I'm upset with the new Logos 7.3 about information

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This post has 108 Replies | 6 Followers

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 3:07 PM

Mike McKnelly:
Please let me know your opinion on this issue.

I think it is a poor choice of icons but have more important issues to spend my "upset" on Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 3:15 PM

EastTN:
but I'm struggling a bit to see the real problem here. 

Just attaching to you for convenience EastTN not actually responding to you. There is one real problem and that is the Logos only/Verbum only features when one has actually purchased both. Yes, there is a backdoor via the command box but it does affect the visible options esp. in the Passage Guide. I would like it to be noted.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 297
Mike McKnelly | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 3:25 PM

I already have 1300+ resources. Logos Now. and the crossgrade also I own Silver 5. I cant see any advantage to me to buy Logos 6 and 7 silver library. many of the books I own are hand picked by me.

Posts 165
Clifford B. Kvidahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 4:17 PM

If this is the case, then why let a red check mark bother you? You have spent your time and money building the library that suits your needs best, why let a silly red check mark worry you? You see no value in Logos 7, isn't that all that matters?

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 5:06 PM

MJ. Smith:
I think it is a poor choice of icons but have more important issues to spend my "upset" on Wink

That pretty much sums it up for me too.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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Vincent Chia | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 6:20 PM

Concerning the OP:

Please pardon my ignorance, but how do we get to see the information which the OP is upset about (i.e. the green ticks and the red cross)?

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Erwin Stull, Sr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 8:02 PM

Jan Krohn:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
Ideally, we'd show your latest library's version and level.

Ideally (imo), you'd show ALL owned library versions and levels. :-)

I can see that as being beneficial (not critical), I was about to write that it would be nice, but not on the about screen, until I discovered the amount of white space on that screen. They could probably fit 30 different packages in that space. Smile

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 8:27 PM

Disciple of Christ (doc):
Once again Faithlife treats its customer with no respect putting a big red cross against them because they haven't bought a Logos 7 library is appalling.

You're reading intent into the symbols that wasn't there. The question is whether the user is up to date in three different categories. The ✓ = yes; the x = no. That’s it. This is a common convention for communicating yes and no with symbols. Do you feel the symbols are less offensive in the software category? If the symbols were replaced with corresponding words, would you feel the same way? Or is it the fact that we’re raising the question of being up to date at all? I'm not discounting your feelings. I've already indicated earlier in this thread that we'll reconsider the symbols. (Do you have a proposal on a different set of symbols?) But there's really no disrespect intended. We're simply conveying facts here. There's no need to be embarrassed or feel diminished if you see an x. The benefit of the x (the concept, not necessarily the symbol) is that it might alert a user to something they didn't know before. This isn't aimed at those who frequent the forums and already have a pretty nuanced understanding of these categories. It's aimed at the majority of users who don't really understand the differences between the free engine, the feature set, and the library.

Disciple of Christ (doc):
The real truth is coming out in this comment, you just want to intrude further with your marketing.  We've given you a big fail mark against your account because you haven't spent enough money with us recently but if you'd like us to remove it, here's how you can do that by spending more money this way.  You are going beyond the helpful diagnostic information that Randy discusses.  This goes to the heart of a marketing team driven by worldly focussed marketing practices - lets tell the customers who haven' spent enough money with us they are bad - a big red cross on their software about page should do make that clear to them, and then once we got them feeling bad, lets provide a way for them to fix their failure by directing them how to spend more money with us.I wonder what Martin Luther would think.

That's just not the case. We're trying to provide helpful information so users can make informed decisions. Yes, we want to make sales. But we want to make sales because we believe we have a lot of value to provide to Bible students that's worth their money, and we want to do so in a transparent way that serves them by helping them make informed decisions. I made it clear in my previous comment that this will all be optional. If you prefer not to see missing functionality, you can turn it off globally. There's absolutely no requirement to spend money to turn off the upsell.

