How Will Logos/Faithlife Handle This?

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 16 2016 2:48 AM

I have all three of the above volumes both Pillar, and the NIGTC. 

Peter T. O'Brien is also the Author of Word Biblical Commentary on Colossians, Philemon has anyone looked into this volume also having " some plagiarism " ? This one could also be a problem.

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Posts 420
Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 16 2016 3:59 AM

I also have the four books by Peter O'Brien (in Word Bible Commentaries, Pillar and NIGTC) and will be very interested as to what approach Faithlife will take to this problem. The earlier suggestion of providing an annotation for each of the works in Logos (for those that want to retain the volumes) to the effect that the publisher subsequently discontinued those works after publication sounds like a good idea to me. 

Personally, I wouldn't assume Faithlife has any obligation other than perhaps to withdraw the volumes with a problem from future sale. They sold the copies we purchased in good faith and its not precisely clear from the publisher's statement whether the publisher is discontinuing because most of the content of the texts is problematic or they are doing so because of an abundance of caution. Nothing was said about the Word Biblical Commentary No. 44 (Colossians, Philemon) so its uncertain if that one is under review. Given Faithlife's good track in problem solving, I'm happy to wait until it issues its own considered approach to the problem.  Keep well  Paul             

Posts 1966
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 16 2016 4:34 AM

I would also like to go on record as saying that I will keep the volumes.  It would be nice that if they reissue the volumes with proper citations, Eerdman's give current Logos format owners a free updated version.  

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 933
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 16 2016 5:06 AM

I got on my phone to try seeing what books I had by this author and noticed something interesting. At first the app showed me only one book by Brandon O'Brien:

Then I tried something else and got the results I was expecting:

If you look at the circled text, you will see what the difference is. Apparently for some authors, such as Brandon O'Brien, Faithlife has the name formatted with a "plain" apostrophe, such as what Microsoft Notepad would use and what my phone keyboard uses when searching within the Logos app. For other authors, such as Peter O'Brien, Faithlife has the name formatted with a "stylized" apostrophe, such as what Microsoft Word would use. I cannot find a way to have the keyboard on my phone (Android) produce this kind of character, and thus I cannot find Peter O'Brien in the Logos app by typing his last name. I realize the metadata is likely provided by the publishers and particularly in the case of Vyrso titles is often not touched by Faithlife, but I wonder how widespread this issue actually is. Did anyone else encounter this when trying to look up Peter O'Brien on a mobile device?

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 16 2016 6:22 AM

Matthew, this same issue raises its ugly head now and again in various contexts - the last I remember were hymn texts in Proclaim. Logos has code available to handle this (so they say, and it works in finding long-s when searching for s) and they should either employ this or force consistent metadata.

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 118
Jonathan Ray | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 16 2016 6:43 AM

During seminary I have written two exegetical papers (on Ephesians and Philemon) in which I engaged heavily with O'Brien's work.  With his Ephesians commentary especially I started keeping a running document of the instances in which he quoted F. F. Bruce verbatim without attribution. If you compare F. F. Bruce's NICOT volume side by side with O'Brien's its as if O'Brien uses Bruce's flow of argument, concepts, and sometimes direct words as a base text. O'Brien then expands heavily upon it.  F. F. Bruce's older work is basically a concise version of O'Brien's.

This makes more sense considering that F. F. Bruce was O'Brien's mentor.  I truly believe O'Brien was not trying to steal Bruce's stuff and stamp them as his own.  Sometimes, an author's work has so influenced you that their words and ideas become a part of him or her.  Over the years, it is difficult to separate what is your thoughts from what is their thoughts. I have to believe this is what happened here in the case of F. F. Bruce's work at least.

I had been planning on sending this list of plagiarism instances shortly to Eerdman's for evaluation with a request that they consider do a revision of O'Brien's commentaries -- fixing the lack of citations. I would have hoped for a revision, not a retraction. I hope that they will still consider the possibility.

To illustrate how F. F. Bruce's work has influenced other authors, here are a couple of examples. :

  • Here is Bruce's original quote in his commentary from Philemon: "What the letter to Philemon does is to bring the institution into an atmosphere where it could only wilt and die" [F. F. Bruce, The Epistles to the Colossians, to Philemon, and to the Ephesians, The New International Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing, 1984) 197-98.].

Compare this quote with the following. Note that no quotation marks or citation is attached to their quotes. 

  1. "The letter to Philemon is moving in the realm of personal relationships where the institution of slavery could only wilt and die."[Peter T. O"Brien, “Philemon,” in New Bible Commentary: 21st Century Edition, ed. D. A. Carson et al., 4th ed. (Leicester, England; Downers Grove, IL: Inter-Varsity Press, 1994), 1317.].
  2. "Under this compulsion, slavery must ultimately wilt and die." [Arthur A. Rupprecht, “Philemon,” in The Expositor’s Bible Commentary: Ephesians through Philemon, ed. Frank E. Gaebelein, vol. 11 (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1981), 457.].
  3. "The social convention of slavery can only wilt and die when the gospel uproots the concept that grounds it and establishes its growth." [Andreas J. Köstenberger, L. Scott Kellum, and Charles L. Quarles, The Cradle, the Cross, and the Crown: An Introduction to the New Testament (Nashville, TN: B&H Academic, 2009), 630.].

What I am getting at here is that it is easy to see how catchy line from Bruce ended up in several commentaries without attribution. It is difficult to remember where a quote originated sometimes. Perhaps, too, authors have used it in sermons or lessons so many times that they forget someone else said it before they did.  Either way, I think it rests on the publishers to vet the manuscripts more to prevent future embarrassment to them and to the authors they publish.

