Notes Compromise idea

Page 1 of 3 (53 items) 1 2 3 Next >
This post has 52 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Mar 3 2010 3:32 PM

I am writing this to get feedback from Logos 4 users on how they think this idea would integrate with the way they use Logos 4. I may add this idea to logos.uservoice.com depending on the feedback I get here.

It seems to me the main appeal of being able to have notes in Logos is the convenience of having them inside the program and the ability to search them. However, the notes features fall well short of note taking programs and word processors. Bob has said that he doesn't want to get into the Word processor business. Logos, even after a substantial investments, wouldn't be able to provide all the features of Word or OneNote etc. that users might want.

Instead of beefing up the Notes function exponentially only to deliver less functionality than programs already on our computers, why not index files saved by those programs?

My suggestion would be to index files of the programs that do note-taking or word processing well (e.g.: .doc, .docx, .one, .pdf, .odt). Windows already does this. I imagine telling the indexer which folders I wanted included in this user-document index.

This search could be placed alongside Basic, Bible, Morph, and Syntax. I doubt proximity searches (like WITHIN, BEFORE etc.) would be needed so it could be a simple  index where the results could come back with the number of hits within the file and the date that file was last modified. The logic behind Refftagger could be applied to automatically tag Bible references so you could search these files for Bible references.

If Logos did this I think it would be the best of both worlds. We could search our notes and Logos wouldn't have to try to keep up with the latest in Word processing and note-taking. The current notes should be left in place, not only for legacy reasons but for the "annotation in the margins" that they are designed for. Not being a programmer I don't know how involved implementing this suggestion would be, but it seems like it would be easier than building an entire word processor within Logos (which users seem to be clamoring for loudly).

What do you think?

Posts 32993
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 3 2010 3:41 PM

This is something I had suggested as finishing building a knowledge base (in the General Knowledge Base sense of the term). I'm fairly sure that they have used the GKB in the past and with the use of favorites as a linkage mechanism and the "my Content" searches they have some of the fundamentals in place.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 75
Robert Kostenbauder | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 3 2010 3:53 PM

I was thinking that I would use OneNote as my note taking facility. In fact with Win7 you can move L4 to one side of the screen and then open OneNote on the other side of your screen.  Works great.  Your idea is also great.

Posts 35
nikk | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 3 2010 3:55 PM

I agree, it would be much more productive.

Posts 446
Jonathan Sine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 3 2010 4:04 PM

The only thing keeping me from using Onenote regularly is that with L4 you can hover over Bible references to see the verses.

Jonathan Sine

Pastor - Squamish Baptist Church

2 Cor. 4.6

Posts 1145
William | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 3 2010 4:04 PM

Kevin Becker:
What do you think?

I personally really like this idea.  I think this would be of great benefit. 

I am only thinking of one issue that would need to be considered.  It just would need to be limited to documents that we (the user) is the original author.  If we are able to search other documents....that would get off into copyright issues.  I do not know about the ins and outs of copyright.  I am just thinking it would have to be considered. 

 

Posts 4768
RIP
Fred Chapman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 3 2010 6:42 PM

Kevin,

I would love to have my OneNote notebooks indexed and come up as links in the My Content section. If OneNote could somehow be integrated as an optional tool in L4 I would not care if L4 had a notes capability. I have switched back and forth between Onenote and Logos note feature since converting to Office 2007. The only reason I still come back to L4 notes is the convenience of being able to save created notes in study layouts and the fact that they are included in my searches.

I think your idea should be explored; but not being a programmer I have no idea what hurdles the development teams would have to overcome.

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 3 2010 8:26 PM

Kevin Becker:
What do you think?

This would be better than what we have.  The problem that I have is that it will not place a icon in our Bibles/books stating that we have notes that relate to the text.

I do not believe Bob needs to have his team create a word processor.  I do not see why they cannot simply embed an existing word processor.  While I am not a fan of OpenOffice, they do create an open source word processor.  I do not see why embedding this "free" program into Logos is such a problem.

Posts 76
Philip Gurgel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 3 2010 8:33 PM

It would be nice if they included Evernote as well.  I started using that lately, it's nice to have access to my notes wherever I can pop on to the Internet.

Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 4 2010 2:06 AM

tom collinge:
The problem that I have is that it will not place a icon in our Bibles/books stating that we have notes that relate to the text.

