No NEW Journals - why not?

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This post has 756 Replies | 26 Followers

Posts 1837
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 8:37 PM

Mark:
Ben, are you the head of the Journal TEAM working on this project? Or is it Phil? Or someone else?

I'm the Vice President for our Bible Study Products strategic business unit.

I'm responsible (with my teams) for business and product strategy and management for the following lines of business:

General

  1. Discourse
  2. Faithlife Audio
  3. Faithlife Connect
  4. Faithlife Courses
  5. Faithlife Ebooks
  6. Noet
  7. Lexham (Logos)
  8. Logos
  9. Logos Cloud
  10. Logos Mobile Education

Denominations/Traditions

  1. Anglican
  2. Baptist
  3. Lutheran
  4. Methodist and Wesleyan
  5. Orthodox
  6. Pentecostal and Charismatic
  7. Reformed
  8. Seventh-Day Adventist
  9. Verbum and Verbum Cloud

Languages

  1. Chinese
  2. French
  3. German
  4. Korean
  5. Portuguese
  6. Software Biblico Logos

and the following applications:

  1. Logos desktop app (Windows and Mac)
  2. Logos web app
  3. Logos mobile app (iOS and Android)
  4. Biblia mobile app (iOS and Android)
  5. Verbum desktop (Windows and Mac)
  6. Verbum web app
  7. Verbum mobile app (iOS and Android)
  8. Noet desktop (Windows and Mac)
  9. Noet web app
  10. Noet mobile app (iOS and Android)
  11. Biblia.com
  12. Faithlife Study Bible web app
  13. Faithlife Study Bible mobile app (iOS and Android)
  14. Faithlife Audio mobile app (iOS and Android)
  15. Faithlife Courses web app
  16. Faithlife Ebooks mobile app (iOS and Android)
  17. Flashcards mobile app (iOS and Android)

and the following web stores:

  1. https://www.logos.com/
  2. https://www.logos.com/es (becoming https://es.logos.com/ soon)
  3. https://de.logos.com/
  4. http://pt.logos.com/
  5. https://kr.logos.com/
  6. http://tc.logos.com/
  7. https://sc.logos.com/
  8. https://verbum.com/
  9. https://es.verbum.com/
  10. https://noet.com/
  11. https://ebooks.noet.com/
  12. https://ebooks.faithlife.com/
  13. https://audio.faithlife.com/ (coming soon)
  14. https://courses.faithlife.com/ (coming soon)
  15. https://connect.faithlife.com/
  16. https://logoscloud.com/

Ben works for me and directs our products department and oversees the individuals who manage most of these lines of business, the product managers for our apps, and the team that managing our Community Pricing, Pre-Publication, and Pre-Order programs.

We don't have a dedicated team for journals. The team who handles journals is the same team that managing our Community Pricing, Pre-Publication, and Pre-Order programs. This is just one small area that fits into the Logos line of business.

Posts 1837
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 8:51 PM

Mark Smith:
Agreed, but that didn't seem to be the case for Galaxie. What's the difference?

Cost. Galaxie produced their journals mainly using scripts to convert Word documents into Logos resources. We spend significantly more building and tagging our journals, which is what enables richer functionality with the journal labeling markup for label searching and the Journals guide section.

We've discussed delivering the Galaxie journals at a lower standard of tagging and functionality, which would mean they wouldn't work with the Journals guide section and label searching (in addition to other features enabled by advanced tagging). If we did that, we'd probably have sufficient funding to ship them now, though I'd have to double-check to be sure. Would you prefer that to waiting for funding to be reached to produce full Logos editions?

Posts 1837
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 9:01 PM

Nathan Parker:
To expedite the funding/releasing of new journal bundles by FL, offer an all-access subscription service to all back issues of the journals, as well as any new issues that are offered. I know for us who invested in the back issues we've be paying for subscription access to the back issues as well, but at least it would give us access to all new journal issues. Those who subscribe to Galaxie now (like I do) are already double-paying since I own the back issues in Logos and are paying Galaxie to subscribe for access to the latest editions. 

