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Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 11:35 AM

Bill Moore:

You raise good points, Jan. One thing is fairly certain, LN is very attractive for a new user. I've been with Logos since L3.

Same here. Is started off with a Nelson eBible package for 10 pounds, and an NIV for an additional 10 pounds! Those were my "trial" products, which already totally convinced me back then, and caused me to delete all other Bible software to free up then-valuable space on my hdd :-)

Past IT Consultant. Past Mission Worker. Entrepreneur. Seminary Student (VIU).
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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 12:05 PM

Bill Moore:
Thanks, 'Bama, but I'm not following your meaning in these two sentences. If the integrated search library is continued without the LN subscription, why would you continue utilizing LN?

"To own, or not to own. That, is the question!" 

To rephrase my answer:

  1. I want to own books.
  2. I don't care about owning features.
  3. As long as I am still able to utilize Logos as a "integrated search library," I am ok with buying books and "renting" the features. If there comes a time, for whatever reason, I can no longer justify a LN subscription, at least I can utilize the software how I need it most. 

I like the LN membership program, and am glad they moved in that direction... as long as the software engine continues to be made free. 

macOS, iOS & iPadOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 109
Jeffrey Visser | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 12:14 PM

Jan Krohn:

Consider Microsoft Office...

Version 2010: you could buy and own the Pro Plus version with student discount for about $100, and install that on 2 computers.
Version 2013: students only got discount on the subscription model, so I had to retract to the developer version for $200, and could still install that on 2 computers.
Version 2016: no student discount, no developer version, and any version you own can only go on a single computer. The cheapest version to own is Home&Student - crippleware for $100 per computer.

Actually, I paid $79 for University version  of Office (available to all students so my Seminary counts) that gives me all upgrades for 4 years on 2 computers and 2 phones/tablets.  It is the same software that I am using for work, not a scaled down version.  At the end of 4 years, I get to keep the version I have, just no upgrades.  And they throw in the Office 365 web version. You just need to know where to look and what you need to qualify.

Posts 353
Virgil Buttram | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 1:51 PM

alabama24:

"To own, or not to own. That, is the question!" 

To rephrase my answer:

  1. I want to own books.
  2. I don't care about owning features.
  3. As long as I am still able to utilize Logos as a "integrated search library," I am ok with buying books and "renting" the features. If there comes a time, for whatever reason, I can no longer justify a LN subscription, at least I can utilize the software how I need it most. 

I like the LN membership program, and am glad they moved in that direction... as long as the software engine continues to be made free. 

That's... a very compelling perspective. Definitely food for thought.

Thanks!

Posts 1523
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 3:07 PM

Lynden Williams:

If you look at Adobe's website, you cannot purchase their software. It is either rent or find something else. I am not a fan of this model, but it is better for the company who does not want to support (Tech support) 5 year old software.

The advantage of SaaS is you are always up to date.

I'm not so sure that Adobe is a good analogy here. Users of Adobe's software don't own thousands of individually licensed resources, they own the product purely for the features (software).

I just hope Logos never goes out of business. I have way too much invested at this point.

Posts 286
James Hudson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 3:46 PM

Bill Moore:
it looks as though the software industry is moving towards a subscription model.

This is not true. The only regularly quoted examples  are Adobe and MS Office.

Most of the software innovation nowadays is in Mobile apps - which have a great model: Pay once, own software, lifetime free updates, in-app purchases if required. You can't rent a mobile app!

Interesting that some people have been comparing to the car market - how many rent cars for daily use?

Finally with LN, without owning after a few years of renting you will have paid more than us 'up-front-payment-owners' and still get caught in the trap of the necessity to keep paying or lose features. The marketing "access to all features" forever is only true if you keep on paying year after year after year. This is great for Logos (which is why they like it). Yes, I  understand that you get access to features ahead of release of next versions (hence the Now in the name), but this is almost like paying to beta test new features!

I REALLY hope that owners never lose out (BTW I'm fine with 2 models running concurrentlyt with people renting too if they want to or need to - some people rent houses and I'm fine with that too!).

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 3:50 PM

Jeffrey Visser:
At the end of 4 years, I get to keep the version I have, just no upgrades.

I don't think that is correct, but I fully admit I could be wrong. With my subscription, I have had popups appear that "updates were available" and documents would fail to open until the update downloaded and installed. The warning I received said that I needed a valid license (or something to that effect). 

If what you say is true, I wonder why this happens to me from time to time... perhaps I just have a different sort of license than you do. 

macOS, iOS & iPadOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 408
Erik | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 11:18 PM

Jan Krohn:

I'm holding on to ownership BECAUSE of that perception.

Maybe Logos 7 is the last version that we can buy and own. I wouldn't want to miss that opportunity. Maybe Logos 8 ownership option are gonna be massively unattractive.

Consider Microsoft Office...

Version 2010: you could buy and own the Pro Plus version with student discount for about $100, and install that on 2 computers.
Version 2013: students only got discount on the subscription model, so I had to retract to the developer version for $200, and could still install that on 2 computers.
Version 2016: no student discount, no developer version, and any version you own can only go on a single computer. The cheapest version to own is Home&Student - crippleware for $100 per computer.