But we could attach hyperlinks to the verses an icon could tell us that we had linked a document to that verse we could then link multiple document formats (Word, OneNote, XMind, etc.) to a single verse and would not be restricted to a single program and its facilities. The biggest issue with this that I see is the ability to quickly preview the content of the notes. The integrated notes can be viewed by hovering and I'm not sure how easily this functionality could be replicated if the notes are stored externally in a number of different programs.

One thing that I wonder about Notes is do people actually want (or need) a better Note taking facility or do they need better integration between the basic Note taking tools that we have and the various external Word Processing tools? Personally I am happy with the toolset that I have but my frustrations are generally caused by these tools not working together as I would like.

I curently use Logos Notes and Clippings to capture ideas when I am studying, I use OneNote to capture information and ideas from non Logos sources and I use XMind to organise thoughts. In any of these I may add a Hyperlink to a source in one of the others. For presentation or publication the materials will them be exported to Word of PowerPoint where I will take the various ideas and produce a final output. It is at this point most of my personal frustrations exist because the primary way that the transfer is achieved is through copy and paste. For me better integration would enable Notes and Clippings from Logos to be sent to Word or PowerPoint in a number of different ways i.e. entire files, selected articles or selcted text.

When I first saw the Handout Feature in Beta I had hoped that this would provide a solution but unfortunately in its current form it does not. My ideal would be to capture my Logos generated content in a handout (or similar) document and publish to Word and/or PowerPoint using a Word/PowerPoint Template to determine style.

I do think that Bob and the Team at Logos need a clearer strategy in this area because it does look like they are in danger of ending up with multiple word processing/text publishing tools in a program that is NOT a word processor. I'm thinking here of Notes and Clippings, both of which I currently use plus Handouts, the Various Study Documents, The Sermon Addin (when it arrives) and the PBB Publishing facilities. Logos 4 supports significantly more user content and ways to generate that content than version 3 and to realistically support that content I think Logos will inevitably need to provide better internal editing tools, including a spell checker, or better integration with the external tools that they would prefer us to use. 

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

Posts 2759
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 4 2010 2:35 AM

it sounds great guys, but am still holing out that Logos will come throught for us.

I suggest when PBB are reintroduced with the enhancement Bob hinted at, most of these points are muted, as there will be more case for using PBB instead of notes.

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 270
Stein Dahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 4 2010 3:52 AM

Kevin Becker:
What do you think?
I had thought of something like this before also. The note feature in Logos 4 could be programmed to use an "outside" word processor - (i.e.; Word Pad, Word, OpenOffice, etc.) - in which to write and store your notes.  These notes would have to be accessible from inside the program though for it to work the way I would want it to work. 

For instance, if I add a note to John 3:16 and a note icon appears there in the text, I should still get at least part of my note in a pop-up when I hover my mouse over that note icon.  When I click on the note icon to open my note file, it should open the word processor of my choice  - but within the notes window - inside of Logos.

And any links I have made in my notes (to Bibles or other resources) should be active so that if I click a link in my notes, it would take me to that resource, or open that resource in it's own tab, or open that resource in a floating window.

I think it's possible.  WORDsearch has something similar to this in the way they use and store user created documents.  They are stored in a special folder that the program accesses through a window within the program.  And any links that are stored in these documents will produce pop-ups and if you click them they will open the resource that the links point to.  

If Logos did this at least they wouldn't have to create their own word processor.  They would just have to write some code to make using an outside word processor a functional reality for the notes feature in L4.

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 4 2010 4:45 AM

William Bingham:
I am only thinking of one issue that would need to be considered.  It just would need to be limited to documents that we (the user) is the original author.  If we are able to search other documents....that would get off into copyright issues.  I do not know about the ins and outs of copyright.  I am just thinking it would have to be considered.

Perhaps not. Windows already has an indexing service that enables searching inside documents. As far as I know it also indexes copyrighted works I have downloaded in .doc or .pdf. If there was a copyright issue I imagine MS would be defending itself in court right now. The thorniest issue might be whatever patents protect the way Windows indexes the contents of files on the hard drive.

tom collinge:
This would be better than what we have.  The problem that I have is that it will not place a icon in our Bibles/books stating that we have notes that relate to the text.