A Netflix-style subscription to journals is on our list for consideration for 2019. We have the systems support to do it, but we'd need to secure subscription licensing permissions from each of the rights holders to pull it off. That's probably doable, but would take some work.

Posts 10228
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 9:02 PM

Well, no offense to Phil or his folks. But the last day or so is truly amazing.  It's like a detective story .... the comments about the regularity of the journals, while shipping below cost. And new prepubs just sitting until someone asked (and asked).

As it stands, the program looks pretty dead. CP looks less dead.

I'm in the group just happy for lots of great reading. It was definitely worth it.


Posts 1935
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 9:05 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Mark Smith:
Agreed, but that didn't seem to be the case for Galaxie. What's the difference?

Cost. Galaxie produced their journals mainly using scripts to convert Word documents into Logos resources. We spend significantly more building and tagging our journals, which is what enables richer functionality with the journal labeling markup for label searching and the Journals guide section.

We've discussed delivering the Galaxie journals at a lower standard of tagging and functionality, which would mean they wouldn't work with the Journals guide section and label searching (in addition to other features enabled by advanced tagging). If we did that, we'd probably have sufficient funding to ship them now, though I'd have to double-check to be sure. Would you prefer that to waiting for funding to be reached to produce full Logos editions?

I personally would be willing to go for it to get the journals back into Logos. The tagging/guide access is an OK plus, but honestly, I don't heavily use them with the journals. I've gotten to the point where I run my own custom searches against the journals using the stock Logos search operators (since I was doing that before you offered the tagging/guide access), and I can personally just as easily find what I need using those searches than I can with the guides or special tagging (in some instances, I can find what I need faster using this approach anyway).

The only issue I had with the journals that Galaxie offered in Logos was the bibliography citations in documents weren't great, so I had to go back and edit them. Now that I use a citation manager and pre-enter everything into it, this is one less issue I have now.

Honestly if the best you can offer short term is what Galaxie offered with only the functionality they offered in Logos and nothing else, I'd take it to get current journals. The rest were OK pluses, but not essential for my studies.

Nathan Parker

Posts 1935
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 9:06 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Nathan Parker:
To expedite the funding/releasing of new journal bundles by FL, offer an all-access subscription service to all back issues of the journals, as well as any new issues that are offered. I know for us who invested in the back issues we've be paying for subscription access to the back issues as well, but at least it would give us access to all new journal issues. Those who subscribe to Galaxie now (like I do) are already double-paying since I own the back issues in Logos and are paying Galaxie to subscribe for access to the latest editions. 

A Netflix-style subscription to journals is on our list for consideration for 2019. We have the systems support to do it, but we'd need to secure subscription licensing permissions from each of the rights holders to pull it off. That's probably doable, but would take some work.

Would you have to go individually to the rights holders or could you get them from Galaxie (even if the functionality is reduced)?

Nathan Parker

Posts 106
pk47 | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 9:44 PM

I would be willing to take a less than usual Logos-standard-offering if that meant we could get them sooner. The cheaper element doesn't sound too bad either. 

Posts 297
Charlene | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 23 2018 11:24 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
I'm responsible (with my teams) for business and product strategy and management for the following lines of business:

General

  1. Discourse
  2. Faithlife Audio
  3. Faithlife Connect
  4. Faithlife Courses
  5. Faithlife Ebooks
  6. Noet
  7. Lexham (Logos)
  8. Logos
  9. Logos Cloud
  10. Logos Mobile Education

Denominations/Traditions

  1. Anglican
  2. Baptist
  3. Lutheran
  4. Methodist and Wesleyan
  5. Orthodox
  6. Pentecostal and Charismatic
  7. Reformed
  8. Seventh-Day Adventist
  9. Verbum and Verbum Cloud

Languages

  1. Chinese
  2. French
  3. German
  4. Korean
  5. Portuguese
  6. Software Biblico Logos

and the following applications:

