So...what would make you buy more books from Logos?

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This post has 178 Replies | 8 Followers

Posts 2022
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 7:34 PM

Bradley, I am aware that Libronix was a platform...that was available for other companies to use until L4.  That means that until L4, companies were able to produce resources for the platform.  That is what hooked me into LOGOS instead of Bible Companion (which used STEP).

David, you are correct that quality issues were the reason Libronix was abandoned. But those same quality issues we now have again in L7 (Vysro for example). 

Posts 1578
Kenute P. Curry | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 7:47 PM

Agreed Mark Yes

Posts 1069
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 9:06 PM

Denise:

William ... no need to unencrypt what you own .... it's written in modern english.  The idea one need not respect other's property seems to be a very recent theology, without benefit of the Divine.

The problem we're faced is a little more nuanced if FL did go under. Sure, Logos would keep working, for a while, and we'd be free to export our books....100 slow pages at a time. But eventually the program wouldn't work with future OSes, so you'd have to maintain a VM to keep Logos going, but it would all have to be set up before FL turned the authentication servers off, because you need at least one online login before the offline mode works. The whole thing grows more fragile as time goes on.

If you can manage the encryption and book data structures, then you can port your resources to any system you need. No page restrictions. No risk of getting locked out. And it would all be handled programmatically (I can't tell you how allergic I am to doing things "manually" on a computer). I've got over 13k resources, and I would not want to go through them all to find what I want.

Posts 15805
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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 13 2016 10:37 PM

William Gabriel:
But eventually the program wouldn't work with future OSes, so you'd have to maintain a VM to keep Logos going, but it would all have to be set up before FL turned the authentication servers off, because you need at least one online login before the offline mode works.

Thankful can clone an installation for offline use without needing connection to Faithlife server(s).

Depends on what happens as to available options.

Thankful for a CEO who wants Faithlife Corporation to be viable for many, many years.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 2902
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 14 2016 6:12 AM

Denise:
increased customer confusion, and frustration

Kevin Byford (Faithlife):

Thanks Denise,

I don't see a problem here that Faithlife can fix. Please post again if an actual issue arises. 

And I suspect this attitude (it's not an 'actual issue' if we can't fix it) could be added to the growing list of reasons the company doesn't get it, as well.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 1073
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 14 2016 6:55 AM

Doc B:

Denise:
increased customer confusion, and frustration

Kevin Byford (Faithlife):

Thanks Denise,

I don't see a problem here that Faithlife can fix. Please post again if an actual issue arises. 

And I suspect this attitude (it's not an 'actual issue' if we can't fix it) could be added to the growing list of reasons the company doesn't get it, as well.

I suspect he meant "specific, actionable issue" - but yeah, that's not an ideal way to express it when talking to customers.

Posts 10779
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 14 2016 8:00 AM

The actionable solution I refused was re-installing/downloading which I said 'no', having seen the same issue over and over.  And a Logos propensity to try this, try that in contrast to competitor products that (for me) simply work and emphasize a solid design.

I'm only piping up in defense of Kevin. True, he's up-front comment-wise. But he's fronting a corporate set of priorities, and I (was) a cost of of their decisions.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 28742
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 14 2016 1:38 PM

Denise:
emphasize a solid design.

Denise, Denise ... you're thinking like an old fogey of a programmer ... back in the day when you didn't just cold start a main frame on whim. They don't teach 'em like that any more. I know 'cuz my grandson is a recent CS grad working at MS. But it shore is nice to see another old fogey online. Big Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 10779
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 14 2016 2:40 PM

I think it was the white 'doctor' coats. They just looked really smart.  Nothing could ever go wrong.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 3547
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 14 2016 2:44 PM

MJ. Smith:

Denise, Denise ... you're thinking like an old fogey of a programmer ... back in the day when you didn't just cold start a main frame on whim. They don't teach 'em like that any more. I know 'cuz my grandson is a recent CS grad working at MS. But it shore is nice to see another old fogey online. Big Smile

I loved being in the machine room. Nothing better at the time than being a System Operator. Back in the day, we had paper tape, teletypes (TTY), 300 baud acoustic modems, card readers, line printers, magnetic core memory, consoles with huge front panels. Disk packs were huge and only stored 10 Mb. Changing ribbons on drum printers, what a mess! Some older systems, you had to IPL (initial program load) by entering machine code by hand.

Back then, we had Assembly Language, Fortran, Structured Programming (top-down), flow charts, and had to keypunch our programs onto cards.

