Selective download of resources?

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Posts 149
Bob Schaefer | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Aug 29 2016 9:15 AM

I'm sorry if this has been addressed - I've searched the forums and the site for almost an hour, and am just going to give up and ask.

Does Logos 7 allow selective download of resources, like the app versions do? Or is it like Logos 6, requiring that every single resource be local on the machine?

I ask, because I've given up on running Logos 6 on my Surface Pro 3 64GB - there was never enough storage space left over to index my library, which is pointless. I have a huge SD card, but even the fastest SD cards are too slow for indexing to ever finish. So my Surface can't run Logos 6, but only because of the forced download and massive indexing requirements. 

Since there's no UWP app, the only Logos experience that sort of works on my Surface is to run an Android emulator and use the Android app.

I'm dearly hoping that Logos 7 addresses this limitation, and will allow me to download only the resources I actually need on my Surface. Please tell me this is the case finally!

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 29 2016 9:33 AM

Bob Schaefer:
Does Logos 7 allow selective download of resources, like the app versions do? Or is it like Logos 6, requiring that every single resource be local on the machine?

Sorry - this is unchanged from Logos 6 and all licensed resources are downloaded.

It is an issue Faithlife is aware of but I don't know when / if this capability will be provided.

Posts 149
Bob Schaefer | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 29 2016 10:42 AM

Thanks, Graham - I appreciate the quick answer.

But seriously, Faithlife! It's like you're actively trying to undermine Windows tablets! No UWP, not enough market share, no one wants it, blah blah blah. Fine. Whatever. We're used to not getting any developer love over here on the mobile Windows platform (although it still ticks us off).

But how hard is it to tweak the code of your flagship app so that users can choose which resources they want to download, the same as on your two mobile apps? So hard that you can't do it for any of the point updates once you know it's adversely affecting your users? So hard that you can't even manage it in a full version release that you'll make money off of?

No. No, it's not that hard. So I can only conclude it's not particularly important to you that anyone should be able to use your software on a Windows convertible, despite this being the device category that is actually growing. You've made absolutely no effort to address this part of your user base.

You know, back in the day I was so enamored of Logos Bible Software that I hosted a "Logos Tupperware party" at my church to show parishioners and other clergy what was so special about it and help them order their own libraries. Now I'm resorting to stupid workarounds just to maintain access to the thousands of dollars of investment I have in my own library. I am no longer enamored. I'm not even a happy customer.

This company has seriously lost its way.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 29 2016 11:14 AM

Bob Schaefer:
I ask, because I've given up on running Logos 6 on my Surface Pro 3 64GB - there was never enough storage space left over to index my library,

Personally have a MacBook Air (MBA) that does not have enough internal space on Solid State Disk (SSD) for my library so am using a fast USB 3 drive (128 GB) for resource file storage, which is symbolically linked into my Logos installation.  Internal SSD uses 16.8 GB for my Logos application files while USB drive has 66.0 GB of resource files.  Using internal storage for most of my Logos files avoids known USB and SD issues when writing to application database files.

Caveat: carrying around MBA provides opportunity for USB drive to be bumped so am learning to handle carefully. Thankful for USB still working after MBA quick exit from car to ground a couple times, including one where USB drive cover split up into several pieces.

Thread => Installing only a subset of resources has a similar discussion.

Logos wiki has => Install in different folder or drive

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 149
Bob Schaefer | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 29 2016 11:55 AM

Thanks for the suggestion, KS4J - I'm glad you found a solution that you can live with. (And that your drive ultimately survived its quick exit experience!)

I personally don't find tethering a USB drive to a tablet to be reasonable or workable, especially when it's not officially even supported. It's just another clever kludge that Logos users have cooked up to make the software kinda work on highly portable low storage devices. Surface-style devices are really just about the ideal form factor for digital Bible study, yet they are the most poorly supported by Faithlife.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 29 2016 11:49 PM

Bob Schaefer:
I personally don't find tethering a USB drive to a tablet to be reasonable or workable, especially when it's not officially even supported.

Alternative is a Surface Pro 3 physical hack so can upgrade internal storage => http://gladreview.com/how-to-upgrade-surface-pro-3-storage-to-1t-msata-ssd/ (photos show effort is challenging).

