An Open Letter to Bob Pritchett

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steve clark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 14 2010 7:03 PM

Dan DeVilder:
And a note to the Wiki-keepers: ever thought about collating Bob's responses on these issues and archiving them?

Dan,

You can click on the number under Bob's picture. It will take you to a complete list of all posts that he has replied to. It seems like this would be redundant to the forums tool if a wiki page was built. Perhaps others might want to take this on???

My main work on the wiki has been to aid users in learning how to use L4.

 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 14 2010 7:31 PM

steve clark:

Dan DeVilder:
And a note to the Wiki-keepers: ever thought about collating Bob's responses on these issues and archiving them?

Dan,

You can click on the number under Bob's picture. It will take you to a complete list of all posts that he has replied to. It seems like this would be redundant to the forums tool if a wiki page was built. Perhaps others might want to take this on???

My main work on the wiki has been to aid users in learning how to use L4.

 

oh heck yeah, you are totally right.  I never knew you could do what you described.  that would work for the most part.

 

What would be fun is putting together the 'Quotable Bob.'  Big Smile   or maybe not.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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steve clark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 14 2010 7:38 PM

Dan DeVilder:
What would be fun is putting together the 'Quotable Bob.'  Big Smile   or maybe not.

Yes, i learn new things around here too Smile (even tho i'm an old dog now)

i kinda hesitate thinking about this. Bob is a brave soul. Our words just come and go. But user might try to use Bob's words against him (e.g. hold his feet to the fire on something perceived as a promised feature). Guess he is much better with his words than i.

 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 14 2010 8:13 PM

steve clark:

Dan DeVilder:
What would be fun is putting together the 'Quotable Bob.'  Big Smile   or maybe not.

Yes, i learn new things around here too Smile (even tho i'm an old dog now)

i kinda hesitate thinking about this. Bob is a brave soul. Our words just come and go. But user might try to use Bob's words against him (e.g. hold his feet to the fire on something perceived as a promised feature). Guess he is much better with his words than i.

 

yeah, if I were him, ---well, if I were him, Logos would suck, but other than that . . . i wouldn't want my quotes collated either.  wait, but if they are searchable?   Maybe they could add a CBV (copy bob . . . )  Okay.  Time for bed.  DST catching up with me.Sleep

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Anonymous | | Replied: Sun, Mar 14 2010 8:24 PM

Bob, Let's say for the sake of argument that you implemented 100% of Word 2010 as the note facility in Logos. That would not answer my olesire for better notes. What I want is not fancy formatting and authoring tools. The thing I'm wanting is something that lets me organize and analyze large amounts of data.

The ideal solution for me would be integration with One Note (I use a tablet, so inking is a critical capability). Integration wouldn't even be that complicated. It basically involves four enhancements. (1) One Note has the ability to create URLs into the notes. We should be able to insert annotations into resources so that clicking on the note icon takes us directly to One Note. (2) We need better support for creating-links into Logos so that we can paste a link into One Note in one step. Currently we have to type or paste a title, copy the URL and then create a link in One Note. (3) Copy and Paste needs to work. Currently, the formatting gets stripped or screwed up.Since a lot of content is expressed through format, this is simply unacceptable. Further, the bibliographic reference pasted with the text should include a proper link back to Logos. (4) Finally searching should be integrated between the two applications.

Now what is so great about One Note? I can't begin to list everything here. Some highlights are: (1) Hierarchical organization. (2) Ease of moving clips around in two dimensions and annotate them with highlighting, colored text, drawing lines, etc. (3) Ability to incorporate clips from other sources, as well as pictures. (4) Inking.

 

My name is Adam. I work at Faithlife with the software teams responsible for the Logos desktop and web apps.

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Posts 492
R. Mansfield | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 14 2010 8:31 PM

But there's no version of OneNote on the Mac (outside of Mac Word's notebook layout which is much less capable than OneNote). Thus, the idea of OneNote integration becomes a violation of Logos' desire for feature parity across platforms.

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Ron | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 14 2010 8:49 PM

Bob Pritchett:
Could we index your Word documents from a particular directory and return them as part of search results? Write a feature that inserts a note header into a Word document, and another that sorts and organizes the Word document through scripting?

Make it indexing of OneNote documents instead of Word and I'd be very happy with that solution...but I'm not one of the ones asking for more robust note-taking features, so I'm not sure how much my opinion counts for. Stick out tongue

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 14 2010 8:57 PM

Jeffrey Glen Jackson:
Now what is so great about One Note?

