Suggestion: Easy Mode Layout - Call it "Where Am I in The Bible?

I suggest returning to the most basic Logos functionality - a view, layout, interactive, or already-customized-passage-guide that opens all your atlases, locates biblical place information and maps, and Biblical People that is immediately available on from the Start Menu with whatever default Bible you are using too. In theory, clicking on a biblical, person or place would then open up Factbook.

This is what I consider revamping Logos from the ground up to make it accessible and useable from the Start Menu without extensive reprogramming.

...and by the way I tried my own passage guide tweak and it presented me nothing from my library atlases and I think the Bible Explorer guide needs to be reworked, revamped, made prominent from the menu and start screen. I think it is intended to do what we I am suggesting but is imho a great attempt but still in need of improvement.

In fact, the whole menu needs rework. I am confused between guides, interactives and passage tools. Seriously this is not just a gripe but an honest assessment. You have some great tools and ideas but need to seriously start from scratch and consider someone in a Bible study just trying to follow along with some maps, pronunciation guides, etc...a basic view at least. Explorer almost gets it right but needs to be scrapped and reworked imho.

Blessings and thanks,

Joshua in Rhode Island

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Graham Criddle

that is immediately available on from the Start Menu with whatever default Bible you are using too.

Can I suggest we leave the question as to whether this can be invoked from the Start Menu until we have worked through how to provide the information you are looking for?

I suggest returning to the most basic Logos functionality - a view, layout, interactive, or already-customized-passage-guide that opens all your atlases, locates biblical place information and maps, and Biblical People

I assume - but it would be good to clarify - that you want "relevant" atlases etc, not all of them.

In theory, clicking on a biblical, person or place would then open up Factbook

Agreed

This is what I consider revamping Logos from the ground up to make it accessible and useable from the Start Menu without extensive reprogramming.

I see it more as using the functionality that is already present - let me explain.

In the layout below I have three main elements - a Bible, a Customised Guide and the Explorer Tool. They are all linked into Linkset A

Both the Guide and the Explorer Tool show Places & People relevant to the passage and clicking on the entries opens the relevant Tool / Resource (Factbook etc)

For what you are specifically requesting the Explorer Tool should be sufficient, the Guide gives more information such as Family Trees etc.

Changing the reference in the Bible updates the Guide and Explorer Tool

Please confirm if this is the sort of functionality you are looking for or, if not, specifically what it is not providing.

Once we have, hopefully, agreed on functionality we can think about methods of invoking it.

You have some great tools and ideas but need to seriously start from scratch and consider someone in a Bible study just trying to follow along with some maps, pronunciation guides, etc...a basic view at least.

One of the issues is that the "basic view" you are describing here may differ significantly from the basic view that someone else might require which is why having the flexibility Logos provides is of real value.

EastTN

... I am confused between guides, interactives and passage tools ...

This is something that has puzzled me for a long time about the arrangement of the Logos user interface. Some aspects of the interface appear to be organized based on the underlying technology used - for instance, "guides" versus "tools". Some aspects are organized based on the type of information involved, or what the user is trying to accomplish - so, under "tools" we have "reference", "passage" and "lookup". I understand that the technical underpinnings are fundamentally different, but it's not intuitively obvious from a user point of view why the "passage guide" should be under "guides", and not under "tools/passage". Similarly, it's not obvious why the "timeline" should be under "tools/reference", but "Bible people visual timelines" should be under "tools/interactive media". You can go on and on. "Atlas" is under "tools/reference" - but the "before and after Biblical sites" is under "tools/interactive media". And why is "Media" under "tools/utilities" while "interactive media" have their own section under "tools"? Why aren't the "text converter" and "weights and measures converter" under "tools/utilities"?

It feels to me like the interface is organized from the programmer's point of view from the inside looking out, rather than the user's point of view on the outside looking in. It works, it's incredibly powerful, and I'm getting used to it. But it's odd.

