Page 1 of 1 (6 items)
This post has 5 Replies | 1 Follower

Posts 258
Andrew | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Feb 6 2017 12:05 PM

In 2 Kings 25:8 עֶ֥בֶד מֶֽלֶךְ־בָּבֶ֖ל is a definite construct expression but often translated as "a servant of the king" rather than "the servant of the king" (eg. LEB).  Why is that?

How can I find other examples of definite construct expressions that are translated "a ______ of the ______"?

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 8 2017 9:14 AM

Andrew:
In 2 Kings 25:8 עֶ֥בֶד מֶֽלֶךְ־בָּבֶ֖ל is a definite construct expression but often translated as "a servant of the king" rather than "the servant of the king" (eg. LEB).  Why is that?

Searching Hebrew Grammars for <2K25.8> found some results in sections about the definite article (albeit different phrase):

Scrolling down in "An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax" found five more definite constructs in Hebrew that have an indefinite English translation. Scrolling down in "A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew: Revised English Edition" has genitive group mentioned in Joüon §139 and Joüon §140

Observations. 1) Both nouns of the genitive group can logically be united in a more or less close fashion. Thus בֵּית מֶ֫לֶךְ can mean: the house of a king or a king’s house (= a royal palace). This ambiguity is a considerable drawback of the Hebrew construction (cf. § 140b)().

Joüon, P., & Muraoka, T. (2006). A grammar of biblical Hebrew (p. 484). Roma: Pontificio Istituto Biblico.

Andrew:
How can I find other examples of definite construct expressions that are translated "a ______ of the ______"?

Bible Search idea is searching English Reverse Interlinear Bibles for an English indefinite article translated for a construct. Right click in 2 Kings 25:8 shows Morph NC-SC (Noun Common Singular Construct)

(([field bible, content] <LogosMorphHeb ~ NC-SC>) WITHIN 0-1 WORDS ([field bible, content] a, an))

Also can search where definite Hebrew article has an English indefinite translation:

(([field bible, content] <LogosMorphHeb ~ A>) ANDEQUALS ([field bible, content] a, an))

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 258
Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 9 2017 7:51 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Scrolling down in "An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax" found five more definite constructs in Hebrew that have an indefinite English translation.

Are you talking about examples 14-18 in your screenshot?  They provide examples of where a Hebrew definite article should be translated by an indefinite article in English, but those aren't construct chains, correct?

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Also can search where definite Hebrew article has an English indefinite translation:

(([field bible, content] <LogosMorphHeb ~ A>) ANDEQUALS ([field bible, content] a, an))

I believe this search will yield more examples like 14-18.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Bible Search idea is searching English Reverse Interlinear Bibles for an English indefinite article translated for a construct. Right click in 2 Kings 25:8 shows Morph NC-SC (Noun Common Singular Construct)

(([field bible, content] <LogosMorphHeb ~ NC-SC>) WITHIN 0-1 WORDS ([field bible, content] a, an))

This search will yield all construct nouns that are translated with an English indefinite article, not just those with a definite Absolute Noun in the construct chain, correct?  In other words, it will also find "a servant of a king" rather than just "a servant of the king".

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 9 2017 9:59 PM

Andrew:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Bible Search idea is searching English Reverse Interlinear Bibles for an English indefinite article translated for a construct. Right click in 2 Kings 25:8 shows Morph NC-SC (Noun Common Singular Construct)

(([field bible, content] <LogosMorphHeb ~ NC-SC>) WITHIN 0-1 WORDS ([field bible, content] a, an))

This search will yield all construct nouns that are translated with an English indefinite article, not just those with a definite Absolute Noun in the construct chain, correct?  In other words, it will also find "a servant of a king" rather than just "a servant of the king".

Correct, search can be refined using Lexham Hebrew-English Interlinear Bible (LHI)

(([field bible] <LogosMorphHeb ~ NC-SC>) ANDEQUALS ([field literal] a, an)) BEFORE 1 WORD ([field bible] <LogosMorphHeb ~ A>) BEFORE 1 WORD ([field bible] <LogosMorphHeb ~ N???A>)

2 Kings 25:8 can be found in a search of Construct before Absolute in LHI (albeit lacking definite article in Hebrew while literal has the)

(([field bible] <LogosMorphHeb ~ NC-SC>) ANDEQUALS ([field literal] a, an)) BEFORE 1 WORD (([field bible] <LogosMorphHeb ~ N???A>) ANDEQUALS ([field literal] the))

Andrew:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Also can search where definite Hebrew article has an English indefinite translation:

(([field bible, content] <LogosMorphHeb ~ A>) ANDEQUALS ([field bible, content] a, an))

I believe this search will yield more examples like 14-18.

Correct with results depending on English translation. Learned search could be simplified a bit:

(([field bible] <LogosMorphHeb ~ A>) ANDEQUALS ([field bible] a, an))

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 258
Andrew | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 9 2017 10:58 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

2 Kings 25:8 can be found in a search of Construct before Absolute in LHI (albeit lacking definite article in Hebrew while literal has the)

(([field bible] <LogosMorphHeb ~ NC-SC>) ANDEQUALS ([field literal] a, an)) BEFORE 1 WORD (([field bible] <LogosMorphHeb ~ N???A>) ANDEQUALS ([field literal] the))

This is perfect - Thank you!

Comparing the results with:

(([field bible] <LogosMorphHeb ~ NC-SC>) ANDEQUALS ([field literal] a, an)) BEFORE 1 WORD ([field bible] <LogosMorphHeb ~ A>) BEFORE 1 WORD ([field bible] <LogosMorphHeb ~ N???A>)

I think a bunch of "the"s in the first search should be italicized in the LEB to indicate that the definite article in the English is not in the Hebrew?

Why doesn't the second search query yield Genesis 37:36?  This one does have the definite article in the Hebrew.

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 10 2017 4:16 AM

Andrew:
Why doesn't the second search query yield Genesis 37:36?  This one does have the definite article in the Hebrew.

Modified search of LHI to include Genesis 37:36

(([field bible] <LogosMorphHeb ~ NC-SC>) ANDEQUALS ([field literal] a, an)) BEFORE 1 WORD ([field bible] <LogosMorphHeb ~ A>) BEFORE 0 WORDS ([field bible] <LogosMorphHeb ~ N???A>)

Keep Smiling Smile

Page 1 of 1 (6 items) | RSS