Another alternative is using the microSD under the kick stand for 128 GB storage expansion for resource files.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 1376
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 30 2016 2:44 AM

Bob Schaefer:
I ask, because I've given up on running Logos 6 on my Surface Pro 3 64GB - there was never enough storage space left over to index my library, which is pointless. I have a huge SD card, but even the fastest SD cards are too slow for indexing to ever finish. So my Surface can't run Logos 6, but only because of the forced download and massive indexing requirements. 

I am successfully running the full version of Logos 7 on an SD card on a tablet much inferior to yours. Initial indexing took more than 24 hours, but the performance of the program itself on the device is surprisingly adequate.

I do totally agree that there needs to be a better solution to this problem, but till then, you might consider giving this a try.

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 30 2016 3:07 AM

Bob Schaefer:

But seriously, Faithlife! It's like you're actively trying to undermine Windows tablets! No UWP, not enough market share, no one wants it, blah blah blah. Fine. Whatever. We're used to not getting any developer love over here on the mobile Windows platform (although it still ticks us off).

But how hard is it to tweak the code of your flagship app so that users can choose which resources they want to download, the same as on your two mobile apps? So hard that you can't do it for any of the point updates once you know it's adversely affecting your users? So hard that you can't even manage it in a full version release that you'll make money off of?

Well Bob - I am no coder but can you imagine the forums once selective downloading was allowed...

'I paid XXXX dollars for the Dopy's 97 volume commentary on D. Aft and I get no search results'

'Searching is done on the computer - you need to download the resource'

'I don't have enough memory to download it why can't the search be done in the cloud'

Chorus...

'Logos is taking everything to the cloud - they'll go bust - I want everything on my computer so that when armageddon comes I can do a morph search'

Horses for courses Bob. Do you remember this?

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

Posts 1376
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 30 2016 3:46 AM

Mike Binks:

Well Bob - I am no coder but can you imagine the forums once selective downloading was allowed...

'I paid XXXX dollars for the Dopy's 97 volume commentary on D. Aft and I get no search results'

'Searching is done on the computer - you need to download the resource'

'I don't have enough memory to download it why can't the search be done in the cloud'

In Libronix you could selectively download resources and updates. Reasons have been given as to why it's no longer an option, but they're not so persuasive.

Besides the situation described here, that's also problematic when you've just acquired a resource and want to access it but don't want to download the several hundred megabyte update that's being pushed through, especially when bugs in it are being reported in the forum.

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 30 2016 5:22 AM

Now, Mike ... you're showing your web-y colors.  Somehow you probably remember where your shoes are each morning ... no need to put them all next to your bed.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 9181
LogosEmployee

Bob Schaefer:
Now I'm resorting to stupid workarounds just to maintain access to the thousands of dollars of investment I have in my own library. I am no longer enamored. I'm not even a happy customer.

I'm sorry you're not able to have a good experience with Logos 7 on your Surface Pro 3. At the moment, I don't have any good news to share: the application still does require enough local disk space to download and index your entire library.

We are listening to customer feedback about this problem and know it's a significant problem for a lot of users. We have a case in our system to implement this enhancement. I've added a link to this thread to that case. We'll also update this suggestion if there's any news to share: https://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-6/suggestions/5751660-install-only-selected-resources-to-save-disk-space

Bob Schaefer:
But how hard is it to tweak the code of your flagship app

Not trying to make excuses, but it is actually a significant undertaking. The application was originally designed in the days of slow Internet connections and ever-growing HDDs when it seemed there would always be room to install the entire library (and who wouldn't want their entire library always available offline?); we did not anticipate that common hard drive sizes would shrink to 64GB or even 32GB. As a result, many parts of the application assume that all resources are always available (or are being downloaded and will be available very soon). Removing this restriction would require updating many different parts of the application.

(On the other hand, the mobile apps were designed from day one to assume that most resources would be online and only a handful would be downloaded locally. They're in the other boat and actually have problems if you choose to download your entire library for offline use.)

Posts 592
Brent Hoefling | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 30 2016 9:44 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

[clipped]

Not trying to make excuses, but it is actually a significant undertaking. The application was originally designed in the days of slow Internet connections and ever-growing HDDs when it seemed there would always be room to install the entire library (and who wouldn't want their entire library always available offline?); we did not anticipate that common hard drive sizes would shrink to 64GB or even 32GB. As a result, many parts of the application assume that all resources are always available (or are being downloaded and will be available very soon). Removing this restriction would require updating many different parts of the application.

