Should I wait ????

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2016 1:02 AM

Simon smailus:
So for example if you decide you want the Greek Alphabet tutor which costs about $4 you'll find it only in a bundle.

I can also easily find free ones one the web some of which I personally might prefer to Logos' .... I know that I can get people happily set up for < $100 and not expect them to add much over time ... which is why Logos "complains" that the percentage of its users who "pull their weigh" in keeping the company profitable is small.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Simon Smailus | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2016 1:37 AM

MJ. Smith:
I can also easily find free ones one the web some of which I personally might prefer to Logos'

But now you're changing the goal posts. This was using Logos. I mentioned in my earlier post that there's software available at a fraction of the cost. The point here is building your library with Logos, and it appears by using other stuff you're hinting that Logos is costly too or else you'd have bought that in Logos.

If we're broadening the criteria, I should add the cost alone is not my criteria of evaluation (but it is an important one). A large weighting has to be on the usability of the software.

I use three software programmes at the moment, Logos, Accordance and Olivetree. Olivetree is a throwback from my early ios days and is not at this time in the league of Logos or Accordance, but still does admirably in terms of Bible Study. Accordance's base packages are cheaper than Logos and buying specific items is possible, which makes it my preference. My difficulty is always wanting stuff in one package for ease of use. Logos's bloat often works against itself in that searches bring up too much stuff and you don't seem to be able to "turn-off" resources (I may be wrong here as I don't know Logos as well as I should). This means study takes longer. Plus on a mac Logos is terrible. Logos's "Signing In", "Preparing Library" and "Synchronizing" take longer than opening Accordance doing a textual search and closing it again. I also find the Logos' iOS app to be next to useless. I'm a church minister and in meetings use airplane mode to stop unwanted interruptions. Logos iOS without the internet is nothing but a reader. None of the searches work and so for small group teaching is unusable. These are important consideration for me.

I've been with Logos since the Libronix days and before that used Quickverse. Over the years my needs changed. Now as a Pastor I need more heavy duty tools, but this is proving expensive when looking at Logos. Another plus for Accordance is that it doesn't lock away functionality depending on how much you've spent. Diagramming for instance is available to all as all of the applications functions are unlocked. Another difficulty is vendor lock-in and so switching from Logos elsewhere leaves many resources stuck in Logos or you end up duplicating. Even if you don't want to invest more in Logos at some point you need to for upgrades just to keep what you have. I do like the fact the Accordance does have a user tool to make your own resources so you could theoretically transfer your books to Accordance as personal books.

I should add that I'm looking at the original languages at the moment. I've come across Bibleworks that gives me everything needed for less than $400. This would be far more expensive in Logos, but then I'm adding yet a fourth application to my computer.

This is why I think it behoves us to think about future possible uses and the costs this would incur.

It leaves the fact that using Logos to build your library is expensive.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2016 2:10 AM

Simon smailus:
and it appears by using other stuff you're hinting that Logos is costly too or else you'd have bought that in Logos.

No, I'm hinting at the fact that learning an alphabet is not a primary function of Logos and as other options are readily available for the short period of time you would need the feature it is irrelevant to the evaluation of Logos.

Simon smailus:
It leaves the fact that using Logos to build your library is expensive.

I agree that it can be. But it depends upon how much your library is apt to grow and what type of resources will be added. Different traditions have different styles of Bible study - some based more on the text itself, prayer, a few confessional documents; others based very heavily on commentaries, atlases, original language words studies even without original language competency ... and a large number of Bible study traditions falling at different places along the continuum. The purchaser needs to look at it from the perspective of their needs not my needs or your needs.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Simon Smailus | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2016 4:29 AM

MJ. Smith:
I'm hinting at the fact that learning an alphabet is not a primary function of Logos

I'm not sure it's that easy. The primary function happens to be what you need to use it for most and this obviously changes over time. Logos would disagree with you as they have invested in m.Ed and Logos functionality to make learning Greek a primary function for those that need it. 

MJ. Smith:
The purchaser needs to look at it from the perspective of their needs not my needs or your needs.

Totally with you there. Those needs however do change. Mine have gone from being part of a church to being part of a ministry to being part of a Bible School to being the Pastor of a local church. Each of those have different needs. One package purchased 5 years ago for a specific purpose may not meet those needs today. That is why I suggest looking at the whole picture as much a possible and seeing if Logos is the right path.

In some way this is all moot if you have the finances and that leads me back round to where I entered the discussion. If you have limited resources Logos may not be the way to go.

Enjoyed your points! Many thanks!

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GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2016 5:51 AM

Simon smailus:
you don't seem to be able to "turn-off" resources (I may be wrong here as I don't know Logos as well as I should).

