Should Faithlife use Kickstarter instead of Pre Pub?

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Feb 11 2016 6:21 PM

Kickstarter is awesome... and I wish we'd thought of it. We should have -- we had Pre Pub up and running more than a decade earlier! :-)

While the systems are similar, Kickstarter offers a different audience and a clever model for different levels (and rewards) of sponsorship.

We're we're trying it out for our Bible Sounds project:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/faithlife/bible-sounds-anthems-for-little-theologians

What do you think? Should we extend Pre Pub to support similar levels for new projects? Is it a good idea to try a different channel where we can meet (and get support from) a different pool of users?

And what do you think of Bible Sounds?

-- Bob

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Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2016 6:32 PM

Looks like great material.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

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Erwin Stull, Sr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2016 6:35 PM

Kickstarter looks good, but I wouldn't abandon the current system that most of us are comfortable with. Maybe add Kickstarter as an addition.

EDIT: Bible Sounds is great. It's nice to have something geared towards the babies. Smile

Posts 4138
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2016 6:43 PM

In general No.

Seems like it would increase complexity for consumers, AND would increase overhead, doesn't Kickstarter cost like 17%?

I started to say that you might get a better audience on some of the titles stuck in CP for years and years... But even then, most of the people interested in such titles would be already aware of your existing CP system.

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Frank Sauer | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2016 6:48 PM

Could be interesting, though I'm not sure the Bible Sounds project gives us a good understanding of how it may work for books/resources/bundles.

How would the project be set up for resources? It seems multiple levels really wouldn't fit ownership of a resource license.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2016 6:55 PM

abondservant:
In general No.

Seems like it would increase complexity for consumers, AND would increase overhead, doesn't Kickstarter cost like 17%?

Agree... Although... (From a Mac User): For all we heard from windows mobile users about how much they would support and pay for an app, they haven't stepped up in CP. Hey, even I placed a bid to help out! Perhaps Kickstarter would be an option. 

macOS, iOS & iPadOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 259
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2016 7:06 PM

This is FL presenting a topsy-turvy face to its customers.

I believe you should present, as a 1st draft, how this would work for your various products, not just kick it off the edge of your desk, a rattling skeleton without any fleshed-out ideas attached, to land in this Forum.  Surely, you can share with us some outline of ideas.

I know nothing of Kickstarter.  Tell me what is good about it!!!

You showed an example of a new product - we need to know how it might work for the established lines of products.

Posts 948
Everett Headley | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2016 7:53 PM

I say Kickstart er would be helpful only as supplemental to the PrePubs.

I WOULD MUCH RATHER LOGOS INVESTED IN IDEAS AND SUGGESTIONS THAT WE HAVE CLAMORED FOR ON THESE FORUMS FOR YEARS.

I would gladly pay ~$20 for an add on that would integrate and RSS feed.  Kickstart that.

Posts 5318
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2016 7:56 PM

Kickstarter is something I have had issues with. Not personally but friends I mean. Kickstarter makes no guarantee of a product as described. Indeed in some cases if not enough money is raised you end up get no product. People who have complained to their credit card companies have been told refund was impossible because it is treated as a donation. Most people do not wish to defraud people who do KS, but it is a risk, money up front with no guarantee that you will ever get anything.

-Dan 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2016 8:49 PM

I can see it as a possibility for things that are clearly independent projects. This particular project I have no interest in or opinion about. The only concern that I would have - based on no real information but gleaned from forum responses - is given the recent layoffs is this a case of loosing focus on your primary product or evidence of a weak market for you primary product? My personal reading is much more that you are an ideas man but I have found that I'm often out of step with the forum crowd on such matters.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2016 9:51 PM

scooter:
I believe you should present, as a 1st draft, how this would work for your various products,

I'm sorry for the confusion. I didn't meant to suggest that we'd use Kickstarter to replace Pre Pub for things Pre Pub is great at -- like a new Logos Edition electronic book. It was more a question about what to do with things like this, that are different and could have tiers -- should we run them outside, like we're trying now, or try to bring some of this multi-tier purchase concept BACK to the Pre Pub system?

Do people mind that it's a different account system (bad for people with Faithlife users, but opens up non-Logos-specific products like this one to a larger audience), or think we shouldn't do that?

I meant the question to be a little provocative, but not antagonistic. :-)

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2016 10:02 PM

MJ. Smith:
The only concern that I would have ... is this a case of loosing focus on your primary product or evidence of a weak market for you primary product?

I expected someone would ask this. :-)

At some level, every time any team member here does anything other than the thing you want done first, it's a distraction. Even if that team member (say, a motion graphics designer) doesn't have the skills to accomplish that user's top priority (say, fixing a particular bug). We could have fired team member A and spent the money to hire team member B who can do what you want! (I'm being facetious...)

And with team members going to lunch, or getting coffee, or working on Proclaim instead of Logos or the Android App instead of the iOS App, well, we're always disappointing someone with our poor allocation of resources. And, for that someone, it's true. Alas!