  1. Logos desktop app (Windows and Mac)
  2. Logos web app
  3. Logos mobile app (iOS and Android)
  4. Biblia mobile app (iOS and Android)
  5. Verbum desktop (Windows and Mac)
  6. Verbum web app
  7. Verbum mobile app (iOS and Android)
  8. Noet desktop (Windows and Mac)
  9. Noet web app
  10. Noet mobile app (iOS and Android)
  11. Biblia.com
  12. Faithlife Study Bible web app
  13. Faithlife Study Bible mobile app (iOS and Android)
  14. Faithlife Audio mobile app (iOS and Android)
  15. Faithlife Courses web app
  16. Faithlife Ebooks mobile app (iOS and Android)
  17. Flashcards mobile app (iOS and Android)

and the following web stores:

  1. https://www.logos.com/
  2. https://www.logos.com/es (becoming https://es.logos.com/ soon)
  3. https://de.logos.com/
  4. http://pt.logos.com/
  5. https://kr.logos.com/
  6. http://tc.logos.com/
  7. https://sc.logos.com/
  8. https://verbum.com/
  9. https://es.verbum.com/
  10. https://noet.com/
  11. https://ebooks.noet.com/
  12. https://ebooks.faithlife.com/
  13. https://audio.faithlife.com/ (coming soon)
  14. https://courses.faithlife.com/ (coming soon)
  15. https://connect.faithlife.com/
  16. https://logoscloud.com/

Ben works for me and directs our products department and oversees the individuals who manage most of these lines of business, the product managers for our apps, and the team that managing our Community Pricing, Pre-Publication, and Pre-Order programs.

We don't have a dedicated team for journals. The team who handles journals is the same team that managing our Community Pricing, Pre-Publication, and Pre-Order programs. This is just one small area that fits into the Logos line of business.

And I would say that concerning the long list above, that THIS is the problem! In the beginning, Logos focused on books and they did that "business" well. Then they started adding a new "business" and then "another new business line" and then denominational lines and also some extra tools and features and etc., etc., etc....more staff had to be added, thus salaries and benefits needed to be added to the budget and more customer service, etc., etc., etc....yes the company grew, but at what cost? Reality is the cost went up, but the quality went down.

Most of us just wanted to have a Bible software program that worked well, with a library where books could be added, and that was a successful model that Logos had. Journals back then wouldn't have been a problem. It "fit" the business line. Then journals were taken out, due to "poor tagging," and yet we haven't gotten anything consistently since. And I have to say, it is usually "the norm" that when I check on a footnote, it appears that I do not have the resource, since it is not tagged as such....and just before I go to Amazon to get the needed book (due to desperation for something needed in a class), I check my Logos library, and lo and behold, the book is there! I had the book all along, but the resource that I was in did not have it tagged to show me this. This has happened countless times. So tagging has not been that great, in my opinion.

So, do we want journals with less tagging? If that will get them in our hands immediately, then ABSOLUTELY!

I don't want to "start a war." This is just my opinion. I have been with Logos from the early days of CD Word and I have seen the changes. I love Logos and have put many thousands of dollars into the company. But something has to change. It can't continue to go in this direction. When journals "returned," they were immediately sold and produced. But as delays and unkept promises continued these past few years,, people have gone elsewhere to get their journals. I too had to get a Galaxie subscription for a few months, as I needed journals for school. I would rather not do a subscription and just buy my electronic journals with Logos. Nowadays I don't have a lot of money, but what I do have,, I would like it to go to Logos.

Please, Logos, rethink your position on journals. Please figure out a way to get them "back" into your line of "business."

Thanks for hearing me out.

Posts 4772
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 24 2018 12:33 AM

Mark Barnes:

If it takes this long to get enough orders, then the pre-pubs should be launched 9-12 months earlier to ensure there isn’t an unnecessary delay.

This idea makes too much sense...it will never fly.

Charlene:
And I would say that concerning the long list above, that THIS is the problem!

Y'think? Idea I don't know...I don't think that absurdly long list is as absurd as it seems--that would be absurd!! Surprise

Posts 413
Jordan Litchfield | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 24 2018 1:23 AM

I've been wondering for a while it would be more cost effective for me to purchase base packages with journals than to purchase just a journal bundle. For example, the next base package up for me to acquire is Logos 7 Diamond with a dynamic price of $764. From a glance through the journals included in that package and comparing that to the MJB, it would seem that quite a lot of the journals in the MJB are included in Diamond (though certainly not all journals, nor the most recent volumes). The MJB 4.1 would cost me $1,132 currently.

