Inquiry about Theological Dictionaries

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This post has 36 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 1055
Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Feb 23 2010 1:01 AM

After reading the product guide, I realized that I want to buy a theological dictionary:

Could you suggest one each for OT and NT (can be out from the list)?

Thanks!

Posts 769
Alan Charles Gielczyk | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 1:20 AM

What base package do you have?

Posts 1757
Allen Browne | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 1:25 AM

Something you might like to consider is upgrading to the Scholar's Library.

That will give you both Kittel and TWOT, and many other books as well, so it may be the most cost-effective solution long-term.

Compare the list with what you already have.

Posts 19693
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 1:36 AM

I got an error when trying to click on the above Compare link in Allen's post. Hovering over it popped up the correct URL: http://www.logos.com/comparison

But the status bar showed that where it really was going to try to go when I clicked on it was: http://community.logos.com/forums/AddPost.aspx/

Bizarre. Anyway, the correct link is: http://www.logos.com/comparison

Posts 1145
William | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 1:37 AM

Kolen Cheung:

After reading the product guide, I realized that I want to buy a theological dictionary:

In an earlier posting I thought you said you have the TDNT.?

I like the TDNT.  I think it is more comprehensive.  I just compared the TDNT and the EDNT.  The TDNT has a lot more information on Aaron qnd some comparison with Christ as priest.  The information on Aaron from the EDNT was a little common.  I do not have the third lexicon listed. 

I will let another person help with the OT.

Posts 19693
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 3:52 AM

William Bingham:

Kolen Cheung:

After reading the product guide, I realized that I want to buy a theological dictionary:

...

 

In an earlier posting I thought you said you have the TDNT.?

Yes, here's the post where you said you own Scholar's, which already has TDNT and TWOT:

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/12198/95622.aspx#95622

I know you were particularly concerned about not buying duplicate resources in the past (http://community.logos.com/forums/t/11869.aspx). I also see that you were having some problem with TDNT not showing up in your library even though you owned it already: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/11372.aspx. Make sure you have fully resolved that issue (and check to be sure you've got TWOT too; you should have it) instead of going out and buying them now.

When in doubt about what you should have already, check www.logos.com/comparison.

Posts 1875
Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 4:05 AM

Rosie

Do you ever sleep? Sleep

iMac Retina 5K, 27": 3.6GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.15.5; 1TB SSD; Logos 8

MacBook Air 13.3": 1.8GHz; 4GB RAM; MacOS 10.13.6; 256GB SSD; Logos 8

iPad Pro 32GB WiFi iOS 13.5.1

iPhone 8+ 64GB iOS 13.5.1

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 4:11 AM

Alan Macgregor:

Rosie

Do you ever sleep? Sleep

I'm beginning to think that Rosie has an IV feeding coffee directly into her veins by her computer. Coffee

Posts 19693
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 4:27 AM

Alan Macgregor:

Rosie

Do you ever sleep? Sleep

Um, not enough. I go through waves of getting only 4-5 hours a night (sometimes even less) and then I go through stretches of catching up and being really good about taking care of myself. Right now I'm in one of those bad waves. I thought I'd committed to staying on a healthy work/sleep schedule starting at the beginning of Lent, but a deadline to get an article finished (which I've been procrastinating on -- by continuing to check the Logos forum for any new posts about every 5 minutes!) and the Olympic Fever which has hit Vancouver have been making it really hard for me to keep my commitment. But hey, at least I got to see the USA-CAN Hockey game yesterday, and it was awesome!  But I still haven't finished that article, and the editor is breathing down my neck...  It was due Friday. I love Logos, but I've got to stop playing with it. It is really killing my work!

Kevin Becker:

I'm beginning to think that Rosie has an IV feeding coffee directly into her veins by her computer. Coffee

Close. Diet Coke. I go through 3 to 4 20-oz. (591 ml) bottles a day.

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 5:41 AM

Rosie Perera:
Close. Diet Coke. I go through 3 to 4 20-oz. (591 ml) bottles a day.

My wife absolutely loves diet coke. She gets a 7-eleven Super Big Gulp every day on her way to work. Its her "coffee."