JoshInRI

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/862601#Comment_862601

Graham and East, thanks for responding in here to my suggestions and sometimes frustrated everyday use of Logos. Yes Graham you are directly getting at what I have suggested, need, or want. Admittedly my language is not precise and programmers love that sort of thing rather than "rework it all" or "start over".

East has hit upon something solid and valid. I really think revamping the software in a mode that is meant for the common laymen (sorry NOT a programmer or someone willing to nuance and finesse and well...program Logos) is necessary still.

It is as simple as this imho: Hold a Windows Surface Pro Tablet in your hands and imagine attending a roundtable discussion or Bible Study slowly going through Isaiah, for example. It should be easy to immediately make use of atlas, map, pronunciation guide and one Bible - a simplified layout that works maybe by asking some basic questions initially about one's library or making suggestions from it - or better yet providing a core library with Faithlife Bible and maps that opens up and tracks with you as you go.

I don't want to have customize a layout and then do even more "specialized" programming using Logos. I want to make immediate quick and easy use of its powerful features in a way that makes me an everyone around me ask or exclaim "Wow, can I see that?...Where can I get my own?, What software is that? Is it really that simple?"

Imagine it being your turn to read a passage of Scripture aloud and pointing to a word and knowing precisely how to say the word in English (if its possible) or having Logos say it aloud for you (just by tapping the word even!). It is embarrassing to have your turn come up and have all these resources and no simple method of using them effectively and instantly every time in a common small group Bible study. I have had always had to say "It is ok to skip my turn maybe it will work when you come around again".

Granted Windows lookups, wifi connectivity, user ability all figure in to the picture here as well but I continue to believe that Logos can be a tool that is faster and more efficient than say YouVersion on Android that I defer and default to instead of Logos which takes forever to use well/properly.

Developers and others - should any be reading this - that is your competition. YouVersion Bible App. Logos is far richer and better and needs to work even more effectively imho!!!

To date it has not and with each iteration I pray it will. God bless all your efforts as I know they are considerable, tedious, and exhausting.

I am not just a seminarian and Bible student, I attend church with a phone and/or tablet and I want to use Logos quickly and efficiently NOT abandon it for a simple faster internet lookup or say to myself "Forget it Logos....I will just use YOUVersion...it works better and faster for what i need right now.

As I write this I often feel as if I am communicating to someone who felt the Bible should not be translated into everyday English and should have been left in Latin (for example). I would have said back then and now:

"make it simpler, easier to understand, and more will read it and take it to heart, applying it to their lives and in the end God will be glorified too".

Ask those who created the 7.x Quickstart Layouts to work overtime and use their noggins for they were all on to something there.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/862606#Comment_862606

It is as simple as this imho: Hold a Windows Surface Pro Tablet in your hands and imagine attending a roundtable discussion or Bible Study slowly going through Isaiah, for example. It should be easy to immediately make use of atlas, map, pronunciation guide and one Bible - a simplified layout that works maybe by asking some basic questions initially about one's library or making suggestions from it - or better yet providing a core library with Faithlife Bible and maps that opens up and tracks with you as you go.

I don't want to have customize a layout and then do even more "specialized" programming using Logos. I want to make immediate quick and easy use of its powerful features in a way that makes me and everyone around me ask or exclaim "Wow, can I see that?...Where can I get my own?, What software is that? Is it really that simple?"

Sorry Josh but I don't think you are going to get anything much more simple than the solution that Graham is pointing at. Why?

Not everyone has the same interests as what they want immediate access to in a roundtable discussion - neither maps nor pronunciation are what I need in that situation - I need genealogies and events that occurred in a particular place. One has to build the layout that meets your needs with your choice of references.
Even when they need the same information, which they want to access when may differ. One must click or mouse over or swipe to indicate which piece of information you want right now.

So, yes, there are a number of things that can be easier or clearer or built in as an option. But many of those things will increase the amount of setup required. So to move towards what you persistently want (and I mean persistent as a compliment), what you need to do is look at Graham's options and be very specific about what needs to be changed and to carefully remember that those changes cannot be at the expense of other users. When I share your concerns because I am working with a group with many new to Logos, what I find to be what would help most would be the ability to share layouts. Then the leader of the roundtable can set up a layout with resources appropriate to that particular groups and the experienced users can modify it. This would help in a parish setting but not in the case of a lone user.

