How Will Logos/Faithlife Handle This?

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Posts 884
LogosEmployee
Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 17 2016 8:30 AM

Hi all,

We're still working with Eerdmans to come up with a plan for anyone who does want to return the commentaries.

For those to don't want to return them, please know that we will not take your commentaries away from you. You own them. Smile

Thank you!

Director, Bible Study Products Department

Posts 1501
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 17 2016 9:03 AM

Ben Amundgaard:

Hi all,

We're still working with Eerdmans to come up with a plan for anyone who does want to return the commentaries.

For those to don't want to return them, please know that we will not take your commentaries away from you. You own them. Smile

Thank you!

Thanks Ben, that's what I thought.

Posts 406
Erik | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 17 2016 9:19 AM

Ben Amundgaard:

Hi all,

We're still working with Eerdmans to come up with a plan for anyone who does want to return the commentaries.

For those to don't want to return them, please know that we will not take your commentaries away from you. You own them. Smile

Thank you!

I'd be interesting in knowing whether Eerdmans intends to revise the O'Brien works or if they are just going to replace them with works by different authors down the road. I think that would help many people decide whether they want to keep them or not.

Posts 1646
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Levi Durfey | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 17 2016 9:39 AM

The statement from Eerdman's found in the first post of this thread seems to indicate that they aren't interested in revising them:

Kenneth Neighoff:

August 15, 2016

At the beginning of July 2016, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. received allegations against one of its New Testament commentaries and immediately undertook a careful investigation. Eerdmans is now withdrawing that book and two others by the same author.

Eerdmans editors compared the text of The Letter to the Hebrews (Pillar New Testament Commentary, 2010) with various secondary sources and submitted findings to external experts for verification. Summing up the findings, Editor-in-chief James Ernest said, "Our own editors and our outside consultants agreed that what we found on the pages of this commentary runs afoul of commonly accepted standards with regard to the utilization and documentation of secondary sources. We agreed that the book could not be retained in print."

Examination of the same author's Letter to the Ephesians (PNTC, 1999) and Epistle to the Philippians (New International Greek Testament Commentary, 1991) found them less pervasively flawed but still untenable. 

The author, Peter T. O'Brien, was presented with the findings and provided the following response: "In the New Testament commentaries that I have written, although I have never deliberately misused the work of others, nevertheless I now see that my work processes at times have been faulty and have generated clear-cut, but unintentional, plagiarism. For this I apologize without reservation."

President and publisher Anita Eerdmans summed up the company's stance as follows: "Eerdmans is steadfastly committed to the highest ethical standards in academic and business practice, and we apologize to all who are negatively affected by this situation. Our Bible commentary series, among the best of their kind, are authored and edited by the field's top scholars. The strong measures we are taking in this case are meant to underscore our firm belief that our commentary program is, and must remain, solid."

Eerdmans is taking the following steps:

● Ceasing sales and pulp stock of all three volumes, placing them out of print.
● Offering credit to individuals and trade partners who have purchased the above three volumes. 
For detailed instructions on how to pursue this option, please write to commentarycredit@eerdmans.com.
● Discussing best practices for quality control with press editors, series editors, and authors.

Members of the media wishing to contact Eerdmans may send e-mail to publicity@eerdmans.com.

Posts 406
Erik | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 17 2016 10:01 AM

Levi Durfey:

The statement from Eerdman's found in the first post of this thread seems to indicate that they aren't interested in revising them:

Kenneth Neighoff:

August 15, 2016

At the beginning of July 2016, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. received allegations against one of its New Testament commentaries and immediately undertook a careful investigation. Eerdmans is now withdrawing that book and two others by the same author.

Eerdmans editors compared the text of The Letter to the Hebrews (Pillar New Testament Commentary, 2010) with various secondary sources and submitted findings to external experts for verification. Summing up the findings, Editor-in-chief James Ernest said, "Our own editors and our outside consultants agreed that what we found on the pages of this commentary runs afoul of commonly accepted standards with regard to the utilization and documentation of secondary sources. We agreed that the book could not be retained in print."