Posts 142
Michael Sullivan | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 5:41 AM

Regarding Kittel, one should be aware of certain "issues" and not swallow everything he says with out discernment.  Below is a summary Prof. Mark G. Vitalis Hoffman wrote concerning Kittel, which can be accessed under his October 19th blog post (http://bibleandtech.blogspot.com/search/label/lexicon) concerning Greek English Lexical  resources (it is a hyperlink to a word document when you click "drawbacks" in his post about the TDNT).  Here is what he wrote:

Kittel, Gerhard and Gerhard Friedrich, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament

1.      Kittel and Friedrich’s work is a monumental corntribution to NT studies, and took about 30 years to complete in the original German.

2.      Like Brown, it focuses on theologically significant words, and is arranged by root, so, sometimes, a word may not be where you think it would be, particularly if it has a prepositional prefix (such as sun).

3.      It is in 10 vols., with v. 10 containing a prehistory of the TDNT, full names and brief bios of the contributors, including the contributed articles, and indexes (Greek, English, Scripture).

4.      An abridged, 1 v. edition, based on the English terms, has also been issued.

5.      The TDNT is very reliable for Greek (Classical and Hellenistic),  LXX and NT word usages.

6.      Do NOT rely on it for what it says about Judaism.

a.       Especially in the editions edited by Kittel.

b.      Kittel was an urbane, sophisticated and intelligent man, whose father, Rudolf Kittel, edited the Biblica Hebraica.

c.       He was also a Nazi, and wrote some vicious anti-Semitic tracts during the war (I know, I cataloged one)

d.      Indeed, he was imprisoned by the French after WW2, and died in his 50’s in about 1947 I believe. See the book, Hitler’s Theologians.

7.      There has also been some disagreement on the method of a theological lexicon such as the TDNT, since words meaning are important in context (see J. Barr, Semantics of Biblical Language, 1962).

a.       That is, no word contains all possible ramifications when it is used, as we know from the term “awful” which used to mean to be full of awe or awe inspiring.

b.      When we use the word, we seldom think that an “awful” experience is one that inspires awe, but dread.

8.      Yet, despite reservations, the TDNT provides important insights in how words were used both in the NT as well as its contemporary environment and the LXX.

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 6:18 AM

Michael Sullivan:
Regarding Kittel, one should be aware of certain "issues" and not swallow everything he says with out discernment. 
We shouldn't swallow anything anyone says without discernment. Including bloggers.

Michael, a couple of questions. Have you researched the academic credibility of Mr. Hoffman? Are his view points supported by other academics in the field of biblical linguistics?I notice that while he says Do NOT rely on it for what it says about Judaism." but he gives no specifics or evidence that TDNT promotes an anti-semitic agenda. Have you seen any?

 

BTW, please don't read any adverse emotions into this post, I just found the referenced blogger's arguments unconvincing and incomplete, especially  when he ended his review with "I find that I don't check it that often, because I don't have time to read through the oftentimes very lengthy entries! ". His major concern seemed to be one of time, not bias.

 

 

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 6:49 AM

Terry Poperszky:

Michael, a couple of questions. Have you researched the academic credibility of Mr. Hoffman? Are his view points supported by other academics in the field of biblical linguistics?I notice that while he says Do NOT rely on it for what it says about Judaism." but he gives no specifics or evidence that TDNT promotes an anti-semitic agenda. Have you seen any?

 

BTW, please don't read any adverse emotions into this post, I just found the referenced blogger's arguments unconvincing and incomplete, especially  when he ended his review with "I find that I don't check it that often, because I don't have time to read through the oftentimes very lengthy entries! ". His major concern seemed to be one of time, not bias.

Anti-Semitic biases of Kittel and some other contributors to the TDNT have been well documented and a wide-spread opinion within scholarship. A Google search for Kittel and Anti-Semitism will give some examples of articles and books that been written. I have not personally read a catalog of questionable statements in TDNT validating this claim but I have read this judgment from sources I trust.

Personally, I use Kittel sparingly because of these concerns and the methodological weaknesses (in my view) of the theological dictionary approach.