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Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 16 2016 7:03 AM

When I search my library on my iOS for "o'brien" only the volumes of Ephesians and Hebrews show under the PNTC set.  When I do a search for PNTC, it gives me my 15 volumes with those two listed and Philippians.  Why doesn't Philippians show up when I search the authors last name?  Did logos change something?

Posts 3160
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 16 2016 7:07 AM

I'm sorry... my eyes and brain aren't working well today.  It seems my PNTC volume on Philippians is from Hansen which is what I thought wasn't showing.  Guess I don't have O'Brien's work on Philippians.

Sorry all

Posts 1825
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 16 2016 7:21 AM

RE: Jonathan Ray's post -

So EBC is copyrighted in 1981 and NICNT is copyrighted in 1984, but Rupprecht is quoting Bruce?

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 118
Jonathan Ray | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 16 2016 7:51 AM

I should have specified. Bruce's quote comes from an even earlier work of his, Paul: Apostle of the Heart Set Free, p. 401. This was written in 1977, which predates Rupprecht.

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 16 2016 8:13 AM

Matthew:

I got on my phone to try seeing what books I had by this author and noticed something interesting. At first the app showed me only one book by Brandon O'Brien:

Then I tried something else and got the results I was expecting:

If you look at the circled text, you will see what the difference is. Apparently for some authors, such as Brandon O'Brien, Faithlife has the name formatted with a "plain" apostrophe, such as what Microsoft Notepad would use and what my phone keyboard uses when searching within the Logos app. For other authors, such as Peter O'Brien, Faithlife has the name formatted with a "stylized" apostrophe, such as what Microsoft Word would use. I cannot find a way to have the keyboard on my phone (Android) produce this kind of character, and thus I cannot find Peter O'Brien in the Logos app by typing his last name. I realize the metadata is likely provided by the publishers and particularly in the case of Vyrso titles is often not touched by Faithlife, but I wonder how widespread this issue actually is. Did anyone else encounter this when trying to look up Peter O'Brien on a mobile device?

Ok...not trying to be mean or anything, but what does that have to do with anything? The issue is plagiarism and volumes being removed or bought back by the publisher, not the spelling of anybody's last name LOL that contributes nothing to the current issue. I'm sorry but you just left me wondering and scratching my head with your way out of the blue comment ๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿค” I was like...what? 

Posts 1825
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 16 2016 8:16 AM

Jonathan Ray:

I should have specified. Bruce's quote comes from an even earlier work of his, Paul: Apostle of the Heart Set Free, p. 401. This was written in 1977, which predates Rupprecht.

As is usually the case, there was more to the story than I was aware.

Thanks for the clarification.

I think this further exemplifies how tricky citation can be - even where no malice or attempt to deceive is at work.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

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Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 16 2016 8:22 AM
You are correct DAL. I'm sorry. I couldn't find the Philippians version so I thought maybe logos changed something in the index files which was my reason for posting. In the end, I just didn't pay enough attention and wasted people's time.
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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 16 2016 8:28 AM

Mattillo:
You are correct DAL. I'm sorry. I couldn't find the Philippians version so I thought maybe logos changed something in the index files which was my reason for posting. In the end, I just didn't pay enough attention and wasted people's time.

So you have 2 Logos accounts and post with both? I noticed one is Matthew and the other one Mattillo. I replied to Matthew which has less posts than Mattillo...I'm confused now...wait, you're not Unix are you? LOL nevermind. I'm going for a nap, that should make it alright ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ’ค๐Ÿ˜€

Posts 3160
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 16 2016 8:34 AM

No I only have one account... I assumed you were referencing me as my post contributed little as well not to mention my name is Matt :) 

Enjoy your nap. I need one too

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 16 2016 8:37 AM

DAL:

Mattillo:
You are correct DAL. I'm sorry. I couldn't find the Philippians version so I thought maybe logos changed something in the index files which was my reason for posting. In the end, I just didn't pay enough attention and wasted people's time.

So you have 2 Logos accounts and post with both? I noticed one is Matthew and the other one Mattillo. I replied to Matthew which has less posts than Mattillo...I'm confused now...wait, you're not Unix are you? LOL nevermind. I'm going for a nap, that should make it alright ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ’ค๐Ÿ˜€

Ok...not trying to be mean or anything, but what does that have to do with anything? The issue is plagiarism and volumes being removed or bought back by the publisher, not the spelling of anybody's last name LOL that contributes nothing to the current issue. I'm sorry but you just left me wondering and scratching my head with your way out of the blue comment ๐Ÿ˜๐Ÿค” I was like...what?

Wink

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Posts 917
David Carter | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 16 2016 8:57 AM

MJ. Smith:

Can't there be one place I can go and not run into politics ? Wink

I was wondering the same about censorship

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 16 2016 9:13 AM

I am just reading this thread now for the first time. It will be interesting to see how Faithlife will respond. Much wisdom is needed.

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Posts 461
Robert Harner | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 16 2016 9:20 AM

Jonathan Ray:

It is difficult to remember where a quote originated sometimes. 

"Without affirmative legislation in its favor slavery could not exist any longer than a new-born infant could survive under the heat of the sun, on a barren rock, without protection. It would wilt and die for the want of support."

The above is a quote from Stephen Douglas who in turn was quoting "an eminent southern Senator." This is from a 1858 debate with Abraham Lincoln. Did Bruce use this without attribution or are some phrases public domain because of long and common usage.

http://www.bartleby.com/251/pages/page91.html 

Posts 118
Jonathan Ray | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 16 2016 9:29 AM

This is very interesting.  Bruce's quote definitely has affinities with the quote you provided.  It was probably the seed thought for Bruce's quote.  Good catch.

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