Back then, a solid design was made out of iron Stick out tongue There was no such thing as a (graphical) UI.

Now we have internet, wi-fi, tablets and smart phones, and beautiful languages like Swift, yet people grumble about modern software and technology.

People might not like some things about Logos, but as a bit of an old-timer, I really, really appreciate it, especially since we only had 4-8 Mb of memory, in the day. I may be new to Logos, but I think it's really special to have this amazing library and collection of features and tools, dedicated to Bible study.

Anyway, cost is probably the biggest thing that stops me from buying more books and courses. If they were more affordable, I'd have bought them already.

My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 14 2016 2:45 PM

Denise:

Nothing could ever go wrong.

We had hackers trying to break into the system. There were plenty of problems back then. Nothing is new.

EDIT: Actually, come to think of it, I was a hacker, before I got a good job. Embarrassed

My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

Posts 2542
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 14 2016 2:57 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

It already came and went, but it wasn't Libronix. (Libronix books were never advertised as being usable within other software programs.)

The book format that could be used in multiple programs was STEP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEP_Library. It was never supported by Logos. 

There is at least one no cost program with a STEP reader built in available that work on Windows 10 if you still have a STEP library you are trying to read.  Mentioning it might get me for violating forum rules but it is listed in that Wikipedia article. 

Posts 4
David Menton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 16 2016 10:10 AM

I have all the books (and more) than I need now. I would, however, be tempted to buy books by conservative Lutheran authors such as Gerhard, Hunnius, Ylvisaker, Kretzmann -- the list goes on (if the price is right). I have been waiting for months for Faithlife to release the prepub on Kretzmann's Popular Commentary. I know, I am a theological dinosaur whose literary interests have little or no impact on Faithlife's financial bottom line.

Posts 2200
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 16 2016 10:54 AM

I keep tripping over the urgent trend toward a subscription model.  If I subscribe, why buy? If I buy, why subscribe?  So I do neither--well, I buy little bits and pieces--but certainly nothing big, like I want to do.  Waiting to see what might happen next. I wonder if many old timers with big investments are uneasy and find themselves under the purchase threshold?  Maybe lots and lots of little purchases of subscriptions will be better in the long run for FL. Seems to me that might be be a different demographic than had been supporting FL. We will see.  

More clarity further along the horizon would make a difference.  Then I might buy more.  

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 16 2016 11:36 AM

Gao Lu:

I keep tripping over the urgent trend toward a subscription model.  If I subscribe, why buy? If I buy, why subscribe?

There's a big difference between the (Logos Now software/features) subscription model and library purchases.

Logos Now is not a library subscription. You still would need to buy books.

Logos Cloud is a library subscription which applies to people who don't own (many) books, but would want to rent a collection of books. Renting a library is cheaper short-term, but more expensive long-term, and you obviously lose any books you rented when you cancel.

Bob has repeatedly said that FL will not be moving to subscription-only, and that they will continue to sell both books and features. There's no urgency to subscribe to anything if you don't want to, and no one is being penalized if they don't subscribe. Any subscription is optional.

My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

Posts 10779
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 16 2016 12:00 PM

I think Gau Lu might be correct.

I'm certainly not an old timer (2005) or big spender (maybe $25-30k-ish) but I've been onsey-twosy purchasing every since Now.  

One can say Now is just features (mainly), but my impression of myself, is I'm on the 'B-team' 'now'.

I remember I bought a Zondervan package and then refunded it ... seemed too dicey, being Zonder*****s and a bad feel too it. The refund guy at Logos seemed mystified since it was a good deal. I agreed.

When you're on the B-team, you're more careful.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 2902
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 16 2016 6:01 PM

David Menton:
I am a theological dinosaur

Dr. Menton, that made me snort my tea.

I doubt you remember me, but you and I spoke on a few panels together in the St. Charles/St. Louis area about 20 years ago with the MAC folks. I was the Dean of Natural Sciences at MoBap at the time.

Good to run into you here!

-J B Boren

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 2200
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 17 2016 4:03 AM

PetahChristian:

Gao Lu:

I keep tripping over the urgent trend toward a subscription model.  If I subscribe, why buy? If I buy, why subscribe?

There's a big difference between the (Logos Now software/features) subscription model and library purchases.

Logos Now is not a library subscription. You still would need to buy books.

Logos Cloud is a library subscription which applies to people who don't own (many) books, but would want to rent a collection of books. Renting a library is cheaper short-term, but more expensive long-term, and you obviously lose any books you rented when you cancel.