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 7:02 AM

Kevin Becker:
Anti-Semitic biases of Kittel and some other contributors to the TDNT have been well documented and a wide-spread opinion within scholarship. A Google search for Kittel and Anti-Semitism will give some examples of articles and books that been written. I have not personally read a catalog of questionable statements in TDNT validating this claim but I have read this judgment from sources I trust.

Kevin, I wasn't disputing Kittel's anti-semitic bias (or activities.), what I was talking about was the assertion without evidence of that bias within the TDNT. Now if he had referenced M. Casey, 'Some Anti-Semitic Assumptions in the TDNT',NovT 41 (1999), or a similar work, You wouldn't have heard a peep out of me. Just because someone says something, doesn't meant it is true. I was simply asking whether the poster had researched the blogger's statements or was taking them at face value. Then I commented on the lack of consistency within the referenced blogger's own arguments.

 

BTW, I found Casey's work by using Google. Stick out tongue (TDNT AND anti-semitic)

 

 

 

 

Posts 1601
Ben | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 7:06 AM

"Mr." Hoffman is a Greek/NT professor at Lutheran Theological Seminary.

http://www.gettysburgseminary.org/mhoffman/

He uses and reviews computer Bible software.

And yes, his warnings about the TDNT are accurate, and apply more to the earlier than later volumes. The authors were somewhat guilty of the etymological fallacy, IIRC, which James Barr ( big name in linguistics/Semitics) took serious issue with.

I don't use TDNT since I'm a OT/Semiticist guy, but what he says was common knowledge in my program. Fortunately, by the time they got to the TDOT, the methodology had changed.

"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton

Posts 255
Pat Flanakin | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 7:07 AM

For what it is worth, any course on how to research would not utilize Kittel, or similar resources as primary, but secondary, for most reference.  A basis for Kittel's conclusions should be examined on any point of research.

Posts 3917
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 7:19 AM

Terry Poperszky:
. Now if he had referenced M. Casey, 'Some Anti-Semitic Assumptions in the TDNT',NovT 41 (1999), or a similar work, You wouldn't have heard a peep out of me.

 

Now, Terry, what makes you think that NovT 41 is reliable?  Just because it is in print and on a library shelf . . . . (or google result)   Wink

 

peace.

 

 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 2746
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 7:28 AM

Kevin Becker:

Anti-Semitic biases of Kittel and some other contributors to the TDNT have been well documented and a wide-spread opinion within scholarship. A Google search for Kittel and Anti-Semitism will give some examples of articles and books that been written. I have not personally read a catalog of questionable statements in TDNT validating this claim but I have read this judgment from sources I trust.

Personally, I use Kittel sparingly because of these concerns and the methodological weaknesses (in my view) of the theological dictionary approach.

Thanks Kevin for that information. This bias is very important to me (to avoid) so I am glad you mention that.

Bohuslav

Posts 2746
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 7:33 AM

Rosie Perera:
But hey, at least I got to see the USA-CAN Hockey game yesterday, and it was awesome! 

Off-Topic:  ...Rossie, wait for the USA - Czech hockey duel. It will be the proper fight... (at finals?) Cool

P.S. Please guys, I know it is too late to take it back, so please don't kill me... Smile

Bohuslav

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 7:38 AM

Dan DeVilder:
Now, Terry, what makes you think that NovT 41 is reliable?  Just because it is in print and on a library shelf . . . . (or google result)   Wink

 

I didn't say it was reliable Stick out tongue, I didn't even say that I read it. Stick out tongue But at least its focus is the point at hand, and not a bland assertion or guilt by association. Sorry guys, this had nothing to do with Kittel, or TDNT. This have everything to do with not believing something just because someone said so.

On a similar point, I repeatedly encourage my SS classes to check the reference material that the Pastor cites from the Pulpit. But then we all know that a Pastor would never lie, exaggerate or stretch the truth to behind the pulpit, don't we.

 

BTW, you won't be hearing from me much more. I have hooked up with this gentleman over seas that has a business proposition, he has come into quite a bit of money and needs some one to launder it for him in the states. I just forwarded him my bank account information so he can deposit my initial commission directly in to my account. I AM GOING TO BE RICH and won't have time for the forums anymore.

 

 

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