I'm upset with the new Logos 7.3 about information
I've been with logos since it came on a few floppy disks. I own over 1300 resources and purchased logos seven cross grade and am a logos now subscriber since its beginning. Yet it is implied in the above screenshot with the red X that I am a lower-class user because I don't have a logos seven library. I am a layperson and I choose to buy the books that I really need rather than ones that I will never look at. Please let me know your opinion on this issue.
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I agree. It's annoying, plus it shows less info than before. Previously it showed the largest library purchased, now it's just a binary value: L7 library or not. Neither way is useful--they need to show a list of libraries.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Mike I am also not that happy with this either, I have Logos 7 Standard Platinum. But the about info only gives me credit having a Logos 7 library.. For the longest time it just showed that I had Logos 6 Reformed Platinum at least this has been changed. I would like the software to reflect the current base package that I have upgraded to and paid for.
This is the 6th base package I have now and Logos / FL could at least acknowledge that yes you do have Logos 7 Platinum within the software.
L4 BS, L5 RB & Gold, L6 S & R Platinum, L7 Platinum, L8 Baptist Platinum, L9 Baptist Platinum, L10 Baptist Silver
2021 MacBook Pro M1 Pro 14" 16GB 512GB SSD, running MacOS Monterey iPad Mini 6, iPhone 11.0 -
Mike, my apologies, but that is so funny. Usually businesses try to over-emphasize a customers love for their product. Logos really goes out of its way to insure you know you're NOT a Logos-lover. Unless you click that pretty blue link!
I'm guessing they'll give me a no-library, since my last package was asked to commit seppiku in the late 2009's.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Mike, thanks for the feedback. And thanks for being a longtime customer! Our intent is not to make anyone feel like a lower-class customer. I'm sorry the design made you feel that way.
First, let me say that this is not the final design for this feature. We'd like to show more information than "pre-Logos 7." Ideally, we'd show your latest library's version and level. But we need a new web service to do that. We also realize that the binary green check-mark and red ex don't do justice to the nuance here. We'll give some more thought on how to modify this.
Second, let me clarify that what we're trying to do is serve customers. We've found that the majority of customer think of Logos as one, unified thing. Many will download the free engine and not really understand that they're missing out on new features. Many who do a full upgrade don't understand that their upgrade includes a new library. These nuances are lost on many people, and our aim is to help people have a more precise understanding of what they have and don't have. It's okay if you intentionally choose just to update the software, or the software and the features. Our aim is to help those who make the wrong choice out of ignorance or confusion.
Thanks for your feedback. We'll keep it in mind as we improve this.
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I get that the tone may be a bit off from a marketing point of view, but I'm struggling a bit to see the real problem here. The software version number is critically important. But that's pretty much it - the "about" doesn't even try to provide the information we'd need to track our purchases. It's basically performing the same function as the manufacturer's nameplate on a car; it's a shiny chrome symbol, so to speak, that you've purchased an expensive product from a "name brand" manufacturer.
Personally, I wish there were a good way to track purchases from within the application - perhaps by appending a "purchase date" field to each resource (in my perfect world, it would also have the purchase price too). But other than the version date, I view this as a digital marketing sticker slapped on the back of the product.
ADDENDUM:
I didn't see Phil's response before hitting "enter" on my post.
Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:...We've found that the majority of customer think of Logos as one, unified thing. Many will download the free engine and not really understand that they're missing out on new features. Many who do a full upgrade don't understand that their upgrade includes a new library. These nuances are lost on many people, and our aim is to help people have a more precise understanding of what they have and don't have. ...
This seems like a reasonable thing for FaithLife to be concerned about.
Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:.... We'd like to show more information than "pre-Logos 7." Ideally, we'd show your latest library's version and level. ...
That would seem helpful.
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I have Verbum 7 Portfolio and this screen directs me to "Explore More Libraries" at the Verbum.com website but the only ones I don't have are the Spanish language ones. No habla.
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
Ideally, we'd show your latest library's version and level.
Ideally (imo), you'd show ALL owned library versions and levels. :-)
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EastTN, no offense, but you can't be among the living (joking). The SE on my new electric bicycle is absolutely critical. It means I have the best, and the hill is just too steep (the SE tried its best, but the rider might need to diet). Our electric wonder car is a complete waste, if we can't be reminded how smart we were (and wasted large amounts of mula).