You can turn off resources you don't want to use in the desktop version by hiding them in L4, 5, and 6. You can read about this here

Simon smailus:
I do like the fact the Accordance does have a user tool to make your own resources so you could theoretically transfer your books to Accordance as personal books.

Logos has the Personal Book Builder as well, which allows you to create your own resources. Details here.

Returning to your original discussion with MJ, I personally don't think things like Alphabet Tutors are significant reasons for choosing software - I can learn the Greek alphabet from the first couple of pages of any Greek grammar in an hour or so: I am more concerned (as a Pastor) with language, commentary and other exegetical resources.

You also don't have to pay anything to upgrade from Logos 4 or 5 to L6. Paying ~$200 gets you all the new features, but you can upgrade with the free engine upgrade without losing access to any of your resources and as far as I can remember you gain access to the new features that aren't powered by specific datasets (being able to update resources without restarting your system, etc). 


Running Logos 6 Platinum and Logos Now on Surface Pro 4, 8 GB RAM, 256GB SSD, i5

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2016 10:15 AM

Simon smailus:
I'm a church minister and in meetings use airplane mode to stop unwanted interruptions. Logos iOS without the internet is nothing but a reader. None of the searches work and so for small group teaching is unusable. These are important consideration for me.

I have been saying this for years now.... and usually been told it is a very small number who have issue with how the mobile devices work. I have trouble believing that and feel FL is loosing customers, because if good offline support is a key issue for you and you discover that LOGOS/VERBUM mobile only function with an active connection, I am not sure you will go with it. Also ends up being a speed thing pure and simple as no matter how good a connection I have had OT or ACC  mobile functions faster than FL mobile. But apparently we are in the extreme minority. And so are on back burner of  maybe someday.

-Dan

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BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2016 1:07 PM

Joe Colby:

I want to buy LOGOS 6 but all the comments I have seen comments about LOGOS 7 coming (not sure when but it's coming). Should I just wait until version 7 or get 6 and pay for the upgrade ? 

I'll answer on a different track than perhaps you've seen. Before I go on, I'll say I empathize with all the points that've been made. I didn't initially upgrade after Libronix aka v.3.0, but eventually I had to. Though there are many things I prefer in L6, I think I still mildly prefer the day-to-day way I was able use v. 3.0--it was more efficient & lighter on the fingers & wrists (not as many keystrokes or mouse clicks) for same task). I also preferred pricing pre-V. 4.0. (I was able to add a nice collection for a max of $300 each year; today, an equivalent "nice" collection would be well over $1,000.)

I also hear & can agree with those who say go ahead....

My real input is a caveat. If you need it. The real advantage of going ahead is that you get to start using it. If you already have a solution, this one is pricy enough that I'd counsel wait--unless budget isn't an issue. I'm a part time pastor of a tiny church, & budget is a huge issue. (I have no book budget, for example, only a very limited budget for ALL my professional expenses in a year, coupled with the need to avoid spending as much of that as I can avoid.)

So if you need it, get started. If you don't, wait... 

Grace & Peace,
Bill


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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2016 1:45 PM

Dan Francis:

Simon smailus:
I'm a church minister and in meetings use airplane mode to stop unwanted interruptions. Logos iOS without the internet is nothing but a reader. None of the searches work and so for small group teaching is unusable. These are important consideration for me.

I have been saying this for years now.... and usually been told it is a very small number who have issue with how the mobile devices work. I have trouble believing that and feel FL is loosing customers, because if good offline support is a key issue for you and you discover that LOGOS/VERBUM mobile only function with an active connection, I am not sure you will go with it.

Okay, you "forced" me into it. Wink I rarely engage in speculation but my guess as to the reason for the restructuring of Faithlife is that Bob saw the need to direct more of their resources towards the mobile market. My only evidence is my personal reading of the direction of the market.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2016 2:13 PM

MJ. Smith:
Okay, you "forced" me into it. Wink I rarely engage in speculation but my guess as to the reason for the restructuring of Faithlife is that Bob saw the need to direct more of their resources towards the mobile market. My only evidence is my personal reading of the direction of the market.

Can't comment how the amount of resources being directed to it, but Kevin (a FL employee, for those who don't know) did recently indicate on a thread in the Android forums that multiple parity issues are being targeted for this year. It sure would be nice for mobile to get some more love! 

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Robert Harner | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2016 2:28 PM

Dan Francis:

I have been saying this for years now.... and usually been told it is a very small number who have issue with how the mobile devices work.

I've been using my iPad at church for at least a year and a half and do not even contemplate using the Logos app. Logos on the pc and OT on the iPad. Easy choices.