Are the journals slightly more discounted in a base package than in a journal bundle? It's just looking like people could get more for their dollar through base packages. But maybe I'm not reading that correctly.

Posts 691
Kevin A Lewis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 24 2018 3:13 AM

Charlene:

So, do we want journals with less tagging? If that will get them in our hands immediately, then ABSOLUTELY!

I also agree - and a careful reading of many of the post hear would suggest a similar sentiment.

But - WHY have we got to this state.

This is a radical question - but has Logos software (with such tagging) developed itself into a commercial corner.!!!!!

I would hate to think so but if the tagging is what is putting the cost price of a regular and frequent supply of journals beyond what can be sustained ( by Faithlife or Buyers) then we really do have a problem.

Let me also say I bought Logos 'primarily' as I was (at the time) convinced they were committed to a regular and frequent supply of quality journals. The books were all extra. If I don't by another Logos book again I wouldn't be too concerned - but I would if there were no more Journals.

Shalom

Posts 691
Kevin A Lewis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 24 2018 3:13 AM

Charlene:

So, do we want journals with less tagging? If that will get them in our hands immediately, then ABSOLUTELY!

I also agree - and a careful reading of many of the posts here would suggest a similar sentiment.

But - WHY have we got to this state.

This is a radical question - but has Logos software (with such tagging) developed itself into a commercial corner.!!!!! ?

I would hate to think so, but if the tagging is what is putting the cost price of a regular and frequent supply of journals beyond what can be sustained ( by Faithlife or Buyers) then we really do have a problem.

Let me also say I bought Logos 'primarily' as I was (at the time) convinced they were committed to a regular and frequent supply of quality journals. The books bought were all extra. If I don't by another Logos book again I wouldn't be too concerned - but I would if there were no more Journals.

Shalom

Posts 487
John Duffy | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 24 2018 4:47 AM

Mark Smith:
What is needed is this: an annual update for each journal bundle, available every year, produced in a timely fashion, and with that year's journals only. No pre-pubs, just produce it and offer it for sale. Have the journal bundles no longer increment. Make them a separate purchase and let people buy them if they want the older journals, plus any annual updates to bring them up-to-date.

I Agree.

Charlene:
So, do we want journals with less tagging? If that will get them in our hands immediately, then ABSOLUTELY!

Absolutely! Reliable, regular and timely delivery is more important than tagging.

Something needs to change! 

The Pre-Pub process is killing demand because users don't want to wait indefinitely for journals to be available. They go elsewhere. Journals are time-sensitive, in a way that other resources are not. The Pre-Pub process is a great business model for other resources, but it is dysfunctional for journals. Please ditch that business model for journals and provide them regularly, reliably on time, and in lower cost updates. Demand will increase, customers will be happy, and Faithlife will make more sales. 

The suggested Netflix style subscription option would be great for those new to journals. I'm not so keen on it personally, having spent so much on journals already, unless it would have dynamic pricing. Yet, that would be a great secondary way to make journals available. 

Posts 640
Michael S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 24 2018 5:34 AM

Nathan Parker:
The tagging/guide access is an OK plus, but honestly, I don't heavily use them with the journals. I've gotten to the point where I run my own custom searches against the journals using the stock Logos search operators (since I was doing that before you offered the tagging/guide access), and I can personally just as easily find what I need using those searches than I can with the guides or special tagging (in some instances, I can find what I need faster using this approach anyway).

Hey Nathan, I have questions about this. By "tagging" does that mean if I do a Search in "All Resources" or "Journal Collection", if it is not "tagged", I wont get search results?

Posts 3270
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 24 2018 5:49 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Mark Smith:
Agreed, but that didn't seem to be the case for Galaxie. What's the difference?

Cost. Galaxie produced their journals mainly using scripts to convert Word documents into Logos resources. We spend significantly more building and tagging our journals, which is what enables richer functionality with the journal labeling markup for label searching and the Journals guide section.