Examination of the same author's Letter to the Ephesians (PNTC, 1999) and Epistle to the Philippians (New International Greek Testament Commentary, 1991) found them less pervasively flawed but still untenable. 

The author, Peter T. O'Brien, was presented with the findings and provided the following response: "In the New Testament commentaries that I have written, although I have never deliberately misused the work of others, nevertheless I now see that my work processes at times have been faulty and have generated clear-cut, but unintentional, plagiarism. For this I apologize without reservation."

President and publisher Anita Eerdmans summed up the company's stance as follows: "Eerdmans is steadfastly committed to the highest ethical standards in academic and business practice, and we apologize to all who are negatively affected by this situation. Our Bible commentary series, among the best of their kind, are authored and edited by the field's top scholars. The strong measures we are taking in this case are meant to underscore our firm belief that our commentary program is, and must remain, solid."

Eerdmans is taking the following steps:

● Ceasing sales and pulp stock of all three volumes, placing them out of print.
● Offering credit to individuals and trade partners who have purchased the above three volumes. 
For detailed instructions on how to pursue this option, please write to commentarycredit@eerdmans.com.
● Discussing best practices for quality control with press editors, series editors, and authors.

Members of the media wishing to contact Eerdmans may send e-mail to publicity@eerdmans.com.

I don't think the statement from Eerdmans necessarily suggests that they won't revise them, especially the "less pervasively flawed" works.

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 17 2016 10:50 AM

Ben Amundgaard:

Hi all,

We're still working with Eerdmans to come up with a plan for anyone who does want to return the commentaries.

For those to don't want to return them, please know that we will not take your commentaries away from you. You own them. Smile

Thank you!

Thanks, Ben. Very clear and helpful clarification. It's good to make clear that what we own is safe even when it is no longer being sold.

I have personally found these two volumes very very helpful. I hope that they are edited to give proper attribution and re-released.

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 2934
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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 17 2016 10:50 AM

Ben Amundgaard:

Hi all,

We're still working with Eerdmans to come up with a plan for anyone who does want to return the commentaries.

For those to don't want to return them, please know that we will not take your commentaries away from you. You own them. Smile

Thank you!

Thanks, Ben. Very clear and helpful clarification. It's good to make clear that what we own is safe even when it is no longer being sold.

I have personally found these two volumes very very helpful. I hope that they are edited to give proper attribution and re-released.

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 3
Brad | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 17 2016 10:58 AM

This really would depend on the user agreement that you have to accept when installing the software that no one reads. I can't really comment on that since I didn't read it lol. With that said, I don't think Eerdman's can control what Logos does with those books once they are sold, though they might be able to prevent Logos' ability to restore those books (thereby meaning you should back them up manually to make certain). But since Logos is not going to remove them, then the software agreement doesn't really matter at this point.

Posts 2337
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 17 2016 10:28 PM

Reading all this reminds me of the little saying to consider carefully the consequences of being careless in one's work. I'm not sure he was careless, just not careful enough. 

Logos users get the luxury of having quotations properly footnoted. 

I do hope the books get updated and we get those updates. I also think Bruce would have just smiled knowing that his work had become part of the vocabulary of his student.

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 1143
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 17 2016 10:46 PM

mab:
I also think Bruce would have just smiled knowing that his work had become part of the vocabulary of his student.

Although it's avoidable, I think this is often precisely the root of cases like this. You read something in a book and catch onto a particularly apt phrase that communicates an idea powerfully. You repeat the same language in your lectures on the subject. Ten years later, you write it up in a book, totally forgetting that it didn't originate with you. Seven years after that, you get caught. We don't know the extent of this particular case--and the extent matters a great deal--but I can see how it could happen.