I really think Christians (not referring to EastTN) like to play like they're not human, even though casual observation highlights women with their fashions, and men with their latest gadgets ... oh yes .... Logos7 Sapphire!!!
Logos would do well to reward the humans for buying so much stuff. Then they'll buy even more.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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EastTN said:
I get that the tone may be a bit off from a marketing point of view, but I'm struggling a bit to see the real problem here. The software version number is critically important. But that's pretty much it - the "about" doesn't even try to provide the information we'd need to track our purchases.
I agree. I don't really care if it shows what libraries I own (though it would be nice and appease). What it should show is enough diagnostic information to be helpful: The software version and what features are enabled/disabled and the information to determine why.
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Denise said:
. . .
Logos would do well to reward the humans for buying so much stuff. Then they'll buy even more.
The whole point, I imagine.
I want Logos/Verbum/Faithlife to survive and Bob to prosper so all the money I've spent won't go down the drain. So, I guess I'll have to accept the marketing.
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Randy W. Sims said:
What it should show is enough diagnostic information to be helpful: The software version and what features are enabled/disabled and the information to determine why.
We're working on some improvements for 7.4 that will show you specifically what functionality you're missing and what to do about it if you'd like to enable it. We also plan to have a setting that will allow you to disable it if you don't care to be reminded about missing functionality.
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Hapax ... normally I'd agree. But in this case, Phil proposes to attach a label to the pastor's suit, saying 'We DO make better suits than you bought.' It'll be a big motivator.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
...The SE on my new electric bicycle is absolutely critical. It means I have the best, and the hill is just too steep (the SE tried its best, but the rider might need to diet). Our electric wonder car is a complete waste, if we can't be reminded how smart we were (and wasted large amounts of mula).
Well, now that you put it that way ...
[:D]
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Randy W. Sims said:
...What it should show is enough diagnostic information to be helpful: The software version and what features are enabled/disabled and the information to determine why.
That makes complete sense to me - it's information needed for support and troubleshooting.
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Mike McKnelly said:
I've been with logos since it came on a few floppy disks. I own over 1300 resources and purchased logos seven cross grade and am a logos now subscriber since its beginning. Yet it is implied in the above screenshot with the red X that I am a lower-class user because I don't have a logos seven library. I am a layperson and I choose to buy the books that I really need rather than ones that I will never look at. Please let me know your opinion on this issue.
Once again Faithlife treats its customer with no respect putting a big red cross against them because they haven't bought a Logos 7 library is appalling.
Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:Second, let me clarify that what we're trying to do is serve customers.
Er no, I don't think you are serving customers when that is the way you choose to communicate with them. Sorry customer but you get a big red cross on your account because you have spent money buying one of our latest libraries. Previously we told you, it's not required but now if you haven't your getting a cross against your name
I really don't understand how the designers could ever think putting the dredded red ink mark on a users software against their account information is helpful.
Randy W. Sims said:I don't really care if it shows what libraries I own (though it would be nice and appease). What it should show is enough diagnostic information to be helpful: The software version and what features are enabled/disabled and the information to determine why.
Yes Randy helpful informaiton is welcome, what Faithlife designers have done has gone beyond helpful information to providing a judgement on the users purchase choices.
Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:We're working on some improvements for 7.4 that will show you specifically what functionality you're missing and what to do about it if you'd like to enable it. We also plan to have a setting that will allow you to disable it if you don't care to be reminded about missing functionality.
The real truth is coming out in this comment, you just want to intrude further with your marketing. We've given you a big fail mark against your account because you haven't spent enough money with us recently but if you'd like us to remove it, here's how you can do that by spending more money this way. You are going beyond the helpful diagnostic information that Randy discusses. This goes to the heart of a marketing team driven by worldly focussed marketing practices - lets tell the customers who haven' spent enough money with us they are bad - a big red cross on their software about page should do make that clear to them, and then once we got them feeling bad, lets provide a way for them to fix their failure by directing them how to spend more money with us.I wonder what Martin Luther would think.
Phil you used to be a customer like one of us, what has happened to you that you know think treating customers this way is an appropriate way to engage them and is somehow helpful to them. Your customer base includes academics, pastors and theological students yet you seem to think treating them like children and red inking them is they way to communicate with them. Really disappointing stuff once again from the Faithlife Design and Marketing Teams.