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James McAdams | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 16 2016 3:02 PM

Robert Harner:

I've been using my iPad at church for at least a year and a half and do not even contemplate using the Logos app. Logos on the pc and OT on the iPad. Easy choices.

I can definitely see why, but it's not as clear cut as it used to be. I really miss offline functionality and the fact that the main functions of Logos' guides are replicated in a single window through the resource guide. I also prefer the way that Olive Tree handles maps/images.

But I think Logos has better formatted text, more versatile interlinears, access to way more resources and more links between them - I was reading an issue of Themelios on my phone where an article cited a letter of Clement that I was able to click through to straight away. I wouldn't be able to read either resource through Olive Tree, but even if I could, citations almost never work as links except when they point to Bible verses.

Also, I get to create Bible reading plans for my personal books and Biblical text, and follow along there. And my prayer list - on desktop, I'd never use it, but having it available with my devotions is wonderful. Audio Bibles are quite handy too, at times.

Word studies are better in Logos, and provided you have signal and can afford the data usage, it's quite nice to be able to access a ton of books without having to download them all. My Olive Tree download took up 3GB because I wanted to know all my resources were available. With Logos, they are, whether I download 'em or not.

There are certainly good reasons to lean the other way, but I don't think its obvious that Olive Tree is the best mobile app anymore.

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Tony Garland | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 17 2016 2:46 PM

FWIW - I found this thread due to a recent situation I'm seeing (as of this morning at church) where, if I have no internet connection then the latest Logos under the latest iOS (on iPad Pro) is non-functional.  I can choose downloaded books from my library--but they no longer display. Attempts to navigate from a previously opened bible (while connected) to a new verse (without a connection) are completely ignored.

So, at present, I can't use Logos offline at all--not even to read the books I've purchased and downloaded to my device. (Yes, I've verified they still show as resources already on the device.)

I hadn't used Logos on iOS for quite some time without a connection--and was very surprised by this result.

Is this a new bug (one would hope)?

Yes: I've tried restarting my iPad, restarting the Logos app--to no avail.  All I need to do is reconnect to the Internet and immediately it all starts working like it should. Disconnect and its back to being essentially non-functional.

Seems to work fine without an Internet connection on my iPhone 6s.

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Robert Harner | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 17 2016 2:49 PM

James McAdams:

Robert Harner:

I've been using my iPad at church for at least a year and a half and do not even contemplate using the Logos app. Logos on the pc and OT on the iPad. Easy choices.

I can definitely see why, but it's not as clear cut as it used to be.

I have a ribbon where we are in Exodus in the SS class, A ribbon where we are in the Sunday sermon. It is easy to go to different Bible books and chapters. In between and other times when waiting I'm currently reading a book on theodicy in WS. When doing serious study it is on one of my laptops. I have 4 major packages and one minor, each having their strengths. I like choices, and find they are easy choices.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 17 2016 3:15 PM

Tony Garland:

FWIW - I found this thread due to a recent situation I'm seeing (as of this morning at church) where, if I have no internet connection then the latest Logos under the latest iOS (on iPad Pro) is non-functional.  I can choose downloaded books from my library--but they no longer display. Attempts to navigate from a previously opened bible (while connected) to a new verse (without a connection) are completely ignored.

So, at present, I can't use Logos offline at all--not even to read the books I've purchased and downloaded to my device. (Yes, I've verified they still show as resources already on the device.)

I hadn't used Logos on iOS for quite some time without a connection--and was very surprised by this result.

Is this a new bug (one would hope)?

Yes: I've tried restarting my iPad, restarting the Logos app--to no avail.  All I need to do is reconnect to the Internet and immediately it all starts working like it should. Disconnect and its back to being essentially non-functional.

Seems to work fine without an Internet connection on my iPhone 6s.

Tony

Please start a thread outlining these issues in the ipad forum where it can be addressed more readily

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Simon Smailus | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2016 9:28 AM

I think these are all good reason to contemplate before you jump. It seems quite a number of folks have various applications they use. Some are legacy so Olivetree was one of the first on iOS so is still on my system and is extremely good.

The difficulty is that you end up buying the same resources in other software increasing your outlay. Plus it's always better to have all your resources in one package. Choosing amongst the available programmes will not only be a matter of finance, but also platforms. If you rely heavily on mobile devices, say you've invested in the new iPad Pro, then you need to make sure you have good internet access to even contemplate using Logos. I've also noticed that the Windows version of Logos seems to run better than the mac version from some posts I've read. I'm finding Logos on Yosemite slower that photoshop to start up and use.

All in all its worth having a look around and a test of different software in your context before you jump.

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