No NEW Journals - why not?

Page 26 of 38 (760 items) « First ... < Previous 24 25 26 27 28 Next > ... Last »
This post has 759 Replies | 26 Followers

Posts 10330
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 7:41 AM

Kevin A Lewis:

Denise:

But the journal pricing strategy insures failure .. each update makes the product less desirable for new participants.

Hi Denise

I believe I understand what you are saying here, as you haven't explained. But it might be worth spelling it out for those who aren't following your thinking and to ensure other like myself who 'think' they know what you mean are actually correct.

My guess is that you are referring to the cumulative aspects of the various 2.0, 2.1, 3.1 and 4.1 journal collections.

Shalom

Your guess was correct ... affordability. How many folks are up for these prepub prices (below)?  Personally, I'd break it down by older vs recent.


Posts 250
Theo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 7:58 AM

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):
We posted the Master Journal Bundle 4.1 and a few other journals bundles earlier in the year. We're waiting for these to get sufficient funding to put them into production.

My question above Mark's is, if they do not get the sufficient funding does that mean there are no more journal updates? Are we done at 4.1, and there will never be a 5.1 because there is not sufficient funding?

I'm aware of BW shutting down, and FL has to have a business model that does not jeopardize that future.  

Are there any other solutions except for us to create some buzz here in hopes to generate the interest for sufficient funding?

Anyone have any ideas?

My query was why the lack of interest? Can we as a community explain to FL why there is so lil' interest now in what this thread has cried out for?


We need to keep this thread alive and for FL to help us together to find a suitable solution going forward. I am encouraged by the recent activity as it seemed this thread went dormant for a while.  

I do feel the same way about many resources no longer coming along and either are stuck in pre-pub or never make it to that stage as one is relegated to posting in the suggestions to get some attention.

Let's all consider how to proceed properly and not sensationally and end up like BW. BW did not evolve its business model and thus was left obsolete. If people are going elsewhere for journals, that means people will end up going elsewhere for other items and soon FL will be on the chopping block like BW or go in a different direction and be forced to abandon journals because somewhere else did it better.  Is there an alternative to turn the tide?

Posts 9018
Forum MVP
Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 9:56 AM

Mark Barnes:

If it takes this long to get enough orders, then the pre-pubs should be launched 9-12 months earlier to ensure there isn’t an unnecessary delay.

Yes! Yes

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 9018
Forum MVP
Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 10:01 AM

Denise:
Your guess was correct ... affordability. How many folks are up for these prepub prices (below)?  Personally, I'd break it down by older vs recent.

I agree that price is a huge factor if you are purchasing these without having previous sets but if you have purchased previous sets it is more reasonable.

I agree with you Denise, breaking them down by older vs recent might help.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 1963
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 11:06 AM

Bruce Dunning:
I agree with you Denise, breaking them down by older vs recent might help.

I also would agree with this.

Ben, are you the head of the Journal TEAM working on this project?  Or is it Phil?  Or someone else? 

Posts 10330
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 11:25 AM

Hopefully Ben sees Mark's question.

Adding to my earlier point, not only is the aggregated pricing unaffordable for new participants. It's a dis-incentive to upgraders (small to large).

I checked what they're offering me to upgrade. Same as a first-timer ... about 25% discount for product less desired (in an upgrade). And unaffordable as well.

But, as in a poker game, my academic journal prepub is $25. Stand pat.


Posts 990
Tom Reynolds | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 1:53 PM

Denise:

I checked what they're offering me to upgrade. Same as a first-timer ... about 25% discount for product less desired (in an upgrade). And unaffordable as well.

Yes, cost, cost, cost. I checked my library and I have 789 resources with type:journal, mostly from the TJL days and my cost for the 4.1 Master Collection is $968.38. There's absolutely no way I can justify spending that kind of money on what they're offering. I, along with most who've been to Bible College or Seminary, have alumni access to ATLAS and that provides a much wider and more up to date selection than what Logos has available. Maybe Faithlife needs to be thinking subscription for journals in the hopes that those without ATLAS will at least pony up some money.

Posts 9105
Forum MVP
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 2:42 PM

The whole journal mess - long pre-pub times, little communication, unclear commitment to the journals, no regular release schedule, tons of journals very few people need or want that jack up the price - point to a decided lack of concern or understanding about journals with Faithlife.

The evidence is that it will soon be 2019 and the 2017 journals are buried in pre-pub.

Galaxie made a successful business out of journals, so why can't FL? They produced annual updates and sold them. No pre-pubs, not fooling around making excuses, they just did it. (Still do.)