Disciple of Christ (doc):
Phil you used to be a customer like one of us, what has happened to you that you know think treating customers this way is an appropriate way to engage them and is somehow helpful to them.  Your customer base includes academics, pastors and theological students yet you seem to think treating them like children and red inking them is they way to communicate with them. Really disappointing stuff once again from the Faithlife Design and Marketing Teams.

I don't think I've changed. I'm still a champion for customers, and I’m very aware of and sensitive to customers with low budgets. Ask around the office, and I think you'll find that I'm a strong advocate for pro-customer behavior. Just last week I sent around an example of how Google notified me that I was underutilizing a Compute Engine VM. They recommended that I drop down to a smaller VM and save $17/mo. As I customer, I really appreciate businesses that have my best interest in mind (and I also know that they’re doing it in part because they want to build trust so they can keep my long-term business). As an employee at Faithlife, I want to keep advocating that we do similar things to take care of customers and help them feel like they can trust us.

One thing that may be missing here is intended audience and context. We're aiming primarily at the tens of thousands of people who download our free engine and haven't bought a base package or in many cases spent any money with us yet. What we've done historically is hide features for which users don't have a license. IMO, that's not a particularly pro-user behavior. What if one of those features would be of great value to a user and we've never made them aware of it? I think we've failed to serve them well. We're shifting to exposing unlicensed features so users can make informed decisions. If a user decides he's not interested in a feature, that's fine. You can toggle a setting to hide all the in-app upselling. We're happy to serve users who have little-to-no spend with us. We just want to make sure they're in that category on purpose rather than because we've not made clear to them what they're missing and how to do something about it. The fact that we're creating a way to turn this off should make it clear that we care about serving users of all spend levels. We don't want anyone to feel punished or belittled. We’re opposed to shaming people into buying. Not only is that against our values, but it’s also just bad business.

One of the reasons we're even pursuing this is so that we can be even more pro-customer to the rest of our base. Many people start with our free engine and then eventually work their way to a base package. But that's happened more organically than through a carefully designed sales funnel in many cases. We feel a responsibility to make sure we're making the most of the opportunities we're given—not just for their sake, but for the broader user base and for future users of Logos. It's a matter of wisdom and stewardship to make sure we're working to deliver as much value as we can to as many customers as we can. Growing the business with transparent communication so we can serve everyone better is what's motivating this change. If you have suggestions on how we can better accomplish these goals, but all means please share them. We want to find a solution that serves everyone well.

This set of changes is part of a larger plan that's not yet shipped. More of this will become clearer in February and beyond. We’d appreciate your feedback along the way. Most of all, we’d appreciate the benefit of the doubt that we are really committed to serving our customers. If you have ideas on how we can do that better, we’d love to hear them.

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 8:49 PM

Vincent Chia:

Concerning the OP:

Please pardon my ignorance, but how do we get to see the information which the OP is upset about (i.e. the green ticks and the red cross)?

Make sure you're running 7.3, and then check About Logos Bible Software.

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Sascha John | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 10:46 PM

Just saw it after seeing this Thread...cause I normaly never got to this Place "about"

OK there is a red Cross on Libary, So what? I know I don't have a L7 LIbary I have L6 Gold and LN that right for me and my Budget. Dit I feel bad if i see this red cross? Dit I feel like a Second Class Logos User? Not at all. I also don't feel like a Looser cause I'm still working with Word 2010 even if Microsoft reminds me that my Software is old...come one there is more in the World to be upset about as a red Cross.

BUT

a red Cross in my Software normaly tells me, that there is something broken or does'nt work anymore. So just remoove this red Cross would help.

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Sascha John | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 11:14 PM

Maybe I should ask myself...why dit it makes me feel bad even if Logos would handle me as Second or third Class User? Maybe I thought on myself as more important as I am...

