Should I wait ????

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Posts 184
Al Het | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2016 12:09 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
I tried to answer this question a few years ago right after we launched Logos 5. The numbers and content are outdated, but the principles still apply.

Phil, your answer presupposes that the buyer wants to continue to upgrade features into the future.  If what you primarily want is to use and search the books you have, the advantage of paying for new crossgrades/upgrades is minimized.  Many of us bought Logos because we were told that you (we) wouldn't need to keep buying new versions of the software, that you (we) were buying books, not software.  While Logos has certainly kept to this in a literal sense, as I have noted above, for some of us, it hasn't quite worked out that way.  For people who are into the new features and capabilities you guys keep providing, who have the money, and are willing to spend it on Logos, this makes sense.  However, for those who want first and foremost to be able to search lexicons and dictionaries, buying all the new upgrades/crossgrades with each version might not make sense.

Having said that, I didn't buy the upgrade for Libronix, I just downloaded the free engine, and at some level I regret that.  There are things that were not provided in the free engine that I wanted and would use.  Likewise, if I would have known about the minimal crossgrade for version 5 when it was available, I would definitely have bought that.  It had features I would definitely have wanted, would have used.  However, I didn't know about such things as crossgrades until version 6 had already came out, and then version 5 crossgrades were no longer available for purchase.  And the version 6 crossgrades are many times more expensive.

For what it's worth.  By the way, I really appreciate your time perusing these forums, and jumping in when appropriate. 

Posts 184
Al Het | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2016 12:11 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
That's before dynamic pricing. Most people got Feature Crossgrade, which gave you all the new features, data, interactives, and media, for a little over $200.

As I've explained above, that wouldn't be true for me.

Posts 184
Al Het | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2016 12:18 PM

mab:
Waiting is doing nothing other than feeding fear and doubt.

That is an absolutely ridiculous statement.  How is waiting to buy a new version of Logos Bible software "feeding fear and doubt?"  Perhaps it is just being prudent. 

mab:
Kind of like Matthew 25:25

All you have demonstrated is that you know nothing about what that passage is talking about.  You're telling the OP that buying Logos is a command from God for him, and that waiting to buy a new version is the same as not using the talents that God has entrusted him with?

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2016 2:03 PM

Al Het:

Graham Criddle:
And are you comparing against Libronix or from Logos 4 onward?

Yep, I'm comparing against Libronix.  That was the last Logos software I used.

Thank you

That helps me understand some of the points you were making. I never really used Libronix significantly (maybe a couple of months before Logos 4 came out) so don't understand some of the capabilities it provided and how it maps / doesn't map to Logos 4 onwards.

I would have been surprised if you had seen capabilities in Logos 4 before removing in 5 or 6.

Al Het:
Most of the people who hang out on these forums are really into Logos, into advanced software tools and searches, having huge Logos libraries, eagerly awaiting new versions, etc

I think that's a valid comment regarding some of the "regulars" but there are also many who are trying to find out how to get answers to specific questions.

Al Het:
Many have the software to study Scripture, with specific resources, for specific purposes.

But I don't actually see these two things as incompatible. I have the software for the same reason and for specific purposes. I am less focused on "specific resources" finding value in having access to a range of resources.

Al Het:
Having further, greater, advanced features might be well and good, but when things are changed such that I can't do the same things I could with the older version, and those things are the reason I bought the software, it becomes a step backward for me.

That makes absolute sense to me

Al Het:
Sure.  Keylinks.  The ability to set the program up so that when I am in a Greek text, all I have to do is double click a word, and I automatically get all the resources I want, and ONLY the resources I want, to open in new windows, to the definition of that word I clicked on.  And when I'm in a Hebrew text, again to be able to double click on a word and all the specific resources I want (and only those resources) open in new windows.  And, when I'm in an English text, being able to double click on a word... You get the idea

I thought it might be helpful responding to this and showing how to do something "similar" in Logos 6. Apologies if you are already aware of this.

In Logos 6 if you double-click on a word in a Greek text then it will open to your highest prioritised lexicon which has an entry for that word.