What is needed is this: an annual update for each journal bundle, available every year, produced in a timely fashion, and with that year's journals only. No pre-pubs, just produce it and offer it for sale. Have the journal bundles no longer increment. Make them a separate purchase and let people buy them if they want the older journals, plus any annual updates to bring them up-to-date.

Why can't this be done by company hundreds of times bigger than Galaxie?

What is going on now is nothing but frustrating to those of us who want new journals in a timely fashion. The current model clearly is not working to this end.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 1963
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 2:55 PM

It was my understanding that the following are being offered:

MJB 4.1 $1799.99

TJB 4.1  $1099.99

AJB 4.1  $699.99

TJL 4.1   $569.99

These prices would scare anyone away.

But for those of us who have Journals previously, these prices look much nicer.  For myself, MJB 4.1 would be less than $100.

But what is the offering for those who have no journals to begin with?  Am I correct to think that past journals are available individually or in smaller bundles so as to entice people to purchase past journals?

And for those who want current Journals, there needs to be more than an upgrade in place....there needs to be current yearly Journals to purchase separately, apart from past Journals (or something like that).

FL, when you talk about funding, what are you really talking about? Can you not make available everything you have now currently, in packages that are appealing for people to purchase?  And if so, I really do not understand what kind of funding is needed to take care of current year Journals.  Surely there is a market for it.

As you know, in the past, there was a listing of Journals marketed to an evangelical audience sold by FL, but it came from Galaxie, and it sold each year for $50.  Can you bring back such offerings?  Perhaps you can have a listing of Journals marketed to a Catholic audience and sell it yearly for $50..another package to another audience, and sell it for a certain amount yearly.

I am only trying to brainstorm here because it appears to me that the lack of communication makes it clear that this project is not a priority.

In the early years of FL, one of the most incredible things was the open communication between FL and customers.  We heard from Bob very often.  I realize that as a company grows, that is going to change.  But I think that what made FL so successful is that the business grew on the good relations FL had with its customers. Now you have an incredible product.  But the communication seems to be much more muted.

There are models in business that speak about this...

Are you listening?

Posts 802
Lew Worthington | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 5:00 PM

Mark Smith:

What is needed is this: an annual update for each journal bundle, available every year, produced in a timely fashion....

Indeed. The nature of having journals and doing academic work is that you MUST have a consistent stream of new things coming in. Otherwise, we'll have to check what's in Logos and then go to the library and check what's there, too. (We have to do that anyway since many of the standard academic journals are not available got Logos; but having current volumes would mitigate against that problem.) Without that constant stream, having journals at all in Logos makes a lot less sense.

Posts 1839
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 7:34 PM

Mark:
Are ALL those various packages waiting for sufficient funding to move into production?  or just a few such as GTJ?

All.

Mark:
Is there still a team working on this project as of October 22, 2018?  What has happened since the last report that a team was working on this?

Occasionally we promote them to try to drive more funding. But other than that, no one is actively working on them. We're waiting for sufficient funding levels to be reached.

Posts 1839
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 7:40 PM

Kevin A Lewis:
So why are we told we must wait until there is 'funding' - this may make financial sense - but surely not sound commercial and promotional sense. These would be an investment in the health of the idea of Journals within Logos. These constant delays are just putting more and more people off and they are going elsewhere - or even resorting to the paper alternative.

We shipped the last round of journals significantly below 100% funding, and I don't think we've recouped our costs since then.

Regularly shipping journals without sufficient funding isn't sustainable.

Posts 1839
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 7:43 PM

John Goodman:

I agree with Kevin... lets have: you buy the back catalogue in a bundle and at $5 a month subscription it always stays up to date with new journals and you own them! That actually approximates close to the cost offered anyway. Logos gains reliable revenue and we gain reliable journals! WIN-WIN Just like a magazine subscription in paper would be.

We've discussed a model like this, but we'd have to build the commerce support for it. We don't have a way to do this presently. Would you rather have this, or cross-storefront search?

Posts 9105
Forum MVP
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 7:43 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
Occasionally we promote them to try to drive more funding. But other than that, no one is actively working on them. We're waiting for sufficient funding levels to be reached.

Phil,

This is simply a disaster. Please rethink how you are handling journals. FL's addiction to prepub is killing this product which just doesn't fit that sort of funding model. A book, lexicon, commentary? Yes. Journals which must be published in a timely way? Pre-pub doesn't work. 