[clipped]


I can see how this would be a challenge.  I have been working around it for years, and have become (unfortunately) accustomed to the speed degradation of having to point to another location.  troubleshooting has always been a challenge when linking to a different "drive".  Having USB3 tiney-fob "thumb drives" available in 128g, has been my "salvation", though.  On my current Tablet PC, the main storage SSD came split in two 64g partitions, and didn't allow me to change that very easily.  it did have a microSD port available, so there's that.  I am always shopping around for microSD card that is faster, and maybe  bigger.

I am just glad/ecstatic! that my "Bible" works. (Bible=tablet PC with full Logos Bible Software).  HOWEVER, unless hardware technology changes dramatically before L8 (yes, I said it), I will not be able to upgrade my collectors to the L8 next step, as I am peaking out storage/HDD/SSD space now.  Adding a significant number of resources (automatic downloading all) will be a problem.

Posts 353
Virgil Buttram | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 30 2016 9:51 AM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

The application was originally designed in the days of slow Internet connections and ever-growing HDDs when it seemed there would always be room to install the entire library (and who wouldn't want their entire library always available offline?); we did not anticipate that common hard drive sizes would shrink to 64GB or even 32GB. As a result, many parts of the application assume that all resources are always available (or are being downloaded and will be available very soon). Removing this restriction would require updating many different parts of the application.

(On the other hand, the mobile apps were designed from day one to assume that most resources would be online and only a handful would be downloaded locally. They're in the other boat and actually have problems if you choose to download your entire library for offline use.)

In that case, a Universal Windows App would be a fantastic offering.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 30 2016 3:19 PM

Bob Schaefer:
Surface-style devices are really just about the ideal form factor for digital Bible study, yet they are the most poorly supported by Faithlife.

Have you wondered why they have limited storage when large capacity (e.g. 500 GB) SSD's are quite affordable? Why you pay twice as much to upgrade a notebook HDD to an SSD? Why manufacturers make it so difficult to upgrade your HDD/SSD?

e.g. my last notebook provided easy access but the HDD had a proprietary shape and the rubber block on the board made it impossible to connect a regular SSD/HDD. I found a suitable cutting tool and laboriously cut away the difficult-to-access rubber block before the SSD could be suceesfully connected!

I've also owned a touch-screen tablet with a ridiculous 32 GB slow storage (solid state, but not an SSD) and had to run Logos from an even slower 32 GB micro SD card. Indexing was painful and the drive would occasionally get "lost" until it was re-inserted.

I blame the hardware manufacturers!

Dave
===

Windows 11 & Android 8

Posts 1376
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 30 2016 6:17 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
We are listening to customer feedback about this problem and know it's a significant problem for a lot of users.

Bradley, thanks for your input.

There are at least three ways this problem could resolved or at least mitigated for many users:

  1. As discussed here, allow selective downloading of resources;
  2. Develop a universal Windows app; or
  3. Hurry up and get the web app at least to a "late beta" stage where it's 90% usable.

Surely, all of these options present their own special challenges, but a least 1 of them should be doable. As a tablet user, that none of them seem to even be on the horizon is frustrating.

Posts 2246
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 30 2016 6:22 PM

Sean:
Develop a universal Windows app

I wish that they would re-enable the basic windows app that was available in the app store. 

It functioned well as a basic reader. I would like to install it on my tablet.

Posts 5918
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 30 2016 7:24 PM

Sean:

  1. Hurry up and get the web app at least to a "late beta" stage where it's 90% usable.

Surely, all of these options present their own special challenges, but a least 1 of them should be doable. As a tablet user, that none of them seem to even be on the horizon is frustrating.

Faithlife has definitely been doing a lot of work on the web app, and I imagine that they my have done more that hasn't yet been released yet.

Please use descriptive thread titles to attract helpful posts & not waste others' time. Thanks!

Posts 1376
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 30 2016 8:19 PM

SineNomine:
Faithlife has definitely been doing a lot of work on the web app, and I imagine that they my have done more that hasn't yet been released yet.

I'm sure a few of them are working on it, but at this point I've made two annual payments for LN, and the web app--initially my main reason for subscribing--is still very beta. Basic usability as a working tool and substitute for the desktop program is still lacking. Most new features don't really work when they're announced. Reading plans don't work (they do, or at least did, on biblia.com), and there's still no page numbering for citation needs. Clipping doesn't work for notes taking. Those are rather basic needs, and until they get met it's not really that helpful for a Windows tablet user. If I just want to read I'm better off doing it on my Android phone.

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