If, instead, you right-click on the word you can see a list of the five highest prioritised lexicons and choose the one you want to open.

Using the "parallel resources" capability you can then move from one to another. Selecting the top option opened the Lexham Theological Workbook. Clicking the right-arrow key then opened the TDNT instead

The same principles work for Hebrew and English as well.

I don't remember enough of how Libronix worked to know how similar this was but it seems to work quite well. And this functionality should be available with the core engine.

Al Het:
Another example would be the word-for-word association done with the NASB.  I could hover over any English word and get the Greek word.  I could also right-click on any word and click on "go to associated resource" (or something like that) and the Greek or Hebrew text would open up, with that word highlighted.

The first part is possible - hovering over the word and getting a popup. The Information Pane also provides useful, relevant information

I don't know of any generic way to exactly achieve the second part of what you describe. You can right-click on a verse and choose which of your top five relevant prioritised Bibles to open - this might give you the ability to open particular texts (but it isn't specific to the "source text") and the word wouldn't end up highlighted in the new text

If you do have both texts open and highlight the word in one, you will get the word highlighted in the other.

I'm aware this doesn't directly address the question of upgrade or not / just trying to clarify what is / isn't possible from Logos 4 onwards.

Posts 884
Eric Weiss | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2016 6:48 PM

If you pay the $99/year or so ($8 or $9 monthly, I think) for Logos Now, you will be getting upgrades to Logos 6 continuously and not on the normal 6-week (I think?) schedule, so that when 7 is released you will already have most or all of it, as well as parts of Logos 8. If you decide to stop subscribing to Logos Now, the cost of Logos 7 might be dynamically priced based on what you already have, or something like that. If you are subscribed to Logos Now when Logos 7 comes out, there may be no cost for getting Logos 7 when it comes out, except for upgrading from, e.g., Diamond to Platinum.

A nice feature of Logos Now is that every month you get a temporary license for some resources, which you can then buy at a discount if you want them after the month is over.

Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2016 7:35 PM

Eric Weiss:

If you pay the $99/year or so ($8 or $9 monthly, I think) for Logos Now, you will be getting upgrades to Logos 6 continuously and not on the normal 6-week (I think?) schedule, so that when 7 is released you will already have most or all of it, as well as parts of Logos 8. If you decide to stop subscribing to Logos Now, the cost of Logos 7 might be dynamically priced based on what you already have, or something like that. If you are subscribed to Logos Now when Logos 7 comes out, there may be no cost for getting Logos 7 when it comes out, except for upgrading from, e.g., Diamond to Platinum.

A nice feature of Logos Now is that every month you get a temporary license for some resources, which you can then buy at a discount if you want them after the month is over.

This is exactly what I was going to recommend. Upgrade to 6 and get the features and then with Logos Now you basically are getting Logos 7 features as they are released. We don't know how Logos will handle the transition for people who have subscribed, but at the very least, if you keep subscribing you will continue getting the features...or there may be some sort of dynamic pricing benefit if you've been a subscriber. Regardless, you can't really use the experience people have had upgrading from 4 to 5 or 5 to 6, because Logos Now changes all of that. 

From personal experience, Logos 6 legitimately has benefits over Logos 5. If these features seem like they'd benefit you too (they likely will) then I would recommend upgrading now so that you can actually start using them. 

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 4849
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2016 11:00 AM

Joe, can you ballpark how much money would you be willing to spend in order to have Logos now instead of later?

“I want you to know how the people should behave in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” - 1 Timothy 3:15 (EOB:NT).

Posts 184
Al Het | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2016 11:07 AM

Thanks for the reply, Graham.  I didn't mean to imply that one type of use or intention is in any way more important, or more significant than another, or that good Bible software might not be able to meet the needs of many different uses well.  I just wanted the OP to understand that the people who had and would likely reply on this forum tend to appreciate the full breadth of features Logos has, look forward to additional features, and seem to be willing to pay consistently for those additional features.  This is great for those with questions (like me), as the people who frequent this forum have a great handle on a wide variety of things Logos does.  However, the OP may or may not have been coming from a similar place of appreciating a great variety of features, and continue to desire more.  I think that plays into his question about buying now or later.