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Sascha John | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 20 2016 11:18 PM

Last Statement (have to clean up my Kitchen) From Buisness Side People with a Mark like red Crosss are not the Second Class. They are the First Class! The Company will do anything for them to let them get a new Libary Wink

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 12:52 AM

Sascha John:
a red Cross in my Software normaly tells me, that there is something broken or does'nt work anymore. So just remoove this red Cross would help

+1 Yes for removing X; mock up of an empty circle shows something is lacking:

For customers that have free engine without any library purchase, then empty circle (or gauge) is more accurate.

Alternate circle idea is a gauge to show amount of available functionality: empty lacks a lot while Now membership is full. Gauge level for Cloud depends on subscription level.

For library, Full could be "Gem" equivalent (number of resources) => Suggestion: "Gem" superset of Base Packages that would be true for a number of forum posters that have many thousands of resources.  If have only have free engine and free resources, then Library gauge is nearly empty (and searches can lack results). Portfolio package could be 3/4 full, which is substantial.

For this library, gauges show a number of features are unavailable plus number of resources in library could be noticeably increased.

Keep Smiling Smile

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 5:46 AM

Phil, Phil, Phil .... you're using Bob-ian logic. I'm completely up to date with no Now subscription. And I'm completely up to date with no L4, L5, L6, or L7 package ... and yes, I do have a fairly expensive library contra you guy's marketing.

You 'could' have put the latest software ship in parens like many, if indeed you were worried.

Now, personally, I've been laughing, because you guys turned a good user request (what do I have??) into a marketing gimmick. 

I don't think so, but for Bible software, it sounds like revenues are suffering more than the rumors are. Looks like.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

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Leo Wee Fah | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 6:05 AM

KS4J, I like very much your brilliant proposal YesYes

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SteveHD | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 6:36 AM

I like the informative view you have provided. Makes it so I do not have to call to ask. Clear. It is not telling something I do not expect and if it was I would know there was an issue. The links lead me right to where I need to go to improve my investment. No animations. Yes, I like it.

Apparently I need to get updated soon!

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 7:06 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
First, let me say that this is not the final design for this feature. We'd like to show more information than "pre-Logos 7." Ideally, we'd show your latest library's version and level. But we need a new web service to do that. We also realize that the binary green check-mark and red ex don't do justice to the nuance here. We'll give some more thought on how to modify this.

I'm not upset by the current choice, but if I was looking to improve it, I might suggest:

  • With regard to Features, I suggest:
    1. A red icon for those who have never bought a base package.
    2. An amber icon for those who own Feature Sets from L4 through L6 (or L7 starter).
    3. A green icon for those who have L7 feature set, or Logos Now.
  • With regard to Library
    • I'm not sure how helpful the current system is at all. Users who have L4 Portfolio have a better library than L7 Starter, so why should the L4 user have a red cross?
    • If you want to colour-code it, it should be done on library size, but that would be decisive, and of little help.
    • So, I would suggest removing this, and replacing it with an additional licencing panel (like the datasets list), that listed all your base packages — although I'm not personally convinced that a base package is necessarily more valuable than a bundle or large collection...
Posts 109
Brooks Cochran | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 7:18 AM

I agree. I know what I have...what I want...what I need. At times when dealing with FL regarding sales/etc I feel like I am dealing with a car dealership. For the record...I have been with Logos/FL since Version 2.0.

Posts 602
Bill Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 7:45 AM

At least in Logos 7 this is tucked away behind Help>About. I'd be really concerned if they did what Adobe has done.

In Adobe Reader, by default the "Tools" pane (read extra-fee required features) are visibly displayed and in your face. You can choose to hide it, which I have done. 

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 21 2016 7:47 AM

Mark Barnes:
An amber icon for those who own Feature Sets from L4 through L6 (or L7 starter).

Yes You own some features, but are missing other features. I think that's very sensible.

Currently, you have to understand what datasets are required for a tool to work. Users shouldn't need to know those details.

It would be helpful if people could easily see which tools would be new to them, so they could know what they'd need to buy/rent to get access to the tool(s) they want.

My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

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