What go me thinking about this issue yesterday was the thought of making a note file for links to external documents. It would be a manual way of getting note icons to show up in my text. I could also past an excerpt from the file so I could get limited preview capabilities. However, the problem with this would be if I ever decided to rearrange my user files, I would end up breaking a lot of links.

DominicM:

it sounds great guys, but am still holing out that Logos will come throught for us.

I suggest when PBB are reintroduced with the enhancement Bob hinted at, most of these points are muted, as there will be more case for using PBB instead of notes.

This is quite true. However, the number of people who will use the PBB will be limited if the pricing structure is similar to what it was in LDLS 3. Also, I doubt that PBB build books will be able to be edited on the fly. Every time I come back to a subject or passage I hope to be gleaning fresh insights and observations, it's easy to add to a Note file or Word Processing document, adding to a PBB will likely be much more time consuming.

Stein Dahl:
I had thought of something like this before also. The note feature in Logos 4 could be programmed to use an "outside" word processor - (i.e.; Word Pad, Word, OpenOffice, etc.) - in which to write and store your notes.  These notes would have to be accessible from inside the program though for it to work the way I would want it to work. 

This seems to be a popular idea. I have my reservations about it. If Logos were to implement it, they would have to chase after any changes that are made to that word processor. Logos would then be in a similar situation as they were with IE and LDLS. Perhaps if Logos were to cannibalize code from an open-source project they could control these issues, but I don't know.

 

Thanks for all the interaction thus far. Hopefully all this discussion will help Logos as they work on improving the program.

Posts 370
Ken F Hill | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 4 2010 6:29 AM

If such a scheme were implemented, I hope it goes beyond OneNote to include other outliner/organizers (eg, KeyNote, TreePad, NoteTab) and formats (eg, RTF).

I'm not sure a fancy internal word processor is needed.  Freebie e-sword has capable notes abilities.  Even if it were no better than the post editor in this forum it would be adequate for me -- if it had good export capabilities.  If I had to do any kind of fancy formatting, I would just export to a page layout or word processing program.

Posts 2759
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 4 2010 7:00 AM

Kevin Becker:

DominicM:

it sounds great guys, but am still holing out that Logos will come throught for us.

I suggest when PBB are reintroduced with the enhancement Bob hinted at, most of these points are muted, as there will be more case for using PBB instead of notes.

This is quite true. However, the number of people who will use the PBB will be limited if the pricing structure is similar to what it was in LDLS 3. Also, I doubt that PBB build books will be able to be edited on the fly. Every time I come back to a subject or passage I hope to be gleaning fresh insights and observations, it's easy to add to a Note file or Word Processing document, adding to a PBB will likely be much more time consuming.

we'll have to wait and see i guess.. as for pricing yes, I would hope personal PBB might be free like several (unnamed) competitors, and there being a fee for the professional one, but its ok to dream isnt it...

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 45
Vivian Matheson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 4 2010 7:23 AM

Oh my gosh! That would be wonderful!   It would make "note taking" and "note finding" so much easier!  Do it!  Please!

Vivian Matheson

Posts 45
Vivian Matheson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 4 2010 7:27 AM

I obviously don't know how to get my reply to go directly to one post and not just be tagged on to the end of the whole long lists of replies.  What I just wrote makes no sense if it is not associated with Dominic's latest post of this morning, March 5.  Somebody advise me, please

Vivian Matheson

Posts 45
Vivian Matheson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 4 2010 7:28 AM

Oh Good grief!  It wasn't Dominic's post I was referring to - it was Kevin Beckers!  Sorry guys...

Vivian Matheson

Posts 370
Ken F Hill | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 4 2010 7:49 AM

VivianMatheson:
I obviously don't know how to get my reply to go directly to one post

When you reply, start by pressing the "reply" button.  In the post editor, highlight text you want to quote in your reply, then press the "quote" button (see below).  The person's name and the quoted text will appear above your comment.

 

Posts 1145
William | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 5 2010 1:43 AM

Kevin,

Maybe, I was adding something to your original thought that would not be involved in this note thread.  If we were to write notes about a particular document and we wanted to use it in a document we would need to cite the resource.  I  think I am talking outside of your indexing idea....

 

Page 1 of 3 (53 items) 1 2 3 Next > | RSS