I absolutely appreciate your input into how to use version 6 to do the types of things I primarily use Logos for.  I do essentially just what you suggested.  However, in your input here, I learned something that will be useful.  I hadn't been using the "parallel resources" feature.  That looks to be very useful for moving back and forth between resources, something that has been annoying for me.  An interesting observation on that feature:  My "first" prioritized Greek resource is Lowe and Nida.  When I right-click a word, open L&N, and then click on the parallel resources button, I get "No Parallel Resources."  However, if I open up another in my list of prioritized Greek tools, the parallel button shows all my resources, including L&N.  Not a big deal, just an interesting observation.

Graham Criddle:
The first part is possible - hovering over the word and getting a popup. The Information Pane also provides useful, relevant information

Interestingly, in your example that you posted, hovering over a word in an English Bible gives you the Greek word, grammatical information for the word, and the Strongs number.  When I hover over an English word, I get just the Strong's number.  Likely the result of me just having the base engine.  I also get a lot less information on the information window than others here do.  When I hover over a word in a Greek Bible, I get the lemma, grammatical information for the word, and a brief definition.  In my Hebrew Bibles, I get the Hebrew lemma and the grammatical information, with no definition. 

Graham Criddle:

I don't know of any generic way to exactly achieve the second part of what you describe. You can right-click on a verse and choose which of your top five relevant prioritised Bibles to open - this might give you the ability to open particular texts (but it isn't specific to the "source text") and the word wouldn't end up highlighted in the new text

If you do have both texts open and highlight the word in one, you will get the word highlighted in the other.

This ability in Libronix with the NASB to "Navigate to associated word" was a nice feature, mainly because I use the NAS as my preferred Bible.  So, if I was just looking up a verse or passage, was reading a verse in the NAS, and I got curious about the verse in Greek, I could just right click, and go right to the verse, and the word.  It was convenient enough that I would look up the Greek in situations that I might not normally take the time to.  Also, when exegeting a large passage, and working back and forth through resources, you could instantly find a particular Greek word without working through the whole passage.  Right click, click the "Navigate to Associated Word" button, and that word would be highlighted in the Greek text.

Here, it sounds like you are saying that you can do this in your version of Logos, if you have both resources open.  When I have both the Greek and English Bibles open, neither clicking on, or highlighting a word in one highlights the word in the other.  I imagine that could be useful, but it doesn't work with mine.

I appreciate you taking the time to help, even on a thread where this isn't the focus. 

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Andrew Batishko (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2016 11:15 AM

Al Het:

I hadn't been using the "parallel resources" feature.  That looks to be very useful for moving back and forth between resources, something that has been annoying for me.  An interesting observation on that feature:  My "first" prioritized Greek resource is Lowe and Nida.  When I right-click a word, open L&N, and then click on the parallel resources button, I get "No Parallel Resources."  However, if I open up another in my list of prioritized Greek tools, the parallel button shows all my resources, including L&N.  Not a big deal, just an interesting observation.

This sounds a lot like a bug that was just fixed in a recent beta version, so this will hopefully be fixed when the next stable release ships.

Posts 932
Justin Gatlin | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2016 12:01 PM

Al Het:

I absolutely appreciate your input into how to use version 6 to do the types of things I primarily use Logos for.  I do essentially just what you suggested.  However, in your input here, I learned something that will be useful.  I hadn't been using the "parallel resources" feature.  That looks to be very useful for moving back and forth between resources, something that has been annoying for me.  An interesting observation on that feature:  My "first" prioritized Greek resource is Lowe and Nida.  When I right-click a word, open L&N, and then click on the parallel resources button, I get "No Parallel Resources."  However, if I open up another in my list of prioritized Greek tools, the parallel button shows all my resources, including L&N.  Not a big deal, just an interesting observation.

