 7:04 AM

David Roberts:

Do we still have Jerome's Latin translation of the Bible extant?

logosres:vulgataclem;art=title 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 156
David Roberts | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 12 2016 7:14 PM

George Somsel:
logosres:vulgataclem;art=title 


It's just there's been some editing going over over the centuries,
I was wondering what the earliest copy is, that most reflects what Jerome himself intended the text to be,
not how later editors adapted it to become.

While looking at your Wiki link I spotted this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Fuldensis

Which curiously has the Diatessaron in Latin, I have some good reading ahead of me. :)

https://books.google.pl/books?id=FKiuAg2u5-0C
https://archive.org/details/codexfuldensisn00rankgoog

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 12 2016 8:47 PM

The Latin Manuscripts of the New Testament are of two main families. The oldest complete New Testament in Old Latin (the version that predates Jeremone's Vulgate) is known as Codex Ardmachanus and comes from ca 850. Codex Speculum contains all of the New Testament except 3 John, Philemon, and Hebrews (housed: Saint Cross monastery (Sessorianus) in Rome). However, the oldest partial is of the Gospels and comes from 350 (Codex Vercellensis, housed: Vercelli City Library). This chart lists out all the known Old Latin manuscripts and where they are housed. I found nothing with more than pieces of the Old Testament. Mostly Genesis with the oldest (Codex Bobiensis) being 550 (housed: National Library of Naples).

The oldest known copy of Jermone's Vulgate to have the complete New Testament dates to 541 (housed: Hochschul- und Landesbibliothek Fulda). The oldest partial NT is of the Gospels and comes from 450 (housed: Bibliothèque nationale de France). This chart shows the known Vulgate manuscripts and where they are housed. Codex Theodulphianus is the oldest with the Old Testament and it comes from the 8th or 9th century (the chart lists it as tenth but the page itself says 8th or 9th. It is also housed in the Bibliothèque nationale de France).

from http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/4725/what-are-the-earliest-dated-extant-latin-manuscripts-of-the-bible

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 156
David Roberts | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2016 12:21 AM

MJ. Smith:

The Latin Manuscripts of the New Testament are of two main families. The oldest complete New Testament in Old Latin (the version that predates Jeremone's Vulgate) is known as Codex Ardmachanus and comes from ca 850. Codex Speculum contains all of the New Testament except 3 John, Philemon, and Hebrews (housed: Saint Cross monastery (Sessorianus) in Rome). However, the oldest partial is of the Gospels and comes from 350 (Codex Vercellensis, housed: Vercelli City Library). This chart lists out all the known Old Latin manuscripts and where they are housed. I found nothing with more than pieces of the Old Testament. Mostly Genesis with the oldest (Codex Bobiensis) being 550 (housed: National Library of Naples).

The oldest known copy of Jermone's Vulgate to have the complete New Testament dates to 541 (housed: Hochschul- und Landesbibliothek Fulda). The oldest partial NT is of the Gospels and comes from 450 (housed: Bibliothèque nationale de France). This chart shows the known Vulgate manuscripts and where they are housed. Codex Theodulphianus is the oldest with the Old Testament and it comes from the 8th or 9th century (the chart lists it as tenth but the page itself says 8th or 9th. It is also housed in the Bibliothèque nationale de France).

from http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/4725/what-are-the-earliest-dated-extant-latin-manuscripts-of-the-bible



Thanks for the very helpful reply.
May I ask has anyone transcribed any of the early witnesses to Jerome's Vulgate?
My eyes really struggle to read some of the old handwriting, as beautiful as the hand may be.
I'd love to compare early witnesses to Jerome's to the standard Clementine edition.
Don't worry, I'm not saying they're completely different, just wanting to see where changes were made.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2016 1:35 AM

Sorry,  I know of an Academic Institute for the Old Latin - prior to Jerome - but I don't know an equivalent for the Vulgate.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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