I want to make immediate quick and easy use of its powerful features in a way that makes me an everyone around me ask or exclaim "Wow, can I see that?...Where can I get my own?, What software is that? Is it really that simple?"

This is what I already get especially with the Liturgy and Catholic Topics sections of the Passage Guide.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/862606#Comment_862606

I don't want to have customize a layout and then do even more "specialized" programming using Logos.

Why don't you want to customize a layout for this?

In the screenshots I posted earlier I had just opened the resources / tools I wanted to satisfy my understanding of your requirements. And then using the Layouts menu I can save this to be used whenever I want. Or by saving this layout as one of the Quickstart layouts I can get it to open from the HomePage.

As far as I can see this is selection and customization not specialized programming.

What am I missing?

As I write this I often feel as if I am communicating to someone who felt the Bible should not be translated into everyday English and should have been left in Latin (for example).

I really don't understand this characterisation

Ask those who created the 7.x Quickstart Layouts to work overtime and use their noggins for they were all on to something there.

Absolutely - and they could be used to address the requirements you outlined in your first post in this thread

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/858887#Comment_858887

In the layout below I have three main elements - a Bible, a Customised Guide and the Explorer Tool. They are all linked into Linkset A

Thanks [:D] Created similar layout with Linkset A for Bible and Custom Guide with Explorer set to Follow, which has replaced Passage Study in my Quick Start Layout (replaced Commentary with Custom Guide)

For screen shot, opened Guide template to show sections selected: Cultural Concepts, Biblical, and Atlas

For navigation, changing verses in Custom Guide allows pericope range to be selected in drop down list:

Keep Smiling [:)]

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

...and by the way I tried my own passage guide tweak and it presented me nothing from my library atlases

What was the Bible passage ?

If a Biblical place is not mentioned in the passage:e.g. John 17:1-26, then Biblical Places and Atlas have no results.

Place context for John 17 is between leaving upper room in John 14:31 and crossing Kidron valley in John 18:1 so somewhere in Jerusalem.

Keep Smiling [:)]

JoshInRI

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/862649#Comment_862649

Graham and others...thanks for your gracious and informative (even uplifting) replies. The sharing of layouts and the continued simplification and revising of the "Quick Layouts" imho is a huge selling and turning point for revamping and improving the Logos Bible software.

I cannot imagine it will be easy and some may argue it may not be necessary - but I think it is. I liken it to watching a newcomer enter a church:

Are you able to observe where their eyes go? What questions do they ask? Do they get solid friendly replies or are they ignored?

Encourage them to share their perspective. It is a gift for and to those who attend every week and may not even see the cobwebs in the ceiling corners anymore or may even be unaccustomed to anyone asking where the bathroom is.

I believe if Logos could take a poll and simply ask these questions - they might be surprised by the answer:

As you make use of Logos software, do you sometimes feel like you need to be a computer programmer to do the simplest of tasks?
Is the Logos menu system or front page daunting in any way to you?

Even as a graduate student and computer knowledgeable Bible software user - I answer yes to both questions.

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/862701#Comment_862701

As you make use of Logos software, do you sometimes feel like you need to be a computer programmer to do the simplest of tasks?

No. As a computer programmer, I can say that using Logos is nothing like programming. Rather, Logos does all the heavy lifting, and makes it faster and easier to do things that would take us much longer on our own.

Is the Logos menu system or front page daunting in any way to you?

It was until I watched the Quick Start videos that came with Logos, and learned my way around different parts of the program. Training helps you get past the point on the learning curve where the program becomes less daunting and more familiar.

I think anything new or different can be daunting, until you become familiar with it, but Faithlife provides plenty of free opportunities, such as the 10-day Challenge, and (Quick Start and Logos Pro) videos to learn more about how to accomplish things in Logos.