Bob has repeatedly said that FL will not be moving to subscription-only, and that they will continue to sell both books and features. There's no urgency to subscribe to anything if you don't want to, and no one is being penalized if they don't subscribe. Any subscription is optional.

You presented this well.  I have confidence that Logos will not go "Subscription Only."  However, take into account that "Cloud" thing and all the focus on "Now" and the open expression of diminishing interest in anything BUT, and I am left looking at my expensive library on the left and my B Team button on the right and pressing down inner anxiety.  Why would FL  invest in the son-turned-stepchild that they don't really like so well anymore?  Purchased books and basic software won't go away.  True.  But the leading edge, the future, the joy of tomorrow is blossoming forth as a bright beautiful shiny-gold calf engraved across the udder with "subsciption."  No doubt there will be more and more incentives to subscribe and the best way to bring along all those former investors will be to slowly pinch off the oats going into their feed trough.  Leave them with yesterday. When they get hungry enough...offer the best oats through subscription, and they might still be good for a little milk. Might be.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 19 2016 5:18 PM

1. A software development team and company that actually listens to customer concerns, and addresses them, rather than simply saying "you don't know what you're talking about."

2. A way to actually make Logos work with outside note taking software, such as OneNote, without needing to go through hoops to make it work. In fact, this would be preferable to Logos continuing to try to be all things to all people. Give up, and cede the note taking market to applications that actually do a good job at it.

3. Less expensive resources.

4. A forum that was actual discussion about the product, rather than a huge fan club.

Overall, I'm at the point where I use Logos because I _need_ to, rather than because I actually think it's a great product by a great company. I've long ago quit fighting to get my seminary on Logos, I've stopped recommending it to friends, and I've definitely stopped giving away copies to people I think need good research tools. At this point, it looks to me like Logos wins because there is no serious competition, not because the company listens (or cares, as far as I can see), nor because the product is great. IMHO, it would not be a bad thing if Logos were bought out -- maybe someone other than the current leadership would actually listen.

FYI, I've spent over $49k on books for myself in Logos, and given away more than 10 copies of Silver over the years. I now look elsewhere first, and avoid buying books in Logos format unless there just isn't any other choice, or because I have a collection I would like to complete, etc.. I started using Logos 16+ years ago, so I'm not a newbie here. 

My opinion of Logos has gone steadily down over the last several years, as a company and as a product. If Faithlife changes, then perhaps I'll change my opinion, and start buying/giving away Logos again. Until then, I've reduced my spending with Faithlife to the minimum possible. 

Russ

Posts 640
Ted Weis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 19 2016 5:46 PM

Russ White:

1. A software development team and company that actually listens to customer concerns, and addresses them, rather than simply saying "you don't know what you're talking about."

2. A way to actually make Logos work with outside note taking software, such as OneNote, without needing to go through hoops to make it work. In fact, this would be preferable to Logos continuing to try to be all things to all people. Give up, and cede the note taking market to applications that actually do a good job at it.

3. Less expensive resources.

4. A forum that was actual discussion about the product, rather than a huge fan club.

FYI, I've spent over $49k on books for myself in Logos, and given away more than 10 copies of Silver over the years. I now look elsewhere first, and avoid buying books in Logos format unless there just isn't any other choice, or because I have a collection I would like to complete, etc.. I started using Logos 16+ years ago, so I'm not a newbie here. 

My opinion of Logos has gone steadily down over the last several years, as a company and as a product. If Faithlife changes, then perhaps I'll change my opinion, and start buying/giving away Logos again. Until then, I've reduced my spending with Faithlife to the minimum possible. 

At the risk looking like a fan, and without near the investment spending gravitas...

1 & 4. The CEO's presence on this forum shows that the company listens. Compare FL to Zondervan, IVP, etc. FL looks better IMHO. Years ago, Taylor Guitar sponsored a user's forum; when the critics chirped too loudly, Taylor ended its relationship and the forum became independent. Lots of people gripe here, but the company still associates with the forum. That's a sign of strength.

2. I use notes heavily, filing interesting quotes, blog posts, stories, etc. tagged to appropriate verses. It's a clunky filing system. When I search it, the results are not very good. I would be nice if note integrated into something like Evernote that provided more powerful search.

3. It looks to me like prices have gone up--smaller discounts, higher list prices. However, the pre-pub price for 533 Carson sermons and dozens of media files--that was a good value.

Overall, though I'm not as enthusiastic right now, I am still vested and rooting for FL, and desire its continued prosperity.

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