Therefore, Microsoft can now support me on Office 2013 for the next 10 years, up to the last day when support officially ends. (Unless the Lord returns before that date.)

Adobe has already been named. There's a good avternative for graphics software: Corel. Those guys haven't even introduced a subscription model yet. Maybe that's the case because they're Canadian... Zip it!

The only kind of software that really justifies a subscription model in my opinion is anti virus software, because it constantly needs updates, updates, updates. If you're not on the latest and greatest for a single day, it can have very ugly consequences.

(I hope my boss is not gonna read this, because we only do subscriptions. Anyway, this is my personal opinion, and not my professional opinion. Big Smile)

Many schools are providing Office 2016 free to students. My seminary provided it for free and I am allowed multiple installs as long as I maintain active status. 

Posts 824
GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 12:58 AM

James Hudson:
Most of the software innovation nowadays is in Mobile apps - which have a great model: Pay once, own software, lifetime free updates, in-app purchases if required. You can't rent a mobile app!

But a lot of mobile apps will only work fully if you buy a subscription, and I've got at least two (Omnifocus and TextExpander) that charge for added-functionality upgrades. The "pay once, free upgrades for life" is not going to be commercially viable in the medium term and as the mobile app market matures, that will change. 

Pin addition, virtually any mobile app with ongoing content updates does require a subscription, and things like the full version of Hootsuite and many others require an ongoing subscription, so I think you can rent mobile apps. 


Running Logos 6 Platinum and Logos Now on Surface Pro 4, 8 GB RAM, 256GB SSD, i5

Posts 2910
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 1:12 AM

I've had one app, that at some point stopped receiving updates, and ceased working after the next Android upgrade. The manufacturer then offered a new version at another $10.

Mobile apps have just the same life span as normal software, and after the end of life, you can only continue using them for that long until OS updates cause them to break for good.

Past IT Consultant. Past Mission Worker. Entrepreneur. Seminary Student (VIU).
Christian Debate Forum --- Auferstanden! Blog

Posts 939
Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 4:48 AM

Jan Krohn:

I've had one app, that at some point stopped receiving updates, and ceased working after the next Android upgrade. The manufacturer then offered a new version at another $10.

Mobile apps have just the same life span as normal software, and after the end of life, you can only continue using them for that long until OS updates cause them to break for good.

Precisely. I had something similar to happen when I purchased an add-on to eliminate advertising. It was for "life." After a couple of years, the company switched to a new annual subscription model and gave us who had bought the previous app "for life" a "free" one-year subscription.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

Posts 1875
Paul-C | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 5:06 AM

Just another data point for those interested in what other users have done:

I've never been a Logos Now subscriber - so am not qualified to talk about the benefits of it. I'm not a Logos power-user by any stretch of the imagination, so I'm not likely to fully exploit all the new LN features as they're frequently released.

As I like the idea of being able to buy a licence to use the software indefinitely - and not subscribe - I opted to upgrade to Logos 7 through buying the Full Feature Set. My dynamic price with a new L7 library was $85. Assuming a 2-year upgrade cycle, I was able to benefit from L7 (admittedly without the other LN benefits...) for an average $42.50 / year (versus around $100 / year for LN) and be able to "own" the FFS. I was happy with that compromise.

Also, through "buying" now - and assuming Faithlife still offer a purchase option for Logos 8 when it materialises - I've hopefully locked in a lower upgrade price for next time too.

Posts 2910
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 5:07 AM

Your purchase was for life of the app, not for your life. That's always the meaning of "for life" in practice.

Past IT Consultant. Past Mission Worker. Entrepreneur. Seminary Student (VIU).
Christian Debate Forum --- Auferstanden! Blog

Posts 939
Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 6:01 AM

Paul-C:

Just another data point for those interested in what other users have done:

I've never been a Logos Now subscriber - so am not qualified to talk about the benefits of it. I'm not a Logos power-user by any stretch of the imagination, so I'm not likely to fully exploit all the new LN features as they're frequently released.

As I like the idea of being able to buy a licence to use the software indefinitely - and not subscribe - I opted to upgrade to Logos 7 through buying the Full Feature Set. My dynamic price with a new L7 library was $85. Assuming a 2-year upgrade cycle, I was able to benefit from L7 (admittedly without the other LN benefits...) for an average $42.50 / year (versus around $100 / year for LN) and be able to "own" the FFS. I was happy with that compromise.

Also, through "buying" now - and assuming Faithlife still offer a purchase option for Logos 8 when it materialises - I've hopefully locked in a lower upgrade price for next time too.

Good points. I don't need to add a large library at this stage (started with L3 Gold and kept increasing to L6 Diamond, so I'm considering L7 Gold). The FFS would cost $121, obviously less than two years of LN membership. And, too, I was thinking this morning that without any additional feature sets, Logos would probably satisfy my needs for years. It's a great program as it is. The problem is I need to learn how to use it better.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

Posts 939
Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 7:18 AM

Jan Krohn:

Your purchase was for life of the app, not for your life. That's always the meaning of "for life" in practice.

I agree, Jan, that this is what it means in practice. That is not the way consumers typically perceive it, and I suspect this is intentional.

Regardless, the point I was making is that things don't stay the same. Models change, and it makes our technological plans for down the road fairly speculative.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

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