Why could Galaxie manage to stay in business without prepub and FL with all it's size and resources can't find a way to make annual updates work? I don't buy it.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 9105
Forum MVP
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 7:47 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
Regularly shipping journals without sufficient funding isn't sustainable.

Agreed, but that didn't seem to be the case for Galaxie. What's the difference? 

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 9105
Forum MVP
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 7:49 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
We don't have a way to do this presently. Would you rather have this, or cross-storefront search?

Both. But if I wanted just one, it would be journals.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 1839
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 7:50 PM

David Paul:
I'm going to say it again...only about 5% of the Journals that FL has provided thus far ever show up in my Logos links (or my hard copy bibliographies, for that matter). There are about 15-25 journals that turn up regularly in my bibliographies and links that have literally thousands of references in Logos, but they remain dead links. WHY?????????

We ran into some challenges with our biblio links project, but we hope to get it moving again next year. I'm sorry it's taken much longer than we anticipated.

David Paul:
I think I've already listed some of them in this thread: VT, NT, HTR, CBQ, HUCA, just to reference a few...these are extremely common journals with TONS of relevant information that is locked out of the Logos user experience. THAT NEEDS TO CHANGE. Until these are part of the Logos stable, FL is just playing games.

I agreed it would be wonderful to have these journals. We've so far been unable to license them for a variety of reasons. Many are wrapped up in exclusive agreements and unavailable for others to offer.

Posts 1839
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 7:58 PM

Bruce Dunning:

Mark Barnes:

If it takes this long to get enough orders, then the pre-pubs should be launched 9-12 months earlier to ensure there isn’t an unnecessary delay.

Yes! Yes

We posted them right after we shipped the previous ones. I'm not sure how could have posted them any sooner.

Posts 9105
Forum MVP
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 8:04 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
We posted them right after we shipped the previous ones. I'm not sure how could have posted them any sooner.

You could post them two years in advance anticipating the contents to change only by the number of volumes you expect (from previous years) to be added. I'm not sure you need that much time, but you could get it, couldn't you? Is it that dynamic?

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 1943
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 8:20 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

John Goodman:

I agree with Kevin... lets have: you buy the back catalogue in a bundle and at $5 a month subscription it always stays up to date with new journals and you own them! That actually approximates close to the cost offered anyway. Logos gains reliable revenue and we gain reliable journals! WIN-WIN Just like a magazine subscription in paper would be.

We've discussed a model like this, but we'd have to build the commerce support for it. We don't have a way to do this presently. Would you rather have this, or cross-storefront search?

Instead of building additional commerce support for these, why not offer the following:

1. Switch the journal bundles to purchase to own to offering them by the year (like you did with Galaxie TJL in the past). Customers can purchase to own any of the previous years they want, or purchase a bundle that offers all the back years in a super bundle (like you did with Galaxie TJL 1-15). Offer the ability to purchase to own each year's new journal bundle when they're released by FL.

2. To expedite the funding/releasing of new journal bundles by FL, offer an all-access subscription service to all back issues of the journals, as well as any new issues that are offered. I know for us who invested in the back issues we've be paying for subscription access to the back issues as well, but at least it would give us access to all new journal issues. Those who subscribe to Galaxie now (like I do) are already double-paying since I own the back issues in Logos and are paying Galaxie to subscribe for access to the latest editions. 

Those who want a cost-effective way to get access to all back issues or access to all the future issues can jump on the subscription bandwagon and help support this project. FL can later release each year's journal bundles as a purchase option shortly after they're offered to subscribers (similar to how Faithlife Connect users get subscription access to new Logos features, or customers can direct purchase upgrade to the new version of Logos when released) for those who don't want to jump on the subscription bandwagon.

3. I would recommend FL focus on the Galaxie journals first. While they weren't "perfect" inside Logos and didn't have all the fancy tagging, as of now, I'd take them as-is if FL can get them. If FL wanted to offer the best of both worlds, then license the journals from Galaxie, go in and offer the additional tagging, and charge a slightly higher price for the annual subscription and/or annual purchase bundle prices to offer them in Logos (since they were $50 when Galaxie offered them, I'd pay at least $75+, possibly even higher, to have these in Logos) with the additional tagging). The Galaxie journals are the ones I (and many people) use the most, so I'd start there and forget the rest for a little bit. Judge how well the strategy goes with getting customers on board with these journal offerings, and if it's a success, expand to offering what was in the Master Bundle and other journal offerings.

Nathan Parker

Page 26 of 38 (760 items) « First ... < Previous 24 25 26 27 28 Next > ... Last » | RSS