What's so wrong with One Note for some of us (and I do use a similar product for web management)? No canonical order, no search to appear in "My Content", ... you get the picture. As for your positives:

  • hierarchical organization is not something I need; to the extent I need it Logos suffices
  • moving clips around in two dimensions; Logos allows me to move them around in a multi-dimensional web
  • highlighting, colored text, drawing lines; these are functions I can easily live without if I can link a note to a graphic
  • ability to include clips from other sources - this I do in Logos; pictures as well until L4 - a working link to graphics would be acceptable
  • linking - Logos should be doing this well; there are still some rough spots but it is clear that general linkage is intended

So why do I need One Note? I shouldn't and I don't when Logos has the links working. So why is Logos so unworkable for me in this one area? [Note: In general I'm a strong supporter of L4 which has greatly enhanced usefulness to me most notably because of my use of multiple canons in my basic translations]

  • personal frustration at loss of note files from L3 that have embedded graphics
  • the inability to collapse notes
  • the lack of a TOC
  • not knowing if the Sentence Diagrammer can  compensate for some of Note's lost capabilities
  • not knowing when and how the linkage will work ... some is in 4.0b ... some appears to still be in the "its coming category"
  • bugs in the highlighting/positioning for a search
  • bugs in formatting that doesn't work (subscript/superscript)
  • bugs in certain copy & pastes that lose formatting

Translation: I believe that a major difficulty in finding a workable solution comes out of the frustration of nearly half a year with L4's original limitations on notes. Frustration, at least for me, can inhibit my ability to find workable alternatives.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 15 2010 7:38 AM

Matthew C Jones:

My question is, if you already have all these features with a competing product, Does Logos really need to divert programming resources to duplicate that capability? Or should Logos keep doing what only Logos can do?

Matthew, maybe yes, maybe no...

I'd settle for some kind of integration between L4 and the major word processors...instead of changing the notes...if I could tag a passage with a marker that pointed to a note in OneNote, hyperlinked and fully integrated...I'd be happy.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 8660
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 15 2010 7:59 AM

Robert,

Your suggestion of a link btwn L4 and a word processor (as long as it was not limited to MS word) is a good idea.  I personally would love creating a note that loaded my Word processor (OpenOffice.org) with the current reference as the document title. 

 

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 15 2010 10:49 AM

I would like to see the Mac version support Linkbacks in notes (http://www.linkbackproject.org/).

This would allow some integration with a wide variety of note taking software available on the Mac (Devonthink, Circus Ponies Notebook, VoodooPad, OmniOutliner, Bookends, Scrivener, etc.).

That way you could take advantage of all of the functionality of a dedicated note taking system and still link the notes to references in Logos.

Is there something similar to Linkbacks for Windows?

Posts 769
Jerry Bush | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 15 2010 11:35 AM

Dan DeVilder:

a little S. Illinois shout out, Jerry!  Home of the white squirrels!  Been there a few times, my mother in law was raised there.  My wife is from Mt. Carmel.  I grew up as a pk further south, in Hurst (can you locate it??).

 

Hi Dan -

Yes, I know about where Hurst is. I went to school in Carbondale, and I think Hurst is near Marion, sort of. Northeast, I think. I know it is a very small town.

Yup, this is where we have the white squirrels; our only claim to fame. I have several friends in Mt. Carmel. There is a Great Banquet located there. Very similar to Walk To Emmaus, Cursillo, and others.

Blessings to ya!

Jerry

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 15 2010 2:41 PM

Jerry Bush:
There is a Great Banquet located there. Very similar to Walk To Emmaus, Cursillo, and others.

 

i don't want to hijack this thread, but I would like to find out more about the GB you mentioned.  I have never heard of it, but I have the other two.  if you don't mind, my email is dustandbreath (AT) sbcglobal (DOT) net

Yup, Carbondale is really close to Hurst, just a few miles from "DeSoto"  Strip-mining country. 

Thank you, and blessings back to you!


Dan

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 2853
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 15 2010 2:51 PM

I would bet that if the notes feature behaved exactly as it does now, just more efficiently (faster) then it would be OK for the vast majority of Logos users. For those who want/need more, the PBB will be an answer I suspect.

For the DominicM who posted the screen shot of the free Bible app, would you mind contacting me off list to tell me what software that is? k a p u r c e l l AT gmail.com without the spaces.

To respond to Bob's comments about the platforms for notes ...

1. I appreciate that you have a difficult task making things work/look the same on Mac and Windows. I selfishly wish you wouldn't bother, but I understand the desire to do so. So your reply helped me get why you are making some of the choices I saw as foolish. One example is the use of WPF. If that is really the only way to make a cross platform interface on the Windows side, then I understand.

2. I am glad you are not trying to recreate a Word Processor. If you could simply give those who want that much formatting power some insight as to whether this will be possible with the promised new version of PBB that might go a long way towards easing concerns.

I would suggest that if #2 is not going to happen, that you do look at interfacing with something like Word or OneNote or both.

Posts 68
Gregory S. MacBeth | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2010 7:23 AM

Hello,

I figured I would jump in and give my 2 cents.  As an employee, of a major software company for the last 12 years where I worked in support, wrote code and managed, I can say that  the job Logos is doing is very good.  Although I do feel the product seems to be lacking expected functionality that is being requested in this thread.

in reading through this thread, I can say the feature list requested is a VERY long and expensive list.  In today's economy, I feel confident in sharing that in just reading over the list, all I could see was "multiple" millions of dollars given how I suspect this product is architect ed.  End users rarely understand how much it costs to design, build, test, deploy and maintain software.  