JoshInRI

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/862716#Comment_862716

Petah...another excellent reply...thanks.

I mean this in a lighthearted way but your response could equal:

Take a computer programming course and don't have an expectation that simple things can be done quickly and efficiently within Logos without challenging yourself for 10 days or consulting a video first.

Humor aside - I agree the Helps are there and I really do value your reply too [:D]

Kevin Byford (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/862731#Comment_862731

Hi Joshua,

Graham's layout solution requires only a few mouse clicks and so I'm truly puzzled at where the difficulty lies. Could you describe the layout creation steps you've taken so far and at what point you ran into a problem (or, have you tried yet)?

I'm hoping you are at least willing to give us the opportunity to help you but you also have to be a willing participant. I don't believe a complete-from-the-ground-up-rewrite of Logos is going to happen before your next Bible Study so I'm hoping that as a workaround you could please follow Graham's lead and open three panels, link them, and then save it as a layout. This is not programming and is quite easy if you try - but impossible if you don't try. If you get stuck we are here to help.

Most things in life take some practice to get good at so you might consider taking (say) 30 minutes a day to practice creating layouts. Once you have created a layout that you find useful, you might consider practicing using that layout with your friends in a mock Bible Study setting to become more familiar with the expected results. This should (hopefully) help make you feel less embarrassed during your Bible Study meetings.

Also, if you could discover beforehand the passages and/or topics in next week's Bible Study you would have some time to prepare and possibly reduce the stress it seems you might be experiencing. I hope this helps.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/862701#Comment_862701

As you make use of Logos software, do you sometimes feel like you need to be a computer programmer to do the simplest of tasks?

Is the Logos menu system or front page daunting in any way to you?

Even as a graduate student and computer knowledgeable Bible software user - I answer yes to both questions.

Next part of survey asks: if yes, please elaborate, ideally with examples.

What simple tasks feel like programming skills are needed ?

What causes eyes to roll ? feels hard to do ?

What's daunting or distracting ?

Answering yes to both questions implies usability issue(s), but lacks actionable insight about what could be improved.

"Passage Study" opens to last verse location in highest prioritized Bible so suggestion for "Where Am I in The Bible" Easy Mode Layout is "Passage Study" quick start layout. Thankful can replace Commentary Tab with Custom Guide for custom "Passage Study" quick start.

Thankful for program setting option to open last layout used; personally prefer opening to a blank layout after experiencing some beta crashes with saved layout. Thankful for Beta forum to discuss program bugs and new features with Faithlife developers.

Difficult to use = dream of notification while Collection Cache is being refreshed OR Visual Filters being applied in resource. Annoying wait is Right Click not populating while waiting for Visual Filter highlighting in a resource OR Collection Cache refresh to complete.

Microsoft Word has a substantially more complex set of Menus and Options. Both Logos and Word have learning curves to becoming proficient users. Word tends to change location of items between releases: e.g. vertical drop down menus transformed to horizontal tool bars. Logos wiki => Getting Started with Logos followed a Logos 4 forum discussion about what would help new users, which still has useful tips. Thankful for Logos interface being substantially the same in Logos 4, 5, 6, and 7 with 7 having some more Documents, Guides, and Tools than earlier versions.

Syntax Search can be difficult to graphically setup pattern(s) for matching; have experienced a number of Syntax Searches returning zero (0) results since graphical setup needed tweaking. Syntax Search tends to need a lot of trial and error.

One lesson learned from writing many computer programs is using descriptive names. For example, my custom guide for "Passage Study" is simply named "Cultural Biblical Atlas" because the sections are Cultural Concepts, Biblical Places, Atlas, Biblical Events, Biblical People, Biblical Things, & Biblical Theology.

Creating a Custom Guide can feel a bit like programming since have to click on section to add to Guide template plus can drag a section to desired order (personally modified several times to complement Explorer). Another "programming" lesson learned is try it, if not like, then change it (or delete it and start over).

FYI: Computers are stupid; they only do what they are told and they do exactly what they were told (very, very fast).

Keep Smiling [:)]