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I know, I know ... I should be quiet. But I can't stop laughing. I assume, if I update my Logos7, I'll get TWO red X's! I feel like the Doublement girls. Double my red-hot flavor. Wow, this is great.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I posted in a different thread before I saw this one ... thought it more appropriate here ....
I would also mention a more insignificant, but curious issue on the Info Panel header ... I use the Verbum-branded version of the software (v7), am a Verbum Now member, and I have the Verbum 7 Platinum Library. Everything displays the Verbum branding except for the library. It says Logos 7. Seems like there may be a different level of precision in the display than there used to be. I recall seeing Verbum Capstone in that header information prior to the v7 upgrade this fall. Not sure what it said before this update.
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Steve said:
I posted in a different thread before I saw this one ... thought it more appropriate here ....
I would also mention a more insignificant, but curious issue on the Info Panel header ... I use the Verbum-branded version of the software (v7), am a Verbum Now member, and I have the Verbum 7 Platinum Library. Everything displays the Verbum branding except for the library. It says Logos 7. Seems like there may be a different level of precision in the display than there used to be. I recall seeing Verbum Capstone in that header information prior to the v7 upgrade this fall. Not sure what it said before this update.
Thanks for the report, Steve. I believe this supposed to say "Verbum 7 Library". We'll get this fixed up.
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
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Is it really that important to see how many libraries we own?
Must we find fault with FL for how they choose to market their product?
With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so. James 3 9:10 NKJV
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Mike McKnelly said:
Please let me know your opinion on this issue.
I think it is a poor choice of icons but have more important issues to spend my "upset" on [;)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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EastTN said:
but I'm struggling a bit to see the real problem here.
Just attaching to you for convenience EastTN not actually responding to you. There is one real problem and that is the Logos only/Verbum only features when one has actually purchased both. Yes, there is a backdoor via the command box but it does affect the visible options esp. in the Passage Guide. I would like it to be noted.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I already have 1300+ resources. Logos Now. and the crossgrade also I own Silver 5. I cant see any advantage to me to buy Logos 6 and 7 silver library. many of the books I own are hand picked by me.
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If this is the case, then why let a red check mark bother you? You have spent your time and money building the library that suits your needs best, why let a silly red check mark worry you? You see no value in Logos 7, isn't that all that matters?
My Blog: Theological Musings
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MJ. Smith said:
I think it is a poor choice of icons but have more important issues to spend my "upset" on
That pretty much sums it up for me too.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Concerning the OP:
Please pardon my ignorance, but how do we get to see the information which the OP is upset about (i.e. the green ticks and the red cross)?
Director
Elyon Family Clinic & Surgery Pte Ltd
Singapore
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Jan Krohn said:Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
Ideally, we'd show your latest library's version and level.
Ideally (imo), you'd show ALL owned library versions and levels. :-)
I can see that as being beneficial (not critical), I was about to write that it would be nice, but not on the about screen, until I discovered the amount of white space on that screen. They could probably fit 30 different packages in that space. [:)]
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Disciple of Christ (doc) said:
Once again Faithlife treats its customer with no respect putting a big red cross against them because they haven't bought a Logos 7 library is appalling.
You're reading intent into the symbols that wasn't there. The question is whether the user is up to date in three different categories. The ✓ = yes; the x = no. That’s it. This is a common convention for communicating yes and no with symbols. Do you feel the symbols are less offensive in the software category? If the symbols were replaced with corresponding words, would you feel the same way? Or is it the fact that we’re raising the question of being up to date at all? I'm not discounting your feelings. I've already indicated earlier in this thread that we'll reconsider the symbols. (Do you have a proposal on a different set of symbols?) But there's really no disrespect intended. We're simply conveying facts here. There's no need to be embarrassed or feel diminished if you see an x. The benefit of the x (the concept, not necessarily the symbol) is that it might alert a user to something they didn't know before. This isn't aimed at those who frequent the forums and already have a pretty nuanced understanding of these categories. It's aimed at the majority of users who don't really understand the differences between the free engine, the feature set, and the library.
Disciple of Christ (doc) said:The real truth is coming out in this comment, you just want to intrude further with your marketing. We've given you a big fail mark against your account because you haven't spent enough money with us recently but if you'd like us to remove it, here's how you can do that by spending more money this way. You are going beyond the helpful diagnostic information that Randy discusses. This goes to the heart of a marketing team driven by worldly focussed marketing practices - lets tell the customers who haven' spent enough money with us they are bad - a big red cross on their software about page should do make that clear to them, and then once we got them feeling bad, lets provide a way for them to fix their failure by directing them how to spend more money with us.I wonder what Martin Luther would think.