I am an ideas person, and we're going to keep exploring new ones. At some point, yes, we'll reach diminishing returns on new features in the core product. At some point more users will want mobile-only, or web-only, or Mac OS X 27.34 Wild-Panther-Only support, and we'll regret not having put more energy into that earlier. And we'll regret the energy we did put into researching how to make a BlackBerry app. :-)

And beyond all that -- the constant search for new ideas, new products, new platforms -- there's also the fact that awesome creative people can get bored / stuck / frustrated if all they do is crank out very important and very useful but very much the same stuff. So sometimes we encourage doing something really different, if we can help it cover itself.

Bible Sounds is a load of fun for the team involved, and our goal is to have it cover its costs. It also stretches skill sets, helps us learn new techniques and tools, explores a new market for (very different) Bible-oriented content, and gives us a way to enter the attention-sphere of people (Christian parents?) who might never have encountered us otherwise, but might yet decide they need Bible software, after discovering us somewhere they hang out (Kickstarter?).

It's an experiment. :-)

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Mike Tourangeau | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 11 2016 11:15 PM

Bob Pritchett:
I am an ideas person, and we're going to keep exploring new ones

This is why Logos is awesome. My wife calls it my "other wife" Surprise but seriously, I love Logos and look forward to what the company produces.

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2016 12:01 AM

@ Bob 

I have only used Logos for about 5 years now. I am very happy with the software and I started with Logos 4 then upgraded to 5 & 6.

I have a good bit of money for me in your product Logos Bible software. 

It does seam to me that money issues at Logos/FL have been dictating change for the company lately. With the cuts in the sales staff, i did not look to much into this.

But now with starting new projects like this kickstarter, it makes me start to woulder about Logos future. And this may also cause me to not spend as much or to be careful about what i buy in the future.

Please understand Bob i do know that Logos is a business and that you are wanting to come up with different ways of making money. But when I as a user see the company drifting from the core product that is when i get concerned. 

By core I mean Logos 6, the Logos mobile apps, also I like the new Logos Now & Cloud.

I think the most important that Logos/FL should be doing is support what we your customers have already paid for.

We have many Pre-pubs that have been under contract from back in 2014 or longer, what is the hold up with all of these is it understaffing? And then we see a new thing like Kickstarter.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2016 4:05 AM

I think that it has potential and would be interested in seeing it tested by Faithlife.

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Dave Thawley | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2016 4:22 AM

Its a good idea Bob. Perhaps try it out on a few fringe products to see if it takes off. I suppose its a bit like community pricing anyway isn't it.  It is good to see you inovating

Have you ever considered something akin to open sourcing as well - i.e. get customers to proof read stuff for a free copy of it. It could allow  you to put more information out there with the current level of staff you have and allow people to get free material with the knowledge they have helped produce something great :)

Posts 13417
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2016 5:17 AM

Bob Pritchett:
I'm sorry for the confusion. I didn't meant to suggest that we'd use Kickstarter to replace Pre Pub for things Pre Pub is great at -- like a new Logos Edition electronic book. It was more a question about what to do with things like this, that are different and could have tiers -- should we run them outside, like we're trying now, or try to bring some of this multi-tier purchase concept BACK to the Pre Pub system?

I don't mind you using Kickstarter for things that are very different — you've done so before with the coffee-table book of Bible art.

But as you're an ideas man, I do think there is room for more innovation to supplement the existing pre-pub and community pricing programme.

For example:

  1. A page where Logos Now subscribers can vote on the priority of possible features. Give each subscriber three votes, which they can pledge towards one big project, or three smaller projects, or one medium and one small project. Every month or two, commit to doing the most popular project, add two or three new suggestions, and let people reassign their votes.

  2. A proper suggestions page for resources, where people can see search for books, and vote for them (a kind or pre-pre-pub). There'd be a league table, and we could see how many people have voted for each resource. When books were produced, you'd move them to a separate list, so that people could see that views are listening to. You couldn't commit to producing the books of course, as that would depend on the publishers, but it would be a much better system than the current one.
Posts 259
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2016 5:42 AM

Mark Barnes indicated: ''A proper suggestions page for resources, where people can see search for books, and vote for them (a kind or pre-pre-pub). There'd be a league table, and we could see how many people have voted for each resource. When books were produced, you'd move them to a separate list, so that people could see that views are listening to. You couldn't commit to producing the books of course, as that would depend on the publishers, but it would be a much better system than the current one.''

I believe this is a very good idea wherein the core product is well taken care of, and is seen to be well taken care of. 

Re Kickstarter:  Yeah, I could go to the web + find out how it works, but I believe when FL brings a new idea to the forum, the writer should say how it works.  That's good sense, + good business.

Posts 4565
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2016 6:06 AM

Bob Pritchett:

I didn't meant to suggest that we'd use Kickstarter to replace Pre Pub for things Pre Pub is great at -- like a new Logos Edition electronic book.

What would a Logos Edition Electronic Book be?

Posts 391
Geo Philips | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2016 6:06 AM

I backed the Kickstarter for 'Picturing Scripture' and I backed this one too. :)

That being said, Prepub could take some ideas from Kickstarter. In general, I think Prepub (not community) prices could be lower and you could offer higher tiers with more rewards.

For eg., there is a recent prepub that bundles in Barclay's 'The Gift' with a couple of other books.

I am only interested in 'The Gift' so I didnt back it (I got the core of Gundry's argument from tons of related journal articles and it didnt interest me.) Now what if just 'The Gift' was offered at $10 cheaper than the bundle with all three books? I would have backed that.

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