We've discussed delivering the Galaxie journals at a lower standard of tagging and functionality, which would mean they wouldn't work with the Journals guide section and label searching (in addition to other features enabled by advanced tagging). If we did that, we'd probably have sufficient funding to ship them now, though I'd have to double-check to be sure. Would you prefer that to waiting for funding to be reached to produce full Logos editions?

Can you elaborate on this a little more? What does less tagging entail?  Would the journals still appear in a passage guide section what would relate to the article?  If these are being brought down to the level of FLEB books then I don't see how this would be better but I might be in the minority at that point.

Posts 3270
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 24 2018 5:53 AM

Mark Smith:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
Occasionally we promote them to try to drive more funding. But other than that, no one is actively working on them. We're waiting for sufficient funding levels to be reached.

Phil,

This is simply a disaster. Please rethink how you are handling journals. FL's addiction to prepub is killing this product which just doesn't fit that sort of funding model. A book, lexicon, commentary? Yes. Journals which must be published in a timely way? Pre-pub doesn't work. 

Why could Galaxie manage to stay in business without prepub and FL with all it's size and resources can't find a way to make annual updates work? I don't buy it.

I made a point similar to this earlier but I think prepub is hurting a lot more than journals. There are incomplete commentary sets sitting in Logos due to prepub as well as books that might very well sell well overtime but people aren't willing to put a yes on something and wait two years for it to appear in their account when they can just buy it elsewhere.

Posts 301
Jerry Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 24 2018 6:04 AM

Nathan Parker:
Honestly if the best you can offer short term is what Galaxie offered with only the functionality they offered in Logos and nothing else, I'd take it to get current journals. The rest were OK pluses, but not essential for my studies.

Definitely able to work with Galaxie formatting and having current journals is the key!

Posts 1961
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 24 2018 6:25 AM

Thank you, Phil, for your response.

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
We don't have a dedicated team for journals. The team who handles journals is the same team that managing our Community Pricing, Pre-Publication, and Pre-Order programs. This is just one small area that fits into the Logos line of business.

This is an interesting response

According to this forum thread, on August 15, 2017 at 3:21 PM, Ben wrote the following:

Ben Amundgaard (Faithlife):
We are still working on this project. I'm sorry it keeps getting pushed back. However, we now have one person who will own the project going forward, which means it won't have to fight for the attention of multiple stakeholders.


This would seem to indicate that someone has been assigned by you and Ben to own the project.  I guess from your post, that is no longer the case?

Everything that has been written seems to indicate that this project is dead and FL does not have any interest in it unless it receives pre-pub funds to move forward.

My last question which I think has been alluded to already by others...why does this project have to be part of the pre-pub process?  Not everything passes through the pre-pub process.  Why is this project going that route? 

Posts 1434
Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 24 2018 6:33 AM

Is it possible to forward journals to Faithlife ebooks and deliver them in timely manner with price reduced since no more tagging would be involved? That would eliminate pre-pub... 

"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill 

Posts 2062
Forum MVP
Randy W. Sims | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 24 2018 6:40 AM

Mattillo:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Mark Smith:
Agreed, but that didn't seem to be the case for Galaxie. What's the difference?

Cost. Galaxie produced their journals mainly using scripts to convert Word documents into Logos resources. We spend significantly more building and tagging our journals, which is what enables richer functionality with the journal labeling markup for label searching and the Journals guide section.

We've discussed delivering the Galaxie journals at a lower standard of tagging and functionality, which would mean they wouldn't work with the Journals guide section and label searching (in addition to other features enabled by advanced tagging). If we did that, we'd probably have sufficient funding to ship them now, though I'd have to double-check to be sure. Would you prefer that to waiting for funding to be reached to produce full Logos editions?

Can you elaborate on this a little more? What does less tagging entail?  Would the journals still appear in a passage guide section what would relate to the article?  If these are being brought down to the level of FLEB books then I don't see how this would be better but I might be in the minority at that point.

Correct. Full text search would still work, but no special tagging that would bring it up in guides, etc. I'm in the minority with you. I want the journals complete with tagging and on time without the prepub process and discount. It just needs to be done. It just doesn't seem like it's good for FL or anyone for it not to be made available, timely, whatever the cost. 

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