Now that you know a little more about the software, you may want to click on your number of posts and read your old threads. The things Graham is telling you were actually explained in another couple of threads you posted about a year ago (one even by him), but it may make more sense now.

I would look not at Logos Now, but at Logos Cloud. Features like Clause search (subject:Jesus verb-sense:to-heal to find everywhere Jesus healed, even if it says "He made whole" or something else. You could never do that with Libronix or paper tools) alone are worth the upgrade. There is a free month and there is no need to enter your credit card for auto renewal. Why not get the $20/month subscription, try it and see if it solves your workflow? If you do the 30 day challenge, you will learn about the power of the new software and probably be sold. Then it will automatically upgrade to L7. It is a rental, not ownership model, so you will get the value of Gold at a much lower cost, and can cancel it if/when you don't need it. You will get access to the inline reverse interlinear, which is much better than "Navigate to Associated Word." You will also get Inline Search (which should definitely be part of the core engine; it is not a dataset, so I do find the fact you need a certain level base package to be disingenous to their "buy only books" promise), where you can right click on a word, click on the Lemma and then click "Search in this resource." 

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2016 12:35 PM

Al Het:
This ability in Libronix with the NASB to "Navigate to associated word" was a nice feature, mainly because I use the NAS as my preferred Bible.  So, if I was just looking up a verse or passage, was reading a verse in the NAS, and I got curious about the verse in Greek, I could just right click, and go right to the verse, and the word.  It was convenient enough that I would look up the Greek in situations that I might not normally take the time to.  Also, when exegeting a large passage, and working back and forth through resources, you could instantly find a particular Greek word without working through the whole passage.  Right click, click the "Navigate to Associated Word" button, and that word would be highlighted in the Greek text.

The Libronix "Associated Word" feature is not supported in Logos 6. Since Logos 4, reverse interlinears have supplanted that feature and added many more capabilities:

  • coverage of the OT (and deuterocanon), not just NT
  • reverse interlinear ribbon (or inline display) displays much more information at a glance
  • translation graph in Bible Word Study
  • "Corresponding selection" visual filter highlights the corresponding text in your preferred Greek NT as you select text (not just hard-coded to the NA26, as Associated Word was) 
  • "Corresponding words" visual filter can automatically highlight the same word, or all occurrences of the same lemma, etc.
  • show original language data sets (Biblical People, Reported Speech, Propositional Outlines, and many more) in your English translation
  • perform Greek (and Hebrew) morph searches in your English Bible

The reverse interlinears are only available in a base package or crossgrade, but may be well worth it if you want the ability to link English and Greek (or Hebrew).

Posts 184
Al Het | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2016 10:07 AM

Justin,

Justin Gatlin:
Now that you know a little more about the software, you may want to click on your number of posts and read your old threads. The things Graham is telling you were actually explained in another couple of threads you posted about a year ago (one even by him), but it may make more sense now.

For sure.  My regular routine incorporates most of what Graham has suggested here, precisely because of the advice I got here long ago, as well as several other, newer features of Logos that I've discovered and found uses for along the way.  I seem to have missed this use of the parallel resources, though.

To be clear, I wasn't asking for help or advice in this thread.  I was jut trying to make the point that Logos has changed over time, with features that come and go.  I've fully adapted to this phase of Logos software, and use it between 10 and 20 hours a week (sermon, Bible Study, article prep).  To do what I used to do with Libronix takes more mouse clicks, and some work-arounds, but you adapt.  There are also many parts of 4, 5, and 6 that I think are great, and very useful.

My post was intended to make the point that Logos programs change over time, and features come and features to.  Graham was just being kind to try to help, to make sure I wasn't missing anything that IS available. 

Justin Gatlin:
I would look not at Logos Now, but at Logos Cloud.

I'm not sure if you meant to direct this to me or the OP.  I'm not particularly looking to upgrade my search ability, though it is always nice to have more options...

Thanks for the input.

Posts 932
Justin Gatlin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2016 10:12 AM

Al Het:

Justin Gatlin:
I would look not at Logos Now, but at Logos Cloud.

