Help for a student of the Bible please

Page 1 of 1 (8 items)
This post has 7 Replies | 0 Followers

Posts 3
Michael V Grigsby | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Feb 23 2010 1:31 PM

In reading the Gospel of John, at times there appears to be some “difficulties” with the arrangement of material. For instance, John 14:30-31 poses one such difficulty. Here it appears that Jesus has completed his upper room discourse. He implies that his arrest is at hand by saying, “I will not talk much with you, for the prince of this world cometh.” Then he says, “Arise, let us go hence.” But Jesus does have much more to talk to them about—86 verses—before the coming of Judas (up to 18:1). Should 14:31 be followed by 18:1? How do you explain this “difficulty?”  Consult resources and discuss this. 

Is there a way I can use my Logos 4 Platinum series to find any comments on this?  I have done the normal things (i.e. enter John 14:31 in the search and read most if not all of the commentaries there with no luck)

Can anyone help me?

Posts 9520
Forum MVP
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 1:43 PM

Michael,

If Jesus said 'I will not talk with you' instead of 'I will not talk much with you' it might be a 'difficulty'. He didn't say that and that's what the record demonstrates. I suppose the problem might be with your understanding of what 'much' might imply. It is not a problem to me. My guess is that it was not a difficulty to the commentators you consulted, either, which is why they don't say anything.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 5622
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 1:44 PM

Michael V Grigsby:
Is there a way I can use my Logos 4 Platinum series to find any comments on this?  I have done the normal things (i.e. enter John 14:31 in the search and read most if not all of the commentaries there with no luck)

In D.A. Carson's commentary, The Gospel According to John, from the Pillar NT Commentary series, there is a long discussion on your question in the introduction to the section "B. THE FAREWELL DISCOURSE: PART ONE (13:31–14:31)".  Since you have Platinum, you should have this commentary in your library.

Here's a link to the relevant discussion that should open the book up in Logos for you (if everything is set up correctly):

libronixdls:jump|pos=LLS-AOL:0<SECT.4.11>.984.0|res=LLS:29.48.20

 

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 191
Sharon | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 4:52 PM

I think context is invaluable here.  The time Jesus ministered to the crowds, (the first part of John)  turns into (like zooming in with a camera lens) the time Jesus ministered to His disciples (the second part of John) and then turns into (zoom in again) the period of time where even His ministry with His disciples was just about finished.

Much - in the context of 86 verses compared to another number of verses is not going to be accurate.

However, much - in the context of the whole book of John is actually very definitive!

If we could just teach Logos how to do context for us!  Stick out tongue

wordcenterministries.org

Posts 2246
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 5:12 PM

Michael V Grigsby:

Is there a way I can use my Logos 4 Platinum series to find any comments on this?  I have done the normal things (i.e. enter John 14:31 in the search and read most if not all of the commentaries there with no luck)

Can anyone help me?

Michael, Todd has already pointed you to the appropriate place in the Pillar NT Commentary. You will need to look in each commentary for the section on the composition of the Gospel. Also note, that BECNT, offers a "plausible" reason for this by suggesting that they go for a walk into the hllsides for the Vine discourse (see esp. footnote 104. libronixdls:jump|pos=LLS-AOL:0<P...445>.2278.0|res=LLS:BECNT64JN ).

As I assume that this is a question for an academic assignment, you will need to consult the critical commentaries which are not found in the Platinum package, Anchor, ICC, WBC, John, etc.  Many, of these, assume multiple stages of composition (anywhere up to seven).

Posts 5622
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 7:08 PM

Michael V Grigsby:
I have done the normal things (i.e. enter John 14:31 in the search and read most if not all of the commentaries there with no luck)

Just an addendum to my previous comment:

Often times, opening up a commentaries at whatever point they are indexed for a scripture reference can be misleading.  Sometimes the commentaries have multiple sections that talk about a passage--they may break it up into separate exegetical discussions and theological discussion, plus have another section for text critical issues.  So just because the commentary says it's at John 14:31, doesn't mean that you have all the commentary has to say about that verse at that point. You should probably read commentaries section by section, instead of verse by verse.

CASE-IN-POINT:

When opening the Pillar commentary to John 14:31, it takes me to the start of a subsection for John 14:15-31.  To find the part about 14:31, you have to scroll several pages down.  Then when you get there, it says at the very end of that section, "On the final words of the chapter, Come now; let us leave, cf. notes introducing 13:31ff."  Well, then, that means I need to find the the "notes introducing 13:31ff", and just typing in John 13:31 take me to a section on 13:13-38, and it's not discussed there. So I look at the table of contents and I see another section before that one called "THE FAREWELL DISCOURSE: PART ONE (13:31–14:31)", and I say "ah HA!". And I find the excellent discussion there.

 

 

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 19273
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 23 2010 8:34 PM

Todd Phillips:

Often times, opening up a commentaries at whatever point they are indexed for a scripture reference can be misleading.

...

When opening the Pillar commentary to John 14:31, it takes me to the start of a subsection for John 14:15-31.  To find the part about 14:31, you have to scroll several pages down.  Then when you get there, it says at the very end of that section, "On the final words of the chapter, Come now; let us leave, cf. notes introducing 13:31ff."  Well, then, that means I need to find the the "notes introducing 13:31ff", and just typing in John 13:31 take me to a section on 13:13-38, and it's not discussed there. So I look at the table of contents and I see another section before that one called "THE FAREWELL DISCOURSE: PART ONE (13:31–14:31)", and I say "ah HA!". And I find the excellent discussion there.

Thanks for that helpful example! Logos is great for finding things, but sometimes we still need to use our own gold-digging abilities to find the best stuff!

Posts 3
Michael V Grigsby | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 25 2010 7:09 PM

Thanks to all of you for your time and patience in helping me find the answers I needed.

God Bless you all,

Michael

Page 1 of 1 (8 items) | RSS