On the other hand, I can say that Mr Pritchett's goal of interoperability and software coding is most likely costing his company a lot of money and generating a lot of frustration.  At best Macs represent 12 percent of the computer population.  Baring their being some sort of odd anomaly in the Logo's population where Mac has a greater than 12 percent penetration, this is a costly decision.  From a purely business perspective, it is hard to justify making decisions for 12 percent of the user base.  For that matter, it is hard to even justify a product for a 12 percent need even if you were to go all grandiose and suggest Mac could increase its penetration  to 20 percent.

Another interesting thing I saw in the response was concern about relying on 3rd party software.  My response would be to ask what is Logos business.  Is it writing code or making Bible Library software.  I would think the answer would be the latter.  In using Logos, I imagine that you are by far writing more code than what you should be doing.  It is shocking that you would be concerned about writing textbox control code.

I would suggest migrating to a single platform on .NET using C# where you can focus on your business rather than writing control code.  By doing this, you could focus upon building a product that allows you to focus more on the customer need rather than being challenged and hung up by portability and core coding of controls.  In doing this you could take Logos in sorts of directions from being just a library product to being a Theologians Desktop.

While Logos is without doubt the best product on the market today, it is very easy and realistic that an existing competitor or startup could write a new product quickly.  After all, the amount of functionality actually given in the current product is pretty small consisting of Search API, Windows API, SmartHost, and DB operations.  Furthermore, as the industry progresses and customers use other software that provides better interoperability (eg. Cut & Paste) and nice rich text functionality it is going to be expected that Logos provide this functionality as well.  At present, just simple cut and paste is a struggle if you want formatting to not be affected.  I can't imagine the cost of adding all the rich functionality given by .NET manually to your existing code base.  Talk about some real $$$$.  Finally, .NET would allow for easier add in functionality that could be used to generate new functionality and product interest.

That said, this product is still the best on the block at this time.

Thats just my 2 cents . . .

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2010 10:37 AM

Gregory S. MacBeth:
migrating to a single platform on .NET

Good synopsis. But I think the .NET zombies are already roaming the halls at Logos HQ. Indifferent

I say this with no disrespect. (I jumped ship when Microsoft went .NET) For whatever reason, that hasn't been revealed to me, BobP believes he needs to address the Mac market. If it were me, I'd just put the Macs out of their misery. 

(Uh oh, Gotta run. I see a crowd of surfer dudes picking up rocks.)

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Anonymous | | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2010 11:09 AM

Matthew C Jones:

I say this with no disrespect. (I jumped ship when Microsoft went .NET) For whatever reason, that hasn't been revealed to me, BobP believes he needs to address the Mac market. If it were me, I'd just put the Macs out of their misery. 

I agree.  Most Mac users already run (what is it called?) parallels(?), that virtual machine thing with Windows installed.  So supporting Mac natively just seems mostly a waste of time and effort to me.

My name is Adam. I work at Faithlife with the software teams responsible for the Logos desktop and web apps.

Message me on Faithlife.com >>

Posts 13419
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2010 12:24 PM

Jeffrey Glen Jackson:

So supporting Mac natively just seems mostly a waste of time and effort to me.

Once the Logos engine is available natively on a Mac, there's a whole bunch of extra people to buy resources who wouldn't before (so more prepubs will get through the door, and Community Pricing will be lower). Because Logos makes its money on resources (which are by definition cross-platform), I think there's a stronger case for developing a cross-platform solution than there would be for other applications. And don't forget that PDFs became standard at least in part because they could be read on any platform. Publishers worth their salt will not be willing to sign exclusive contracts with software that is only available on one platform. So having a Mac option could be advantageous to us all.

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2010 2:58 PM

Jeffrey Glen Jackson:
I agree.  Most Mac users already run (what is it called?) parallels(?), that virtual machine thing with Windows installed.  So supporting Mac natively just seems mostly a waste of time and effort to me.

Hmmm.....Good thing these types of decisions aren't up to you, based on reasoning like this, Logos would be in a world of hurt. Trouble is, I can't tell if your comment had it's genesis out of humor or ignorance, so I will leave it there.

 

 

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2010 3:00 PM

Jeffrey Glen Jackson:
Most Mac users already run (what is it called?) parallels(?), that virtual machine thing with Windows installed.  So supporting Mac natively just seems mostly a waste of time and effort to me.

Most, if not all, Mac users who are running Windows under a virtual machine do not see that as a long term solution. There are also a high percentage of Mac users who are using L4 Mac Alpha who have no intention of ever using Windows. 

It amazes me how many Windows bigots think that Bob Pritchett is such a poor business man that he would undertake development of a Mac version of Logos without researching the potential market. By your logic, Microsoft, Adobe, Intuit and a host of other companies are also courting bankruptcy by continuing to develop products for the Mac.

I don't mind a few friendly platform jabs, but people who pontificate from ignorance irritate me.

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