Posts 809
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 18 2016 8:17 AM

Another great reminder of the importance of knowing how to cite properly and where and when to cite.  I swear I study that Chicago/Turabian style book more than my actual text books!

I just don't believe this was intentional and hope it gets cleared up to everyone's satisfaction.  It doesn't change the fact that he is a godly man whose work is respected.

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 118
Jonathan Ray | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 18 2016 10:45 AM

mab:
I also think Bruce would have just smiled knowing that his work had become part of the vocabulary of his student.

Totally agree.

Posts 1501
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 18 2016 12:12 PM

Sean:

mab:
I also think Bruce would have just smiled knowing that his work had become part of the vocabulary of his student.

Although it's avoidable, I think this is often precisely the root of cases like this. You read something in a book and catch onto a particularly apt phrase that communicates an idea powerfully. You repeat the same language in your lectures on the subject. Ten years later, you write it up in a book, totally forgetting that it didn't originate with you. Seven years after that, you get caught. We don't know the extent of this particular case--and the extent matters a great deal--but I can see how it could happen.

Looking at some examples, I'm convinced Peter was just sloppy with his citations. Much of the "plagiarism" is practically verbatim - even over several sentences with Bruce's published work, this clearly isn't him using personal class notes or lecture material. This is him copying Bruce's work and slightly modifying it and then not citing it properly.    

Posts 228
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 18 2016 12:18 PM

Kevin D Williford:

Reflects poorly not only on O'Brien, but on D. A. Carson as well.

Everett Headley:

How would Carson have known this?

I have always understood that part of the editor's responsibility so to ensure that standards are met.

Posts 102
Andrew Malone | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 18 2016 5:03 PM

Sean:

... You read something in a book and catch onto a particularly apt phrase that communicates an idea powerfully. You repeat the same language in your lectures on the subject. Ten years later, you write it up in a book, totally forgetting that it didn't originate with you. ...

Josh:

... I'm convinced Peter was just sloppy with his citations. Much of the "plagiarism" is practically verbatim ... this clearly isn't him using personal class notes or lecture material. ...

Just to be sure that we haven't misunderstood Sean (or Peter O'Brien's process): as a student and a teacher, I agree with Sean's original suggestion. Teachers can readily find some good ideas. It's not always appropriate to outline your sources in an oral presentation, and it's thus possible to lose track of an idea's or quotation's origin.

Of course you ought to keep track of your sources, especially when you convert them to commercial print. No one's excusing that. But there is a plausible mechanism for how this may have come about.

Posts 762
David A Egolf | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 18 2016 5:04 PM

I tend to use Logos notes entries like clippings.  I copy the text of interest completely into the note file so that the note file can be read later without reference to the original text.  When one does this, if there is any chance of propagation of the content, then one should carefully annotate the copied text.  That takes several extra steps when you are on an iPad.

In this age of digital media it is quite easy to mix the material from others into one's own notes.

Posts 6736
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 18 2016 6:17 PM

I'm surprised none of his commentaries have something along these lines:

"All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced in any form without permission in writing from the publisher except in the case of brief quotations embodied in critical articles or reviews."

In fact, none of the PNTC volumes have this. All they say is they have used the Bible version with permission of Zondervan.

Posts 270
Kelvin Niblett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 18 2016 8:58 PM

On several occasions I have searched a quote or phrase I have saved in a working document to double check it's context and have found whole paragraphs verbatim in 2 or 3 different books with no references. Academic plagiarism is more common that you think, modern tools make it easier to find.

Posts 2831
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 18 2016 9:20 PM

Cynthia in Florida:

Another great reminder of the importance of knowing how to cite properly and where and when to cite.  I swear I study that Chicago/Turabian style book more than my actual text books!

I just don't believe this was intentional and hope it gets cleared up to everyone's satisfaction.  It doesn't change the fact that he is a godly man whose work is respected.

I completely agree.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

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