That's just not the case. We're trying to provide helpful information so users can make informed decisions. Yes, we want to make sales. But we want to make sales because we believe we have a lot of value to provide to Bible students that's worth their money, and we want to do so in a transparent way that serves them by helping them make informed decisions. I made it clear in my previous comment that this will all be optional. If you prefer not to see missing functionality, you can turn it off globally. There's absolutely no requirement to spend money to turn off the upsell.
Disciple of Christ (doc) said:Phil you used to be a customer like one of us, what has happened to you that you know think treating customers this way is an appropriate way to engage them and is somehow helpful to them. Your customer base includes academics, pastors and theological students yet you seem to think treating them like children and red inking them is they way to communicate with them. Really disappointing stuff once again from the Faithlife Design and Marketing Teams.
I don't think I've changed. I'm still a champion for customers, and I’m very aware of and sensitive to customers with low budgets. Ask around the office, and I think you'll find that I'm a strong advocate for pro-customer behavior. Just last week I sent around an example of how Google notified me that I was underutilizing a Compute Engine VM. They recommended that I drop down to a smaller VM and save $17/mo. As I customer, I really appreciate businesses that have my best interest in mind (and I also know that they’re doing it in part because they want to build trust so they can keep my long-term business). As an employee at Faithlife, I want to keep advocating that we do similar things to take care of customers and help them feel like they can trust us.
One thing that may be missing here is intended audience and context. We're aiming primarily at the tens of thousands of people who download our free engine and haven't bought a base package or in many cases spent any money with us yet. What we've done historically is hide features for which users don't have a license. IMO, that's not a particularly pro-user behavior. What if one of those features would be of great value to a user and we've never made them aware of it? I think we've failed to serve them well. We're shifting to exposing unlicensed features so users can make informed decisions. If a user decides he's not interested in a feature, that's fine. You can toggle a setting to hide all the in-app upselling. We're happy to serve users who have little-to-no spend with us. We just want to make sure they're in that category on purpose rather than because we've not made clear to them what they're missing and how to do something about it. The fact that we're creating a way to turn this off should make it clear that we care about serving users of all spend levels. We don't want anyone to feel punished or belittled. We’re opposed to shaming people into buying. Not only is that against our values, but it’s also just bad business.
One of the reasons we're even pursuing this is so that we can be even more pro-customer to the rest of our base. Many people start with our free engine and then eventually work their way to a base package. But that's happened more organically than through a carefully designed sales funnel in many cases. We feel a responsibility to make sure we're making the most of the opportunities we're given—not just for their sake, but for the broader user base and for future users of Logos. It's a matter of wisdom and stewardship to make sure we're working to deliver as much value as we can to as many customers as we can. Growing the business with transparent communication so we can serve everyone better is what's motivating this change. If you have suggestions on how we can better accomplish these goals, but all means please share them. We want to find a solution that serves everyone well.
This set of changes is part of a larger plan that's not yet shipped. More of this will become clearer in February and beyond. We’d appreciate your feedback along the way. Most of all, we’d appreciate the benefit of the doubt that we are really committed to serving our customers. If you have ideas on how we can do that better, we’d love to hear them.
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Vincent Chia said:
Concerning the OP:
Please pardon my ignorance, but how do we get to see the information which the OP is upset about (i.e. the green ticks and the red cross)?
Make sure you're running 7.3, and then check About Logos Bible Software.
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Just saw it after seeing this Thread...cause I normaly never got to this Place "about"
OK there is a red Cross on Libary, So what? I know I don't have a L7 LIbary I have L6 Gold and LN that right for me and my Budget. Dit I feel bad if i see this red cross? Dit I feel like a Second Class Logos User? Not at all. I also don't feel like a Looser cause I'm still working with Word 2010 even if Microsoft reminds me that my Software is old...come one there is more in the World to be upset about as a red Cross.
BUT
a red Cross in my Software normaly tells me, that there is something broken or does'nt work anymore. So just remoove this red Cross would help.
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Maybe I should ask myself...why dit it makes me feel bad even if Logos would handle me as Second or third Class User? Maybe I thought on myself as more important as I am...
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