I'm not sure if you meant to direct this to me or the OP.  I'm not particularly looking to upgrade my search ability, though it is always nice to have more options...

Both, really. I saw some people recommend Logos Now, which I think is silly in either use case. Logos Cloud provides the benefits of a base package at a fraction of the cost (my disclaimer is that I don't subscribe because I am too heavily invested in the ownership model; until they add dynamic pricing, it doesn't make sense for me). 

And sorry for the mix-up. Reading through carelessly, I merged some of your points with other's in my mind and made a kind of muddled response. Glad to hear that L6 is working for you.

Posts 184
Al Het | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2016 10:22 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
The Libronix "Associated Word" feature is not supported in Logos 6. Since Logos 4, reverse interlinears have supplanted that feature and added many more capabilities:

Yeah, that was EXACTLY my point to the OP. 

With new versions, things like this ("Associated Word" feature) go away.  Often that is because Logos is adding new features which can/will serve the same purpose.  However, your example here points out a great example of where the new feature (reverse interlinears) is only available in base packages or crossgrades that you have to buy.  So, I WAS able to download the new base engine and have access to my full library.  However, if I wanted to use the same features or do this similar thing that I had for years, I would have to spend hundreds more on a crossgrade or base package. 

Hence my advice to the OP to take this into account when deciding to buy now or wait for version 7.

Okay everyone, thanks for all the replies, but the discussion with me has now inadvertently, completely hijacked this thread.  If there is any more discussion, I'd like it to center around the OP's original question about buying now or waiting for version 7.

Posts 6
Joe Colby | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2016 11:27 AM

Thanks everyone for the information and help, but now another question has come up from Justin's comment. Do I even need to look at a Logos base package or should I just subscribe to Logos Cloud? It sounds like the monthly fee is reasonable and if I get all the features of Logos without having to purchase a base package it might be a great way to try it out. Am I missing something ?

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2016 11:53 AM

Joe Colby:
Do I even need to look at a Logos base package or should I just subscribe to Logos Cloud? It

You would definitely want to use the free month trial before investing in Logos Cloud. When I tried that, I felt great dissatisfaction with the included resources. However, I should mention that I own over 15k resources, so YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary). I also tried Cloud shortly after its initial release.

But you would definitely want to try it free for a month.

Posts 689
James McAdams | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2016 12:20 PM

I think if you're on the fence at all, there's no downside to trialling it for a month.

It helped me to find out what resource-types I most benefitted from or felt were missing and make a more informed decision about upgrading, but you might just feel perfectly served by it as is. Give it a go!

Posts 60
Simon Smailus | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2016 3:06 PM

As someone mentioned, "If you can afford it".

In my opinion Logos and saving money do not go together. You do have to look at the long haul. You can build up a terrific library with Logos that'll last you years. You do however, need to understand that this will cost you. Just the crossgrades between versions are $200 plus. Logos also likes to place things in packages or bundles, so the resource you need may not be available as a single purchase. In the end Logos is a business and are after your money so if you're on v5 now is a good time to way up the options. There is good software available at a fraction of the cost. I think it's also worth looking at what you'll actually use as opposed to what you'll actually get.

Let me be clear, nothing else comes close to the resources Logos can offer, but this comes at a perpetual price. If that is no object go for it!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2016 4:06 PM

While it is easy to spend lots of money and build a large library, to do so is a matter of choice. One can use Logos with a minimal investment knowing that one can expand should the need arise. If the need does not arise, no need to expand.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 60
Simon Smailus | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2016 12:44 AM

That's not entirely true. It all depends on what you need for your context. Logos likes to bundle things. So for example if you decide you want the Greek Alphabet tutor which costs about $4 you'll find it only in a bundle. This means it'll cost a couple of hundred dollars to purchase. If you're wanting to build your own collection Logos is a very expensive way of doing it.

Logos has a tremendous amount to offer, but it is going to take a fair amount of money to get what you want. You may find a base package that includes all you want, but those are not generally the lower priced ones.

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